Helmet on road?

Do you wear steel toe capped safety shoes every time you go to Tescos in case something runs over or falls on your foot?

You have to weigh up the liklihood of injury versus the severity of it. I’m not that likely to smack my head when I get on my bike, but if I do it could have terrible consequences. Far more so than a broken or even a lost foot.

I could also wear a full face helmet on my bike, but I don’t because there’s a compromise between protection and discomfort.

NO MOLLY NO

You cannot just wear a helmet you must go everywhere in armour or your argument is bollocks apparently

Ormondroy] that caricature is not aimed firmly at you as you at least explain your view well but it is still a crap argument

Can I argue if you dont shop in tescos in open toes sandals then non helmet wearers are hypocrites

As above – my elbows aren’t as valuable as my brain.

You’re assuming that a helmet would prevent a brain injury. Far more likely that it would stop a trip to A&E for stitches.

His looks are important tot him as well you know

Can I argue if you dont shop in tescos in open toes sandals then non helmet wearers are hypocrites

You’ve kind of lost me.

we need some trials, can I have some volunteers to have their heads smashed into the tarmac, your choice helmet or not.

FWIW last time a car hit me the driver got out and punched me, thankfully he hit my helmet. I’ll wear one again.

Also with all of these I wonder if the law forbid the wearing of helmets how many would wear one just to prove that they could stick it to the man 😉

You’re assuming that a helmet would prevent a brain injury. Far more likely that it would stop a trip to A&E for stitches

I think that it’s reasonable to assume a helmet would lessen brain injury, don’t you?

That inch of polystyrene isn’t much, but it’s a big improvement over what you’ve got without it. It deforms and gives your brain a lot more distance in which to slow down. I reckon it’d make a significant difference.

can I have some volunteers to have their heads smashed into the tarmac, your choice helmet or not.

Same argument as the hammer one – it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

As before, anyone who thinks the issue is common-sense or black-and-white probably hasn’t considered it properly.

it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

I’m very sceptical of that research, to be honest.

I think that it’s reasonable to assume a helmet would lessen brain injury, don’t you?

I’m not sure: is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

I’m very sceptical of that research, to be honest.

Risk compensation is very easy to prove – I’ve seen many people on this very forum say things like “He’s mad. No way I ride that without a helmet.”

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-people-refuse-to-wear-helmets/page/5#postform http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wiggo-on-helmets http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-do-you-deal-with-folk-not-wearing-a-helmet http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-helmet-for-kids http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-you-helmet-nazi-content#post-3139927 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-another-study-on-the-efficacy-of-bike-helmets#post-3128520 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/thank-god-for-helmets#post-3071801 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-i-decided-to-write-off-my-helmet-today#post-3015561 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/will-the-uk-every-be-like-this#post-3001646 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-helmet#post-2983986 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-helmet-is-very-deformed-graphic-photo-content#post-2963127 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-woman-who-tragically-died-in-dent-on-the-letjog-ride#post-2956453 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-2#post-2941835 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cyclist-hit-15-times-with-hammer-by-driverfor-riding-too-slow-up-a-hill#post-2943106 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-really-makes-you-want-to-wear-a-lid#post-2919841 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/good-or-bad-advert#post-2894537 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/james-cracknell-wear-a-helmet-video#post-2783611 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bmxers-idiots#post-2758996 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/motorcyclist-protesting-helmet-laws-dies-in-bike-crash-while-not-wearing-helmet/page/3 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wear-a-helmet-kids#post-2705179 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-helmet-debate-on-radio-2-now#post-2584202 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-helmets-were-to-be-made-compulsory#post-2573922 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-on-your-child-always#post-2482018 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/some-very-sad-news#post-2476001 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-great-helmet-debate#post-2432920 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/kids-cycling-to-school-without-helmets-is-it-me-or#post-2368335 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsory-helmet-law-in-ni#post-2236497 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-smug-will-tj-be http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-possibly-the-last-word http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-else-hear-peter-thatchel-on-jeremy-vine-calling-for-compulsary-helmets/page/2

I’m not sure: is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

Well there’s two issues there.

