[Closed] The great helmet debate

Tea?

Sorry about the injuries, hope you heal.

I shall be purchasing another and am of the opinion that anyone who goes without (esp. on road) could do well to review their contingency planning.

good for you /thread

I have just bought a Casco E.Motion helmet for my ride to work now (previously unhelmeted) after breaking my clavicle and hitting my head 🙂

5 months with no riding, just to cheer you up 🙂

Tea?

Met Parachute FTW.

Tea?

Chocolate hob-nobs for me, but I guess I'll have to watch what I cram down my throoat now I'm a couch potato.

You can never be too safe.

[IMG] [/IMG]

I had a big off without a lid on about 15 years ago and ended up in a bit of a mess. I always wear one now.

you really need the straps fastened will noone think about the children 😆

I agree re use and the reason

Will no one think about the bunny?!

[img] [/img]
Help yourself.

You wait until the rotational forces kick in - It may well spin your head right off

anyone who goes without (esp. on road) could do well to review their contingency planning.

Reviewed contigency planning still not bothering with one for the road, no biscuits in the house so going for a curry and cobra (or three), carry on.

Just over half an hour in and the usual suspects are yet to declare war? Maybe spring has tempered there angst and sanctimony 😉

I always wear one now.

Even in the bath?

I stumped my toe while wearing a helmet...it didn't protect me one bit.

GrahamS - Member

I always wear one now.

Even in the bath?

That is some serious contingency planning.
Altough you could easily slip.

McHamish - Member
I stumped my toe while wearing a helmet...it didn't protect me one bit.

Imagine what could have happened if you weren't wearing it!

*Sighs*

*refers OP to previous threads on this ad nauseaum"

I always wear one now!

[IMG] [/IMG]

Most people die in bed.

I wear my helmet to bed.

I am immortal

That's my reasoning and I'm not dead yet

We're not all blessed with fabulous thick and protective hair 😉

to the OP go out do the same again without a helmet and come back with some photos, then we might be able to have a reasonable discussion.

Sorry but i fell off my bike and the helmet helped is crap unless you can actually show evidence that the helmet helped.

I came off my road bike on monday. I ended up in taking an ambulance to hospital strapped to a back board. I scuffed my helmet as i tumbled along the road after i went over the bars (chain slipped). It saved my skull some damage, but it also provided a rather comfy support for my head as i lay on the road not moving for fear of damaging my spine. I imagine i'd have been really uncomfortable without it on.

Sorry but i fell off my bike and the helmet helped is crap unless you can actually show evidence that the helmet helped.

If I don't provide photos it probly didn't even happen - much like the holocaust?

Wish I was capable of drawing a conclusion from my experience 🙁

You can draw a conclusion from your experience, but without evidence of the result without wearing a helmet you have no way of KNOWING!!!!! what good the helmet did. It may of helped but then again it may not really have made any difference, you can't know for certain.

The standards to which cycle helmets are made aren't really very high and i think alot of people give them more credit than they deserve.

Counter argument, would you have been in the position you placed yourself in if you had not been wearing a helmet? I wouldn't ride off-road without a helmet, so wearing a helmet makes a crash more likely.

They are excellent for keeping unruly hair in place.

I never ride offroad without a helmet. All the worst injuries/crashes I've had have been on the road though, including being hit by cars 3 or 4 times. But I often ride on the road without a helmet. Am I due a Darwin Award soon then?

Ok , So hypothetical arguement .

I am going to drop a paving slab onto your head from 1 meter away .

The paving slab will hit your head at 15mph .

Would you like a helmet to wear ?

singletrackmind - i'd rather be someplace else ie active safety - avoid the accident

given the fact I have this knowledge, I will pre-emptive strike you with a judo-kick to the stomach, the paving slab will fall onto your foot sir! rendering you incapable of throwing more paving slabs at 15mph from 1 meter distance.

Biscuits? Next time it could be a child's face!!

[img] [/img]

Does anyone really give a toss if other bikers wear them?

I choose to wear one if I'm on a proper ride, but don't bother if I'm going to the shops, or park with dog/daughter.

If I came across someone who I had to help with a head injury, who hadn't been wearing one, I wouldn't inflict any judgemental malice towards him/her.

Personal choice, innit?

Teej - wearing one in bed must play havoc with your neck muscles.

Ah I'll always wear a lid, I'll take my chance it will do me good it more circumstances than it will hurt me. Mate stacked it Sunday cracked lid just a bump to show for it so I'll gamble it's a good thing.

