Helmet on road?

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  • Helmet on road?
  • Premier Icon adsh
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    I highsided on a roundabout after some spirited cornering (translation – showing off). Not very fast but from quite a height. Big bang, saw double and groggy for 15s. Giro wrecked.

    Would definately have been out cold without lid.

    Junkyard
    Member

    how far would you have to walk before it would be a “no brainer” to wear a helmet?

    I assume the deaths from pedestrians largely involve an interface with a large vehicle propelled at speed rather than the walker falling over and banging their head – though I am sure there are some of those

    I guess the risk of falling would need to be higher and the damage risk from that fall much higher tbh

    On the bike i will be going much faster and have a larger force impact if I fall. I assume if i was to start falling every day I would get a head injury from cycling faster than from walking as cycling is more dangerous [ as it is faster] than walking

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Would it surprise you to know that many climbers (and not just the elite) solo routes on a routine basis?

    I’ve read of a couple of famous elite climbers who died soloing ridiculously simple routes.

    Anyway. When I fall off off-road I tend to to make a managed landing, so I tend not to hit my head. If I get taken out by a car there’s likely to be far less control, so the chance of my flailing head hitting something hard seem fairly significant.

    Anyway, if you always wear one it ceases to become an issue. I wear trousers, I wear shorts, I wear a top, I wear gloves, a camelbak, shoes and a helmet. It’s just what I do. Can’t remember the last time I thought ‘I wish I didn’t have my helmet on’.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Would it surprise you to know that many climbers (and not just the elite) solo routes on a routine basis?

    I knew someone who soloed with a helmet …never saw the point of that

    On your broader point i guess if i always rode within my limits then i would be less likely to wear one
    I have ridden locally without one as mate forgot his and would not ride without it so the others there took turns in lending him theirs for descents – I got San Marino /Belmont as was deffo slower than normal but was still some way from mincing

    It is just something i do like wearing a seat belt it may make little difference. some or none but it is generally prudent to wear one and is not really that much hassle or annoying.

    Will it save my life, Unlikely but it has already reduced the severity of my injuries

    Not a climber but lived with them in Wales so some knowledge

    Premier Icon cookeaa
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    This thread has a TJ shaped hole ๐Ÿ™ …

    Needless to say, it’s personal choice, and yes helmets are of diminishing benefits above about ~12Mph, So thinking that it will save you from a car doing upwards of 40Mph is probably a bit wishful, it may mitigate, it may have no benefit, it could actually lead to worse injuries (depending on which studies you choose to believe / discount) it’s an open ended debate and of course all depends on what sort of life threatening accidents you are planning on having…

    of course it doesn’t have to be a high speed incident that kills your noggin to bits. You are probably more likely to have some sort of accident on the road at lower speeds when approaching / leaving junctions or roundabouts as these tend to be the places where traffic comes together and road furniture and signage creates exciting new opportunities to distract drivers and injure cyclists.

    The other point is what are you going to bash your head on in the woods Vs out on the “open” road? are lampposts, kerbs and corner railings somehow more forgiving than trees and rocks?

    There is of course the “popular perception” aspect to consider:
    Should your head get mashed in by a car in an RTA, and you chose not to wear a helmet, various groups, journalists, police, insurers, judges even, now seem prone to equating helmetlessness with an increased weighting of proportionate blame on the cyclist.

    If we follow this popular mob logic, lacking a helmet is apparently indicative of a cyclists lack of personal safety awareness or generally unsafe behavior (regardless of the detail of their actions), and means that half pissed tweenager in his Mums Saxo is by default 30% less to blame for you becoming a quadraplegic somehow.

    As has already been said it’s personal choice, but it’s worth thinking beyond the simple considerations like ventilation before you make the choice.

    I speak as someone who survived a moderately serious off without a helmet in an urban environment, a foot this way or that as I went OTB and a very bad concussion / memory loss would have been caved in skull style, brain death. Having had my karmic get out of jail free card already, I now err on the side of caution and wear a helmet whenever I ride a bike of any sort in any environment…

    But if you went for a ride with me, and didn’t wear a helmet I’d not pass any sort of comment, it’s individual choice and not really any of my business…

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    the damage risk from that fall much higher..
    .. larger force impact if I fall..
    cycling is more dangerous [ as it is faster] than walking

    Okay Junkyard, so following that logic why don’t you wear a helmet in the car?

    The speed is magnitudes faster than walking or cycling, the impacts are far greater still, and many times more car occupants die from head injuries than cyclists.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I’ve read of a couple of famous elite climbers who died soloing ridiculously simple routes.

    Yes, sadly it happens. Whilst you can compensate for risk, you can’t eliminate it. Climbers understand this, which is why you don’t see climbers criticising other climbers for soloing or climbing dangerous routes, in the same way you see cyclists slagging other cyclists for not wearing helmets.

    sbob
    Member

    ransos – Member

    Helmets are designed to offer limited protection in low speed accidents

    I’ll pick on you as you keep repeating the same line which is completely false.