1) In a laboratory test, I’m sure that a helmet would reduce the forces. I don’t know if anyone’s published that though

2) Real world stats are not the same thing, because many other factors are at play, some possibly unknown and un-noticed.

it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

Both sides here are arguing like TJ
What helmets cause me to crash do they – they unbalance me that much I can no longer stay upright …just to prove the point 😉

is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

See bias point above if I could prove this you would simply argue I cannot replicate it…the studies dont include those saved- brain injury may well be at the upper end of the protection a helmet can give to be fair in an accident and like I say the minor bumps not reported to hospital are all absent from the data set

GrahamS your argument is now using safety equipment which allows you to perform a task more safely causes injury…have you run this past the HSE 😛

I am not saying there is not a point to your argument ] but each side presents its case like the other side dont have a point when they do, They often overstate their case and use stupid examples to highlight this

If neither side had a point and some evidence we would not be having the debate

Better to accept that arguments can be made either way and explain your own personal choice
Mine being i dont think it will save my life but it has stopped me being more injured so I will wear it

Who really 100% feels unsafe on the road? Years of riding motorcycles have made me quite defensive so I keep an eye out for car doors opening, am aware of people coming out of turnings and so on. My commute is cyclepath – park – cyclepath – bus lanes – a little bit of road in traffic and then park again to work. I’d say I’m in the line of fire for no more than 3 miles of a 14 mile ride. I just don’t feel the need, yes there is always the worst case scenario to consider but that would most likely involve someone hitting me head on in a car at speed and I really think I’d be buggered helmet or not. I think it’s a personal choice but unlike smoking or prodding a grizzly bear with a sharp stick I don’t think the likely outcome is as bad as many make out. If helmets were essential you’d have to wear them to hire a Boris and you don’t, so they aren’t otherwise there’d be litigation going on all over from unhelmeted hire bike users. I’m not saying they don’t protect I’m simply saying protect me from what exactly, I’m bimbling along at 15-20mph mostly and I’m careful so I can stop before I get into trouble, it’s a bicycle not a FZR 1000 after all.

I am not saying there is not a point to your argument ] but each side presents its case like the other side dont have a point when they do

Not at all. I fully accept there is a good case for helmets and I generally wear one myself (as stated earlier).

I just find all the shouts of “darwinism, lunacy, foolish, use commonsense” etc to be a bit patronising and hugely over-simplified.

The real situation, as always, is far more nuanced.

If helmets were essential you’d have to wear them to hire a Boris and you don’t, so they aren’t.

I don’t think they are essential, but its my head and I want to protect it. I’ve trashed 3 helmets and I consider the pounds I’ve spent on them well spent.

I haven’t seen in my eyes an argument yet for me not to wear one.

Anyway I’ve not seen anything that merits wearing one.

But you probably will that split second before your bonce impacts something and you wish that you had worn one.

Anyway, I’m amazed at the tripe that’s being spouted here both for and against. A helmet probably won’t safe your life or prevent a serious brain injury, despite what both the informed and uninformed claim. What it will do is increase your chances of surviving an accident to a greater or lesser degree. And that’s all it will do.

Personally, I never sling a leg over a bike without strapping a brain bucket on first. I have a very broad sense of self preservation and TBH I’d rather look like a sweaty, uncool, bad-haired bell-end (pipe down at the back) than have to rely on someone else to wipe my arse for me or spoon feed me, or worse be dead (if that isn’t a spurious argument in itself because I probably wouldn’t care about much if I was dead…)

I often have arguments with friends who ride motorcycles in hot weather wearing shorts and t-shirts (and ironically full race gloves…) when I’m sweating like a sex-pest in my full leathers. If I have a bad enough accident I’ll probably end up with broken limbs and internal injuries, but at least whoever has to pick me up won’t have to be scraping me off the tarmac in bloody chunks, and I stand a better chance of surviving if my mangled carcass is relatively in one piece.

But then what do I know – experience, intuition and common sense count for very little these days…

Then all I can say is you need to be more careful. I’ve trashed one helmet riding off road in over 25 years and thousands of miles including 15 years on motorcycles (broken plenty of bones and had no end of wounds though). Perhaps the real issue here is untrained, unaware people taking to the roads without a clue about what they are doing and getting into a pickle. Also I’m noticing a steady increase in the price of these things a reasonable helmet now costing more than a proper full face motorbike lid. It smells of marketing to me. A simple truth is don’t take risks on the road, the consequences can be fatal but I take risks on the MTB hence the helmet.

common sense count for very little

Yup, just like that. Thanks for the example john.

Our British culture, and most others (with a few exceptions) has firmly internalised the notion that cycling is a relatively hazardous activity, and should be treated as such.

And yet the cultures that have *not* done that are the ones where cycling is safest, AND where it is treated best by policy makers.