I know a chap who won't wear a seat belt, as a teenager he rolled a car and was thrown out the open window the car ended up on fire, he was knocked out. By his reasoning if he'd have been belted into the car he'd have burned alive and died so won't wear one. Even though this was a freak accident he still won't wear one..... If you look into something enough you can show it's right or wrong much like the whole lid thing.

Jaffa cake please!

Incase anyone still is unaware of the various issues this is a reasonable and moderate position - the CTC position on helmets and comulsion.
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4688

Note:-

Several recent reports (including four papers in peer-reviewed medical journals) have found no link between changes in helmet wearing rates and cyclists' safety - and there are even cases where safety seems to have worsened as helmet-wearing increased.

Follow the links for the various sources of data

Safer to ride carefully without a helmet than recklessly with a helmet 😉

So apart from TeeJ's freakonomics stance, are there any papers that do a study of the severity of head injuries when the victims are/aren't wearing helmets?

EDIT: This is an innocent question; I haven't assumed any results.

Did you know that if you leave a pub drunk, you're more likely to be killed if you walk home than if you drive home? That's TeeJonomics for you.

DD follow the links on the CTC page and you will find some

- there are two main sources of data on frequency of head injuries. Studies of admissions to hospital looking at cyclists with head injuries and helmet wearing - these tend to show a reduction in head injuries with helmet wearing in the order of 50 %. Badly flawed in that there is no allowance made for the missing people - Ie those who don't get head injuries. Therefore you don't know if helmet wearers are more likely to have accidents. Also no allowance for helmets making injuries worse which can happen ( one study shows 30% of all head injuries are caused by helmets!!)

The other type of study is whole population studies looking at head injury rates as helmet wearing rates alters. These show no reduction in head injuries as helmet wearing rates increase.

Again flawed as there is no great agreement on what constitutes a head injury and it could be the same amount of injuries but the severity is lower. However fatalities do not decrease either.

Teh main thing I have learnt from looking at a lot of studies on this and reading the original papers as well as the various commentaries is that he quality of the research is rubbish, many researchers seem to have the conclusion in mind before the study and find the data to fit, huge assumptions are made.

We need better quality research and more of it.

what worries me is people NOT taking their helmets off when the ride has ended, and you're chatting in the pub. Bloke did this this weekend. What's he expecting, some mad bar brawl with chairs over the head or sommat? Next time I'm seriously taking the piss 😀

DD - a study that shows no preventative effect
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/15389580590931590

Conclusions:There is no evidence that cycle helmets reduce the overall cyclist injury burden at the population level in the UK when data on road casualties is examined.

Wearing a helmet dramatically reduces the risk of head and facial injuries for bicyclists involved in a crash, even if it involves a motor vehicle

Cycling is a healthy and popular activity for people of all ages. Crashes involving bicyclists are, however, common and often involve motor vehicles. Head injuries are responsible for around three-quarters of deaths among bicyclists involved in crashes. Facial injuries are also common. The review found that wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head or brain injury by approximately two-thirds or more, regardless of whether the crash involved a motor vehicle. Injuries to the mid and upper face were also markedly reduced, although helmets did not prevent lower facial injuries.

http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001855.html

A critique of the cochrane review
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1069.html

bump for the 40 post glitch

Tis at the moment a free ish country wear a lid if you want to or dont if you feel like it . I do sometimes and dont when I want to

should all dangerous sports be banned then

do free climbers always wear a helmet not going to do them much good if they miss a hand hold but will stop a small stone from smashing their skull in

same thing here a helmet may stop the hurt from a small stack or lessen the hurt in a big one but just cos you have one on doesnt make you invincible
all boils down to lady luck at the end of the day

my 2pth worth...
- i think they have an effect on preventing head injuries
- the effect is minor however
- i mostly wear mine but would happily ride without it.
- health benefits of cycling far outweigh the risks even without a helmet

I wince when I see people without helmets in the local woods where the biggest risk is from a low branch strike. Saw Terrahawk of this parish hit one with such force that his lid split like a melon.

[i]I'd rather be someplace else ie active safety - avoid the accident[/i]

See, you can't fight the logic. You just have to avoid any unsafe conditions on a bike 😕

I went over the bars at speed last year. Faceplanted with some serious force. As the surgeon stitched my face back up, desperately trying to save my lucrative modeling career, he said "I'll tell you this much, from the looks of you, if you hadn't have had the helmet on we'd have been treating some pretty serious head injuries"

That's all i need to know.

mrmo - Member
You can draw a conclusion from your experience, but without evidence of the result without wearing a helmet you have no way of KNOWING!!!!! what good the helmet did. It may of helped but then again it may not really have made any difference, you can't know for certain.