    Helmets are designed to protect your head at the likely speed your bonce will hit the floor if you take a tumble.
    It doesn’t matter if you are doing 4mph or 40mph, your head will fall from the same height and hit the floor at the same vertical speed, which helmets are designed to protect against.
    Trotting out the same old BS that helmets are only designed to help in 10/12mph accidents and that if you ride faster than that they are totally ineffectual is either proof that the anti-helmet lot (who love to mention this) are deliberately lying or proof that they haven’t really thought it through.
    I hope it is the latter.

    To clarify my position, I rarely wear a helmet and am against compulsory helmet use, but would rather people were able to make an informed choice without all this BS.

    Junkyard
    Member

    why don’t you wear a helmet in the car?

    Because i pay road tax obviously

    And so begins stage two ๐Ÿ˜‰

    For the same reasons I always give though it is not an argument without merits

    As its deja vu all over again I bow out

    my logic for wearing one is….

    if i hit my head forcefully with a hammer without a helmet, i would get a lump come up on my head, lose a few thousand cells and probably get a cut… and would have a headache…

    if i did the same with a helmet on, i’m sure non of the above would happen, maybe a headache at a push.

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    Okay Junkyard, so following that logic why don’t you wear a helmet in the car?

    Modern car headrests and airbags are not designed to be used with a helmet. ๐Ÿ˜€

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    As its deja vu all over again I bow out

    Fair enough – it’s an important point though.

    As usual there are plenty of patronising people on this thread slagging off the non-helmet wearers saying it is a “no brainer”, “lunacy” or “darwinism” not to wear a helmet on a road bike.

    But those same people don’t wear a neck brace on a bike, or a helmet in a car.

    And they’d think anyone who did was a bit odd, despite the fact that these measures could save their life.

    Good to have a free choice eh? ๐Ÿ˜€

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Trotting out the same old BS that helmets are only designed to help in 10/12mph accidents and that if you ride faster than that they are totally ineffectual is either proof that the anti-helmet lot (who love to mention this) are deliberately lying or proof that they haven’t really thought it through.
    I hope it is the latter.

    You appear to be having some trouble with basic comprehension, so let me set you straight. Helmets are designed to be effective up to around 12mph. They are progressively less effective in impacts rising above this speed, so in the 40mph example you quote, the notion that they’re going to save your life is pretty laughable. It’s polystyrene, not an anti-gravity forcefield.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    my logic for wearing one is….

    if i hit my head forcefully with a hammer without a helmet…

    But have you taken into account the fact that wearing a helmet makes that hammer collision more likely?

    Modern car headrests and airbags are not designed to be used with a helmet.

    They seem to manage okay in car rallies. Perhaps remove the headrest altogether and use a proper helmet and neck brace?

    But have you taken into account the fact that wearing a helmet makes that hammer collision more likely?

    I’m the one with the hammer,..I’m not all that keen on hitting my head with a hammer, helmet or no helmet, so the collision is never going to happen. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    sbob
    Member

    ransos – Member

    You appear to be having some trouble with basic comprehension, so let me set you straight. Helmets are designed to be effective up to around 12mph. They are progressively less effective in impacts rising above this speed, so in the 40mph example you quote, the notion that they’re going to save your life is pretty laughable. It’s polystyrene, not an anti-gravity forcefield.

    I thought I made it simple enough… ๐Ÿ™„

    Let me try again.

    You fall off your bike at 40mph.
    Do you:

    a) hit your head on an immovable object instantaneously decelerating it to 0mph?

    or

    b) some other scenario?

    I’ll give you a clue; it’s unlikely to be “a”.

    Take your time.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I’ll give you a clue; it’s unlikely to be “a”.

    Depends on the crash surely? I take your point about horizontal and vertical vectors, but a typical road crash such as driving into the side of a van that pulled out on you from a side road could well result in “a”

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    They seem to manage okay in car rallies. Perhaps remove the headrest altogether and use a proper helmet and neck brace?

    Quick poll: who here uses a rally car for day to day driving?

    Sorry Graham, I don’t see many hands. ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    Of course, cars could be made much safer in the event of a crash, but the vast majority of customers don’t want this.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I knew someone who soloed with a helmet …never saw the point of that

    Probably to mitigate the risk of rockfall. A stone hitting you on the head without a helmet would probably cause you to fall off. A stone hitting you on the head with a helmet would probably cause nothing more than a brown-trouser moment. Just another factor in the risk-compensation calculation.

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    Depends on the crash surely? I take your point about horizontal and vertical vectors, but a typical road crash such as driving into the side of a van that pulled out on you from a side road could well result in “a”

    In a typical road crash the vehicle would be a car, which would probably not result in “a”.

    I’m not saying “a” doesn’t happen, just that it is unlikely.
    Like serious accidents.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Quick poll: who here uses a rally car for day to day driving?

    Or a rally suit in a reasonably priced car?