There’s a bit of chicken and egg in that, of course, but that doesn’t invalidate the point.

As a result, we’ve gone beyond any real sensible consideration of risk, to a point where “no helmets are bad mmkay”, cyclists are expected to wear high viz (yet black coloured cars are fine), and it’s exclusively the job of the cyclist to make cycling safer. When stuff happens, it’s treated in a non-ideal way because “cycling is dangerous” and “he should have been wearing a lid/vest”.

Sensible consideration of whether to wear a helmet might go along the lines of “well, if I’m going to be doing 25mph on a club run, where I might touch wheels and go down fast, then a helmet might be an idea… whereas when I potter to the shop at 15mph I think I’m fine not to bother”. Instead it’s quite normal to people to look at a picture of an experienced cyclist climbing a big feckoff mountain at 6.5mph and tut because his lid is on the bars.

Seatbelts are often used as a parallel example but they’re really not. The survival improvements from seatbelt use are orders of magnitude higher than those from cycle helmets. It’s made a HUGE difference.

The fact is, cycling is NOWHERE NEAR as dangerous in itself as it’s made out to be, but there are plenty of vested interests in making it seem so (hence oil companies – who will of course be DIRECTLY and strongly impacted by an uptake in cycling – sponsoring helmet schemes and doing what they can to reinforce that perception).

I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s a BAD idea to wear a helmet and in many circumstances it’s a very sensible one. But a bit of proportion and focus-shifting would really really, REALLY be good for cycling.

The Health Impact of Mandatory Bicycle Helmet Laws

Author(s) de Jong P.

Citation: Risk Analysis, May 2012, vol./is. 32/5(782-790), 0272-4332;1539-6924 (May 2012)

Publication Date: May 2012

Abstract: This article seeks to answer the question whether mandatory bicycle helmet laws deliver a net societal health benefit. The question is addressed using a simple model. The model recognizes a single health benefit-reduced head injuries-and a single health cost-increased morbidity due to foregone exercise from reduced cycling. Using estimates suggested in the literature on the effectiveness of helmets, the health benefits of cycling, head injury rates, and reductions in cycling leads to the following conclusions. In jurisdictions where cycling is safe, a helmet law is likely to have a large unintended negative health impact. In jurisdictions where cycling is relatively unsafe, helmets will do little to make it safer and a helmet law, under relatively extreme assumptions, may make a small positive contribution to net societal health. The model serves to focus the mandatory bicycle helmet law debate on overall health

What’s Britain then? Safe for cycling? If not, is helemt wearing really helping make you safe?

I often have arguments with friends who ride motorcycles in hot weather wearing shorts and t-shirts (and ironically full race gloves…)

You’ve described my summer motorcycling attire perfectly.

I wear a helmet road or off road. Do I think it will do me much good? Well actually no I dont.

Offroad I have never yet to land on my head in any crash. There are very few falls that if you learn to crash properly that you should end up throwing your head at the nearest available rock. On road I think there is more chance of hitting your head, as you are less in control of the crash etc.

As to the “well I had a crash, and look at my helmet its in pieces, I would have died if I hadnt been wearing it”

Are you sure? Heads are quite tough things. Simplistically put,ram a helmet in to a brick wall and it will fall apart quicker and be more damaged than ramming a head in to a brick wall.

I still would love to see stats on serious injury from cycling. I bet head injuries is pretty far down the list.

What’s Britain then? Safe for cycling?

Yes. It could and should be much better, but cycling’s pretty safe.

I’m not saying they don’t protect I’m simply saying protect me from what exactly

SMIDSY

Heads are quite tough things

Not really.

Your skull is tough-ish, but that’s not the problem. It’s your brain banging about inside it and getting hurt that causes the problem and spoon-feeding/bum-wiping scenario.

I bet head injuries is pretty far down the list.

If you consider injuries with serious life-changing implications, I bet they’re not.

My father inlaw fell off his bike and hit his head. He wasn’t wearing a helmet. He died.

As for the head being soft and whatever. Think of it like this – your skull is hard, anything that is injured likes to swell up or bleed. If your brain swells up or bleeds that swelling or blood has nowhere to go. This leads to a build up of pressure in your brain which kills damages your brain even further and often leads to death.

‘m noticing a steady increase in the price of these things a reasonable helmet now costing more than a proper full face motorbike lid. It smells of marketing to me.

Yep – do we think that a top-end helmet REALLY costs that much more to produce?