You mean I don't know what would have happened when I smacked my head on the HARD tarmac had I not been wearing a helmet? Seriously? From prior experience I know it would have at least hurt, it did not hurt - there is no head type brusing; QED helmet wearing (in this case) prevented CERTAIN injury.

Counter argument, would you have been in the position you placed yourself in if you had not been wearing a helmet? I wouldn't ride off-road without a helmet, so wearing a helmet makes a crash more likely.

No, no I wouldn't. Why not? Just in case I get hit by a car. What you're doing there is attempting to apply causation from correlation - this is generally not accepted as good logic.

TandemJeremy says:

I wear my helmet to bed.

from wikipedias page on the soul singer Tenna Marie:

Around 2004, Teena Marie lay sleeping in a hotel room when a large picture frame fell and struck her in the head. The blow caused a serious concussion that would result in momentary seizures for the rest of her life. She had suffered a Tonic-Clonic epileptic-seizure (once known as Grand Mal epileptic seizure) just one month before her death.

Genuinely didn't mean to troll when starting this, but appreciate some of what I've written since has been a bit provoking. Am surprised TJ has contributed as much as he has due to obviously being a bit sick of this subject but think he's been nicely behaved and don't see any point going on about this anymore so I'm gonna see if I can get any more response on the http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/getting-a-bike-checked-out-following-rta thread I started earlier 🙂

Conclusions:There is no evidence that cycle helmets reduce the overall cyclist injury burden at the population level in the UK when data on road casualties is examined. This finding, supported by research elsewhere could simply be due to cycle helmets having little potential to reduce the overall transport-related cycle injury burden. Equally, it could be a manifestation of the “ecological fallacy” where it could be conceived that the existence of various sub-groups of cyclists, with different risk profiles, may need to be accounted for in understanding the difference between predicted and realised casualty patterns.

That's the complete quote that TJ quoted. Obviously the final sentence needs to be considered also.

What's evident here is that there is lots of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, for and against helmet wearing. What's even more evident is that people basically have a view and then display quite significant heuristic biases to support it, e.g. TJ quoting just that first sentence above.

the biggest risk is from a low branch strike.

my thoughts exactly ! A big off is liable to cause any number of potentially horrible injuries to any body part, however most riders are fortunate enough to never be in that situation (turns round desperately looking for wood to touch (ooh-err) or salt to throw over shoulder).

It's preventing the higher frequency nuisance injuries becoming ride-stoppers (or worse) that makes my mind up.

I'm more than happy to wear a helmet to prevent a branch strike causing aforementioned melon splitting, loss of control resulting in a fall or even expensive glasses being swiped from face and broken.

I feel no inconvenience at all from wearing a modern lightweight helmet under any UK riding conditions, the peak keeps sun/rain from eyes, the helmet provides a handy lamp mount, and comedy helmet hair can be compared post ride to great amusement.

It's free will though, and those who choose to go helmless are more than welcome to, long may it be so.........

EDIT as for 'risk compensation' there's the counter argument that putting on the helmet may remind you (if that's needed) that you're about to indulge in a potentially dangerous activity that needs a degree of care, whereas the free flowing locks in the breeze riders may be so entranced with their sense of 'freedom' they fail to see that low hanging branch 🙁

rob, thing is you don't know, you can make an educated guess.

as for the second part what i am saying is risk compensation, which is a fairly well accepted fact of human nature.

Think of a weekend warrior all padded up, would they do what they do without the pads? same applies to all safety measures.

See - evidence that I am right to take sensible precautions! (turner guys post)

i often wear pads and although it does make you feel a little invincible i wouldn't say i ride any differently.

Damo - that was merely used as indicative of the two differing results from two differnt ways of collecting data

Lots of examples of each

All I know is that I'm glad I wear my helmet as every time I ride I hit it on a tree!

They just cant help themselves 🙂

Don't wake me cos I'm dreaming of my Hawaiian Island world.

binners - Member
I went over the bars at speed last year. Faceplanted with some serious force. As the surgeon stitched my face back up, desperately trying to save my lucrative modeling career, he said "I'll tell you this much, from the looks of you, if you hadn't have had the helmet on we'd have been treating some pretty serious head injuries"

That's all i need to know.

Binners - I had exactly the same, even down to the modelling career.
I had the same comments as they CT scanned me, from the anaesthetist and the Glaswegian plastic surgeon.