    Of course, cars could be made much safer in the event of a crash, but the vast majority of customers don’t want this.

    Yup. And everyone accepts that. So why can’t people accept that some cyclists just don’t want to wear a helmet?

    Really?

    I enjoy the debate. It is always worth having.
    But condescending insults do get in the way. They hugely oversimplify what is actually a pretty complex issue.

    http://road.cc/content/news/85306-top-scientists-cycle-helmets-debate-will-go-and-and

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    In a typical road crash the vehicle would be a car, which would probably not result in “a”.

    Aren’t 50% of fatalities in London caused by incidents with HGVs?

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    Or a rally suit in an reasonably priced car?

    That car won’t be that reasonably priced once you’ve fitted the roll cage, racing seats and harnesses. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    sbob
    Member

    So why can’t people accept that some cyclists just don’t want to wear a helmet?

    I’m happy for anyone to cycle without a helmet, I just get a little tired of people using BS to justify their position.

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    Aren’t 50% of fatalities in London caused by incidents with HGVs?

    You’ve moved the goalposts now, naughty!
    What % of accidents are fatal?

    Premier Icon mattjg
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    Yes, and since I saw

    [video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu4QzAIayTU[/video]

    very yes.

    ormondroyd
    Member

    I wear one but I’m very dubious as to how much protection it really gives. All the “my helmet was in pieces” stories do forget a bit that helmets DO break into pieces very easily. I’ve done it with a light impact that I’m sure wouldn’t have done much damage to my unhelmeted head.

    ANYWAY, what I don’t agree with is the “it’s stupid not to wear one” line. In the Netherlands and Denmark, injury rates are a fraction of UK injury rates, yet helmet use is near enough zero.

    Basic health and safety theory – the top of the triangle is the most effective measure:

    Focusing on helmets gives the motor vehicle lobby a big straw man. It results in articles about cyclists hit by cars that focus on the fact that “the cyclist was not wearing a helmet” even if they died of chest injuries. It misses the point hugely and therefore it’s dumb.

    teasel
    Member

    been whacked loads of times by branches

    Likewise. Unfortunately the bloody big holes designed to allow air to flow effortlessly over my sweaty bonce were also large enough to allow a branch to thwack me on the forehead. On numerous occasions.

    I’m starting to think a pisspot is the way forward…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    All the “my helmet was in pieces” stories do forget a bit that helmets DO break into pieces very easily

    And absorb energy in the process. You might as well say ‘airbags are rubbish, look at them all hanging out of the dash like johnnies, how can they give you any protection?’

    teasel
    Member

    hanging out of the dash like johnnies

    ๐Ÿ™‚

    A very juvenille turn of phrase but funny nonetheless.

    ormondroyd
    Member

    I thoroughly recommend this brilliant talk.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY[/video]

    “Copenhagen’s bicycle ambassador talks about how important the bicycle is for liveable cities and how bicycle helmets are threatening bicycle culture.”

    nicko74
    Member

    It’s no worse than those who use an anecdote of “a helmet saved my life one time” as a reason for wearing one

    Basically, the issue is that we’re talking to a self-selecting sample, when the *proof* actually depends on talking to people who had bike accidents and didn’t make it. Ouija board, anyone?

    And for cool videos, how about this one? [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiONWsjQuwM&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s[/video]

    ormondroyd
    Member

    Look at all these people who WILL SURELY DIE

    Oh, hang on, they’re riding in the safest place for cyclists on Earth.

    Like I say, I wear one, but the way many people harp on about them being completely essential and it being stupid not to wear one… it boils my piss a bit because it’s just playing into the hands of people with vested interests against cycling.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    ormondroyd: You get it.

    FunkyDunc
    Member

    Ive never landed on my head whilst riding an mtb so perhaps no need to wear one according to the OP?

    Premier Icon coolhandluke
    Subscriber

    I always wear a lid for off road.

    I always wear a lid for road rides, unless I’m just popping to the shop which is along a quiet road, through an alley.

    I wear a lid off road in case I make a mistake and fall off. I wear a lid on road rides in case some external force makes a mistake be it a car, a dog, a lorry, a pedestrian etc. eg things I can’t predict.

    It’s about risk and hazard, there are too many muppets about that I have no control over, one of them is me.

    fr0sty
    Member

    A cat (ironically) dived into my front wheel in a side road a few years ago. I was doing about 25mph. I landed on my shoulder then head, the helmet hitting the road. It was a big crash and the helmet did its job. Had I not been wearing it, well, look at the damage.

    Catlike Whisper remains:

    ormondroyd
    Member

    So who here thinks people are stupid if they don’t wear a helmet when they walk to the shops?

    Premier Icon DezB
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    Don’t give the slightest toss what anyone else does, but always wear mine on the commute. Saved me bonce a couple of times too.
    Your ‘ead, your choice.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    Look at all these people who WILL SURELY DIE

    I’ve no axe to grind, do what you want, but where I ride is more like:

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