Met Buddy – £16

Lazer Helium – £162

Pretty much the same basic materials, similar manufacturing requirements and process, similar safety tests and standards to pass.

And the Lazer doesn’t even have the little net to stop bees getting in your hair!

Onehundredandsixtytwoquid!

Okay, the vested interests are clearly not just with the motoring lobby.

SMIDSY? It’s your job to see them not the other way round, that’s my point if you ride defensively there’s hardly any risk..

Well there’s two issues there.

1) In a laboratory test, I’m sure that a helmet would reduce the forces. I don’t know if anyone’s published that though

2) Real world stats are not the same thing, because many other factors are at play, some possibly unknown and un-noticed.

Indeed, but as far as I’m concerned, what happens is what matters.

My father inlaw fell off his bike and hit his head. He wasn’t wearing a helmet. He died.

My sympathies, but it’s irrelevant to the debate. People who don’t wear helmets are not ignorant of this, in fact I’d say they’re even more aware of the potential consequences. I know I am.

Our British culture, and most others (with a few exceptions) has firmly internalised the notion that cycling is a relatively hazardous activity, and should be treated as such.

Yes, I think that’s the biggest argument against helmets actually. Cycling really should be seen as a normal, cheap, relatively safe way of getting from A to B. Because it is.

There’s this sign on my commute. Wonder how many of those signs they need in Holland…
(not getting drawn into helmet debate, as there is no debate!)

Just relate a tale………
Its from climbing, several years ago well in fact over 30 years ago 8 of us went up to Dow crag to climb a few routes. The 4 teams climbing different routes to a similar belay on a ledge just short of the top. One lad a certain Bob Stamper always wore a helmet, everyone bar BVob were ensconced on the ledge when he arrived. As it was a hot day, well at least hot for the Lakes, Bob was rather sweaty off came the helmet at which point a largish rock knocked off by someone above hit him on the head.

Moral of the story,,,,,,,,,,,,

Dont climb at Dow with someone above you 🙂

Always. Far too many idiots behind the wheel of a 50 MPH Killing machine these days…

And the Lazer doesn’t even have the little net to stop bees getting in your hair!

would the nets not need to be considerably further back to stop them reaching your hair 😉

under relatively extreme assumptions, may make a small positive contribution to net societal health. The model serves to focus the mandatory bicycle helmet law debate on overall health

What’s Britain then? Safe for cycling? If not, is helemt wearing really helping make you safe?
The net societal benefit could be positive but that could mena I die whilst fatty mc Fatty and her husband start excercising and they get healthy so the net benefit is 1 and I am still dead
The effects of mass participation do not impact on whether a helmet will protect me when i crash as they are not related

Furthermore as no one is arguing for compulsion your point is entirely redundant

FWIW I dont doubt mass particiaption and more cyclists make me safer however there is no causal link between this and the protective power of the helmet

would the nets not need to be considerably further back to stop them reaching your hair

I should probably stress that any discussion of “hair” from me is purely theoretical. 😀

however there is no causal link between this and the protective power of the helmet

But there is a causal link between wearing a helmet and how fast you cycle, where you are prepared to cycle, how you approach hazards, and how you will be treated by other road users.

Again it is a balance its a reasonable point that without a helmet plenty of downhills would not be ridden by me so I do accept it changes my behaviour

I prefer to spin it as enabling though 😉

A seat belt enables me to get in a car

Gloves and eye protectors to use an angle grinder etc

They do alter behaviour but it is complex. Feeling safer makes you do something risky…its quite a beautiful paradox hence we can debate for ever

I think most of us agree that things need to be done to improve roads, we largely choose to wear helmets, we are not pro compulsion and we think it will reduce injury rather than save a life

I just find all the shouts of “darwinism, lunacy, foolish, use commonsense” etc to be a bit patronising and hugely over-simplified.

It’s become no more than a trend. One that requires no thought, just verbal abuse directed towards anyone daring not to wear a helmet.

I have read many accounts of incidents on these (and other) forums where crashes have resulted in spinal injuries and sometimes life changing consequences. The facts and figures I don’t have at hand, but these accounts far outweigh those I’ve read about serious head injuries. Yet how many people go out riding without spine protection? Do they get scoffed at and called an idiot? No.

What is the difference and where does it end?

The thing is, if I drove to work in a helmet, I’d also be called an idiot. So surely it’s got nothing to do with my safety?

It’s nothing more than an accepted social norm to berate bare-headed cyclists, even when the benefits of helmets are still largely unproven.