So I had the curry mentioned on paege 1, chicken tava, two cobra's and a pint of Abott, return home and still this rumbles on. Why can't Hilldodgers quote; "It's free will though, and those who choose to go helmless are more than welcome to, long may it be so......." be at the start of every cobbblers thread like this to save time?

"I'll tell you this much, from the looks of you, if you hadn't have had the helmet on we'd have been treating some pretty serious head injuries"

The problem with the "doctor said xxx" when it comes to helmets is there is frequently such a strong bias about the level of protection offer by a cycle helmet that it highly clouds their judgement on the subject. It's more of an engineering problem to ascertain given the impact the level of protection offered by the helmet than a medical one.

A medical Doctor can possibly make the judgement that given head injury has occurred that only a small increase in force a head injury with damage xyz was close to occurring. They can not however say what protection was offered by the helmet. They also can not say given you have no head injuries you would have had serious head injuries were it not for the helmet as they are not in a position to make judgement on the level of protection offered by the helmet. In fact in the case where there is no head injury given the level of protection typically offered by a normal cycle helmet head injuries would more than likely be relativity minor beyond laceration.

I do enjoy these posts but I shouldn't.

So I'll take a non judgemental approach. Its up to everyone to choose after all. I'll not drag out any studies or stats but all I'll try to do is to explain why I wear a helmet.

1. Many years ago a friend of mine witnessed a cyclist die in an rta. He wasn't wearing helmet. The accident wasn't high speed just enough to make him lose his balance, fall over and strike his head on the ground.
2. I have written off a helmet on a slow speed technical section. I lost my balance. I slid down a slope and smacked my head off a fence post. Big crack across the helmet. I was seeing stars.
3. My mate is a neuro pychologist. She assesses patients after head injury. She decides if you are 'tatties' or not. Cognitively speaking. Some of her patients [s]are[/s] were cyclists. She's technically a very good biker. Very brave. She always wears a helmet because it will increase her chances of coming out the other side of a bad accident with her senses intact.
4. My wife's a neuro physio. She fixes up the folks assessed by my mate the best she can. Teaching them to walk or use any of their limbs again. She copes with the lack inhibition and the aggression brought on by the injuries. Her work is both heart breaking and inspiring but she would rather she did not have to do the job. She would rather I wore a helmet so I will
5. My kids. I have a duty to set an example that wearing a helmet in most 'adventure' type sports is normal and the done thing. My boy has already had a couple of face plants coming off his bike. He's only 3. I want him to be courageous but also as protected as he can be.

Thanks for reading.

Rob....
Maybe something like this could be better than a regular helmet... http://www.coolthings.com.au/massive-head-rasta-hat-dreadlocks-giant-inflatable-wig.html
Safety and style in one.

http://www.good.is/post/watch-this-invisible-airbag-helmet-for-cyclists-inflate/

wearing one in bed must play havoc with your neck muscles

I definitely think that it should be the rider who decides. I've not much time for people who demand legislation on this type of thing. At the end of the day, it's your head. Do with it what you want.

All I know is that I can't conceive the outcome of my accident being improved by me NOT wearing a helmet. How much worse could it have been? Who knows. Severe concussion? A fractured skull?

As it stands I've got some interesting, but not-too-serious facial scars (multi-directional lacarations tend to do that), but that's all. And chicks dig scars, right? 😀

Having worked in helmet design and testing for quite a long time now I conclude three things:

1. Helmet wearing should be by choice not by law, apart from for kids
2. Helmets definitely save lives
3. I will always wear a helmet, a lot of serious trauma happens when you least expect it.

Did you know that if you leave a pub drunk, you're more likely to be killed if you walk home than if you drive home?

But I'm more likely to be killed if you drive home than if you walk home. 😉

TJ - your views are well-known, and as the last of the libertarian nutters on this issue you come in a long line of great British eccentrics - literally cutting head off to spite face.

Helmets provide partial protection. Any accident involving combined force of over about 35mph renders helmets pretty useless. This is true also for motorbike helmets, and for cyclists is probably more relevent for roadies who are often hit by a speeding vehicle. With MTBs it's more likely to be a messy off or being hit by a low hanging branch..........and as such, while it provides no 100% magic shield, wearing a helmet just seems like obvious sense. We all have anecdotal stories of the 'without this, you would have been a gonner' type.

My helmet is great, nothing to debate ....

dekadanese - have you actually bothered to read the research or links? Perhaps you should and perhaps you don't understand my position which is

Cycling is safe, serious accidents involving head injury are very rare

Helmets provide little protection

In some circumstances they can make injury worse - shown repeatedly in experimentation and analysis although at what relative level is unknown ie is it 0.01 % or 30%

The research is often poor quality, contradictory and counterintuative

Across whole populations no benefit is seen as helmet wearing rates rise - why is unknown.

