Why do the pro helmet people care if I wear one or not, I don’t understand why it would matter to anyone other than me?

The difference between cycling and being a pedestrian is that you usually are’t mixing with the cars when you are walking.

I thought we’d agreed that helmets don’t generally help when you’re hit by a car?

It’s not possible to eliminate risk when cycling on the road.

It’s not possible to eliminate risk when doing any activity – only a fool would think otherwise.

Why do the pro helmet people care if I wear one or not, I don’t understand why it would matter to anyone other than me?

If it were the case that helmets really did make us much safer, then there’s an argument that it matters to society – given we all pay for the NHS etc.

I’m guessing we can conclude lion taming is safer than driving a car, or walking down the road.

Follows advice, gives up cycling, starts to tame lions

I see, that’s pretty thin really.

I mean, c’mon – are those of you taking a side on this ever going to convince each other? Are you going to stop people in the street and try and change their mind as to whether wearing one or not is a good idea?

This is the problem though. I haven’t seen anyone on the non-hats side trying to persuade anyone to not wear a helmet, but plenty of the opposite. IMO this debate isn’t really about the efficacy of helmets or other related issues like risk-compensation etc, but about the fact that a significant number of cyclists feel the need to preach, patronise and sometimes abuse other cyclists over a relatively trivial choice of what they wear when riding a bike. I’m not on the non-helmets ‘side’, but the ‘treat everyone with respect, and support other cyclists’ side.

I see, that’s pretty thin really.

I agree, but only because the benefits of helmets are very debatable. You could make the same argument about car seatbelts…

dazh – Member
I haven’t seen anyone on the non-hats side trying to persuade anyone to not wear a helmet, but plenty of the opposite. IMO this debate isn’t really about the efficacy of helmets or other related issues like risk-compensation etc, but about the fact that a significant number of cyclists feel the need to preach, patronise and sometimes abuse other cyclists over a relatively trivial choice of what they wear when riding a bike.

Well said…so I am a nutter, stupid and an idiot according to this thread!! But a classic STW thread nonetheless.

‘treat everyone with respect

If only….!!

It really is no one else’s business.

fact that a significant number of cyclists feel the need to preach, patronise and sometimes abuse other cyclists

Its a minority and while the hats outweigh the non hats in doing this they have not been alone.
Indeed the problem may be lack of mutual respect – same as on the roads

teamhurtmore – Member
It really is no one else’s business.

Unless you fall off and receive some form of head trauma, at which point it becomes a whole lot of other people’s business.

I’ve not had any other cyclist comment about my lack of a helmet on road however my wife, friends and family all seem to believe that by not wearing one I am trying to commit suicide. Seems odd that those least qualified to comment (very occasional riders) seem to be the most vociferous. This debate reminds me of the religious threads but I’m expected to wear a helmet on faith!

I mean, c’mon – are those of you taking a side on this ever going to convince each other?

Well one person on this thread has mailed me to say they’ve changed their opinion.

But mainly +1 Wot dazh said. I do mostly wear a helmet these days, I’m not interested in persuading people that helmets are a bad idea because I don’t think they are, I just want people to think about it properly and be aware of the downsides and counter-arguments.

Because I don’t really enjoy the tutting, head-shaking and patronising comments from folk (including non-cyclists!) on the days that I don’t bother with a lid.

I’m saying, perhaps one of the reasons why in the stats, cycling is as safe as walking is because a lot of people already wear helmets.

It’s a possibility – but if that was the case wouldn’t you see a significant decrease in accidents in places where helmets were made compulsory?

Good point.

Hands up who wears a drinking helmet?
Well, I always seem to end up wearing beer goggles.

Well one person on this thread has mailed me to say they’ve changed their opinion.

Bet they wont say who it is openly 😉

I do mostly wear a helmet these days, I’m not interested in persuading people that helmets are a bad idea because I don’t think they are, I just want people to think about it properly and be aware of the downsides and counter-arguments

I think I realised that for the serious stuff i do be it fast road or proper MTB a lid make sense

To just pootle along the canal at an average of 6 mph with my kids it is not really going to make much difference for me or them*

* i am less sue i will ride sans lid with my kids but you get the point

I think there’s real merit in considering the relative benefits / drawbacks of helmet wearing as objectively as you can, even if it doesn’t actually change your mind you are at least better equipped with some information and points to mull over rather than accepting the prevailing group opinion without question…

I dislike the insults, name calling or resorting to hyperbolic point scoring and comparisons that threads like this often seem to descend into, it is possible to state you opinion without calling others “Idiots” it is possible to disagree with someone by simply writing “I disagree” and giving your reasons…

Clearly it’s a topic that animates people, that’s a good thing IMO.
Earlier in this thread there was discussion on the risk compensation and driver perception issues.
Helmet wearing is obviously a part of the wider road safety issue, quite apart from the injury protection they offer, what are the other implications of wearing a helmet? how is the perception of “Risk” that cycling presents altered as Helmets are now considered almost mandatory, and how drivers attitudes and behaviour towards a cyclist change if they do/don’t wear a helmet… as counter-intuitive as the arguments that helmets possibly make cycling “more risky” might appear, they do have some merit.