I wear a helmet when the risks are large to protect from minor injuries. I am prepared to accept the very rare chance of injury in some circumstnces

i don't believe they are very effective against major injuries

All of this is backed by good quality research over decades.

do you wear a helmet when walking? Drinking or driving? All place when head injury is more likely that cycling

+1 for helmets during rush hour!

was commuting through the meadows in edinburgh yester morn when i saw a cyclist get a door prize from the rear passenger in a car in a queue of traffic.
he hit the ground hard.
went over to check out how he was, and though shaken, he was well enough to walk around and pick up the various bits of his helmet that seemingly took one helluva blow.

how hard did he hit the car door?

as the car pulled away, we both noticed the 6-8" gap between the edge of the door and the body of the car. he'd creased the whole door outwards, and they were [i]not even close[/i] to being able to close it.

TJ, if the research is as flawed as you keep telling us, why do you insist upon referring to it to support your stance.

I think we all agree that wearing a helmet is a personal decision, but you seem to be the only poster who insists upon haranguing people with a different opinion to yourself, why not just live and let live eh, there's no 'rights' or 'wrongs' on this, just opinions and viewpoints........

.......it's friday, try being nice to people for just one day a week 😀

I heard an interesting thing today about how if you wear a helmet on your arse, it prevents saddle sores.

[i] i saw a cyclist get a door prize [/i]

When I was picked up after being hit by a car (my head bounced off the windscreen), the medical professional in the ambulance, told me he was glad I'd been wearing a helmet as a woman he'd picked up the other day had been car doored while tootling along. She wasn't wearing a helmet and had suffered "cerebral irritation". But, hey! What do medical professionals know?! I'm sure she would have been no better off if her head had been covered by a hard plastic shell with padding inside.

TJ with quite a statement there. Cycling has a lower head injury rate than walking? In some rare circumstances perhaps, but that's quite an opinion there, and in the majority of circumstances I would suggest not true. As you regularly say, where is your evidence research and or statistics based upon this?

My opinion is pro choice, but kids (say under 15) must be made to, as they are not old enough to fully comprehend the risk and so make a proper judgement, as factors such as looking cool etc are more important than safety, which is a skewed decision method.

i'd rather be someplace else ie active safety - avoid the accident

Lolz - logical thinking FAIL!

kids (say under 15) must be made to, as they are not old enough to fully comprehend the risk

And adults are? Some, maybe, but clearly not all.

Got bored but a bit I read was "a mate refused to wear a seatbelt" now there is massive evidence seat belts save lives and you're a tool if you don't! First hand experience, a really good mate of mine died at 19, same scenario, no seatbelt, car rolled, threw him out then rolled over him. Coroners report said died instantly, i and very few others know that wasn't the case!! A greatly missed mate 15 years on!!

Cycling is safe, serious accidents involving head injury are very rare

What a rather odd statement, in the US 50,000 cyclists are injured each year, with around 700 fatalities, of which 60% are accounted to head injuries. 25 years ago the number of fatalities was double that. Those figures are just for incidents involving motor vehicles.

The total estimated number of head injuries from cycling each year in the US is 150,000

Helmets provide little protection

That's like saying nurses contribute very little to the saving of peoples lives. You aren't involved in the industry and have NO data to back that up.

In some circumstances they can make injury worse - shown repeatedly in experimentation and analysis although at what relative level is unknown ie is it 0.01 % or 30%

Again not true, there is a lot of work in the motorcycle industry to look at the oblique impacts at speed and the rotational injuries associated with them. This assumes that the persons neck hasn't snapped at the same time. Cycling injuries are very different.

The research is often poor quality, contradictory and counterintuative

If you are referring to the research detailing that helmets don't stop injuries and fatalities then I would agree, the research you quote s seriously flawed.

Across whole populations no benefit is seen as helmet wearing rates rise - why is unknown.

Again, untrue, but I don't have the energy to go into details, refer to other thread.

I wear a helmet when the risks are large to protect from minor injuries. I am prepared to accept the very rare chance of injury in some circumstnces

Each to their own, most injuries occur when people perceive the risk is low

i don't believe they are very effective against major injuries

All products have their limitations.

You aren't involved in the industry and have NO data to back that up

That doesn't stop TJ being right (in his mind) about lots of things.

I'm still amazed he has the conceit to come on and argue counter to someone about their own job when he has nothing but some googling, some basic physics and poor logic.