People also seem to have, by default, focused on the idea of accidents directly involving motor vehicles, MTBing accidents tend to occur through rider misjudgement(s) of speed, terrain or personal ability, are we saying that this is never the case for road cycling?

“Risk” if you want to assess it properly considers both likelihood AND severity of a given incident occurring, while I might agree that the likelihood of an accident occurring on a road Vs MTB ride is possibly less, I believe the potential severity is probably on average a bit higher, thus I would say Risk possibly scores similarly for the two activities…

I would actually love to see a proper risk assessment carried out for both MTBing and Road cycling, I may even try to find an appropriate format and fill one out at some point along with consideration of Hazard Control Measures (ERICPD anyone?)… What most people refer to as doing “my own risk assessments” are generally a few seconds of weighing up pros/cons and then cracking on.
A proper risk assessment is a pretty useful tool as it scores risk and makes the assessor(s) consider practicable ways to reduce it…

This is the problem though. I haven’t seen anyone on the non-hats side trying to persuade anyone to not wear a helmet, but plenty of the opposite. IMO this debate isn’t really about the efficacy of helmets or other related issues like risk-compensation etc, but about the fact that a significant number of cyclists feel the need to preach, patronise and sometimes abuse other cyclists over a relatively trivial choice of what they wear when riding a bike. I’m not on the non-helmets ‘side’, but the ‘treat everyone with respect, and support other cyclists’ side.

It depends on whether you see the Internet as life. There are huge numbers of people (on helmet threads admittedly) attempting to deride helmets and persuade people not to wear them, utilising arguments about how widespread wearing will lead to compulsion and put people off cycling. I’m fairly agnostic about the ability of a helmet to save my life in the event of a nasty accident, butI think the suggestion tat people should be better informed about helmets presupposes that there s reliable information about them. There largely isn’t, which plays a little into the hands of the anti-helmet camp where the absence of evidence is often used as evidence of absence in terms of helmet efficiency. It is also the case that there is a lot of crap evidence about. For example the ‘cycle helmets cause rotational injury’ idea comes from a retired engineer who runs a website called something like the Cyclists Rights Action Group. Despite the fact that this is purely a theoretical problem, with no evidence at all on an epidemiological level, and despite practical tests carried out showing they don’t, this particular idea is still trotted out in a regular basis despite the hugely dodgy provenance.

There are huge numbers of people (on helmet threads admittedly) attempting to deride helmets and persuade people not to wear them, utilising arguments about how widespread wearing will lead to compulsion and put people off cycling.

On this thread? Or even huge numbers? I’d suggest they’re vastly outnumbered by those who call people who don’t wear helmets stupid. You can give me an example to prove me wrong if you like…

while the hats outweigh the non hats in doing this they have not been alone.

An example of a non-hat preaching patronising or abusing, Junkyard?

The thing is, generally the non-hats are people who’ve actually thought about it more. Of course I’m including myself and people like me in the non-hat category for the sake of this argument – given that I’m very much against compulsion and not terribly in favour of widespread use by casual cyclists, despite the fact I almost always wear one when riding (a bike).

On this thread? Or even huge numbers? I’d suggest they’re vastly outnumbered by those who call people who don’t wear helmets stupid. You can give me an example to prove me wrong if you like…

This still, believe it or not, is a mountain bike forum, which means people tend to ride with helmets off road, carrying that over to road riding. If you go to a road riding forum you’ll se a lot of anti-helmet stuff, with places like the CTC forum having a marked anti-helmet majority. I’m not sure you can say that non-helmet wearers have thought about it more. Perhaps people who argue on helmet threads have thought about it, but given the standard of evidence, I’m not sure that Evans much. I would have thought that the casual BSO non-helmet rider probably hasn’t thought about it at all.

rogerthecat – Member

teamhurtmore – Member
It really is no one else’s business.

Unless you fall off and receive some form of head trauma, at which point it becomes a whole lot of other people’s business.

No, it’s still none of their business

If you go to a road riding forum you’ll se a lot of anti-helmet stuff, with places like the CTC forum having a marked anti-helmet majority.

Deriding helmet wearers?

I may not have phrased my comment about non-hats having thought about it more very well (I’m not sure I’ve phrased that very well either, but CBA to fix it). I thought it would get the context from the quote above that I was referring to those commenting on this thread.

Who’d have thought, no TJ and still 16 pages. He’d be so proud.

Who’d have thought, no TJ and still 16 pages. He’d be so proud

He emailed me – he is 😀

An example of a non-hat preaching patronising or abusing, Junkyard?

The thing is, generally the non-hats are people who’ve actually thought about it more.

Not abuse, not preaching – you reckon it’s patronising? Given the use of the word “generally” at the start, and given some of the contributions of the hats, I thought it was fairly factual.

sure lots of the hats think the non hats have not actually though about it either

To be fair its not that bad and I get your general point but it was to easy an internet “win ” to resist 😉

There is no doubt the hats have been the largest, loudest and the rudest and by a clear margin though and some have indeed regaled in their refusal to think or read on the subject as it is so simple

Unless you fall off and receive some form of head trauma, at which point it becomes a whole lot of other people’s business.

If I fell off, mashed my brains and my wife had to spend the next 50 years feeding me through a tube as I dribble at her, that’s other people’s business – hers, as well as mine. Hypotehtically, if I were to be too pig headed to take any kind of precaution against this, then other people who also care about me could easily be justified in entreating me to do so. For my sake and my wife’s.

There is no doubt the hats have been the largest, loudest and the rudest and by a clear margin though

And along comes molgrips to prove the point: “too pig headed to take any kind of precaution against this” 🙄

kilo – Member
No, it’s still none of their business

Yes it is.

And along comes molgrips to prove the point: “too pig headed to take any kind of precaution against this”

What does that prove? I didn’t say all non-hats were pig headed, but undoubtedly some are.

Hypotehtically, if I were to be too pig headed to take any kind of precaution against this,

Such as cycling more slowly?

Yes.

Incidentally I hold back my speed sometimes for that very reason – as well as wearing a helmet.

I’ve not had chance to ride off road lately.. any riding I’ve done has been restricted to lugging the kids about.. to and from school, to the park, beach and bimbles along the prom etc and as a result I haven’t worn my hat so much (maybe the heat played a part in this too)..

then this morning I realised that by not wearing some sort of head protection I was being a bit **** ish to my family, so I’ve put it back into service today..

Hope that clears the whole helmet debate up for everyone.. 8)

Incidentally I hold back my speed sometimes for that very reason – as well as wearing a helmet.

So there are times you don’t hold back your speed? Why not?

What does that prove? I didn’t say all non-hats were pig headed, but undoubtedly some are.

It’s nicely indicative of the abuse the Non-Hats receive when they choose not to wear a helmet. See also:

“by not wearing some sort of head protection I was being a bit **** ish”

🙄

you roll your eyes young man, whilst you’ve still got voluntary control of ’em.. 😆

I really think it should be a legal requirement to wear a helmet while cycling on any public road. Debating how/if motorists may behave differently when cyclists are wearing a helmet is just silly.

Would you drive a car with no seat belt on the assumption that you wont be in an accident? No. So why ride a bike without a helmet on the assumption that you wont be in an accident?

So there are times you don’t hold back your speed? Why not?

Hmm.. dunno, I am usually holding back to some extent on downhills or flats. Sometimes I hold back more than others though – if I am on my own, somewhere there’s no-one nearby to help me, that kind of thing. Likely consequences of a crash also make me slow down – lots of trees close to the trail or a big drop etc.

I generally go my fastest at trail centres where the trails are somewhat safer and max speed is not all that high.

The point is that sometimes I hold back more than others.

Would you drive a car with no seat belt on the assumption that you wont be in an accident?

Of course they would – they’d just drive slower until they felt safe.

I really think it should be a legal requirement to wear a helmet while cycling on any public road. Debating how/if motorists may behave differently when cyclists are wearing a helmet is just silly.

Quite right, because if we all wore helmets, we’d be more like Australia and less like Netherlands…

I really think it should be a legal requirement to wear a helmet while cycling on any public road.

Even though the evidence is that compulsion would result in less people cycling, and hence cause far greater harm to the overall public health than the odd banged head?

I don’t think you’ll find many supporters of compulsion here, even amongst the strongly pro-hat posters.

Debating how/if motorists may behave differently when cyclists are wearing a helmet is just silly.

Why’s that then?

Hmm.. dunno, I am usually holding back to some extent on downhills or flats. Sometimes I hold back more than others though – if I am on my own, somewhere there’s no-one nearby to help me, that kind of thing.

So you’re making a risk assessment based on circumstances.

I do the same when deciding whether or not to wear a helmet.