[Closed] kids cycling to school without helmets... is it me or?

Impossible to enforce.

Once they cross the threshold the school has no control over them and helmets aren't cool in the eyes of some youth.

Is there an epidemic of kids getting killed from preventable brain injuries?

i mean surely the school should insist on compulsory helmets or at the very least be very pro-active in promoting their usage

compulsion, no. Encouragement (postive) yes.

TandemJeremy - Member

Is there an epidemic of kids getting killed from preventable brain injuries?

and so it begins.

Please step away from the thread tj - you know this won't end well even if you are correct.

Back on topic, at my child's school the police just turned up at the school one day with a box of flouro vests and helmets. If you rode in to school and wanted one there was a free helmet for you. Sorted

Wot -the epidemic of brain injuries?

And another helmet thread.

Just a reminder that it's the brain hitting the inside of the skull that does it damage and a helmet doesn't chnage that much. Even if you land on the helmet rather than your face.

Rather than worrying about helmets haow about some measures that might make a difference such as a 1m overtaking law, 20mph speed limit in all residential areas, a mobile phone jammer in all vehicles... .

Impossible to enforce.

Once they cross the threshold the school has no control over them

A couple of years back our youngest ones school stopped him cycling to school because he hadn't done the cycling proficiency [or whatever it's called now]
It started getting all silly so I backed down in the end [to save the lad getting grief]

I am, personally, pro-helmet, for some personal reasons. However, I'd rather see kids riding to school without them, than driven half a mile in a mummy wagon or chelsea tractor.

how about some measures that might make a difference such as a 1m overtaking law, 20mph speed limit in all residential areas, a mobile phone jammer in all vehicles... .

Hear hear

And another helmet thread

yes maybe, but more that i knew i would get some reasoned arguments from many trains of thought and wanted to weigh the views up and see if i was blinkered or no in my view.

i am biased, in the 80's when i started riding mtb i refused to wear a helmet for years. i finally bought one because i had begun to ride with a lovely girl who then said she would'nt ride with me any more unless i wore one. within a few weeks of getting one i had a huge head first stack at speed, split the lid, and i'm fairly sure my life would be very different if it had'nt been for that bit of polystyrene on my head.

don't get me wrong i'm all for the kids actually riding more than whether they have a helmet or no, lord knows there are some criminally lazy parents in that school who live within a half mile and always drive. that too me is a worse thing by far.

20mph speed limit in all residential areas

totally agree. i fought for 7 or so years when i lived in the village for that. i can go on chapter and verses about traffic calming et al. but the biggest barrier issue, in cornwall, is the highways department who are inept to say the least.

the village is 20 btw, but no calming measures so largely ignored.

As much as I don't like them I suspect that the reflective vests are more important than helmets as cars are in such a rush in the mornings I'm not convinced that they see very much at all 🙁

I am, personally, pro-helmet, for some personal reasons. However, I'd rather see kids riding to school without them, than driven half a mile in a mummy wagon or chelsea tractor.

+1

I'm with TJ (sort of) on helmets, it should be entirely a personal choice. My lad often goes out in the field next door without his helmet, he only ever seems to come back covered in mud with a big grin on his face, no major head injuries yet. However in the skatepark it's always helmets and pads.

Agree with reflective vests too, brilliant things on the road.

School's have the 'loco parentis' issue to think about. It runs to getting kids home on the bus so why not to vests helmets etc for pupils who ride home?

What are the stats from Australia?

Rather than worrying about helmets haow about some measures that might make a difference such as a 1m overtaking law, 20mph speed limit in all residential areas, a mobile phone jammer in all vehicles... .

I like those ideas. I vote for you as secretary for transport (or whatever).

duke - I think a pinch of salt is needed as you visit this site but it collates / links to much data on what has happened in Australia
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/helmet_damage.html

No reduction in head injury rates, many less people cycling basically

Won't someone please think of the children.

TJ we all know your well documented views on this issue from here. Some think you have a point here [or the debate is not as clear cut as prima facie it would appear], myself included. However I will wear one and insist my kids do as well
it does your on line persona/image no favours to engage on this issue.
Encourage an deducate yes but enforcement is no more possible than enforcxing the parents dont park on the zig zags and they all wear seatbelts etc

Cheers TJ

I assume it takes a generation for it to not seem an issue. Look at seatbelts. Like a seatbelt in a car I feel wrong on a bike without my helmet.

TJ, as a pretend expert on anything and everything you might want to check English grammar books and learn that it's fewer people, not less people.
Back to OP, I'm there with you. I ride with a helmet on my head, so does my daughter. I don't care what statistics TJ provides given a tenth of a chance say, a slow-speed spill without one will mean unnecessary pain and injuries if there's nothing between the head and the surface.

My nipper and me for that matter don't wear helmets unless we go and play in the woods. Don't know why and never really give a thought.

You stand more chance of avoiding head injury wearing a helmet in a car than on a bike, Duke. Enforcing helmet wearing in cars would save lives and the statistics are there to prove it unlike the stats for bicycles. There's a Bath uni study to show you're more likely to be knocked off your bike when wearing a helmet as drivers take less care around helmetted riders.

junkyard - merely giving duke the info he asked for.

I won't enter the debate beyond that honest injun

We all rode bikes as kids. I don't remember anyone dying. When we got motorbikes (and helmets) I do remember people dying. Then we got cars, and more died. I remember one kid dying playing rugby. Same applies to my lad's generation. A few dead from cars. None from bicycles (and they didn't wear helmets either).

So on balance I think kids tend to die of things other than bicycles.

That's an idea. Everyone should wear helmets apart from cyclists.

Wearing helmet to go on his bike is just a natural thing for my kid. Instilled in him (not enforced) from the start. Anyone who thinks their child would be safer without a helmet is an idiot in my book. Seem to recall the "top" poster to this thread has no children of their own. Hmmm.

edukator the study shows that cars give you a wider berth if you are unhelmeted no one was actually hit doing the research.
iirc it is because drivers assume a lycra helmted rider is less likely to swerve and more skilled etc. A long blonde wig gave the largest gap as well iirc.

Depends what you're riding like and where.

If I was out alone caning it through the trees and rocky stuff I'd be wearing one. Out with my young nephew taking it steady maybe not, unless I was showing him what he should be aiming for. I remember riding with older, fast lads when I was younger and thinking fk yeah I'll have some of that when I'm older.

Any time spent on the roads at all then yeah I'd be wearing one 100% of the time. There are some total, total sh1tbrains on our roads immersed in their living-rooms-on-wheels.

Recovering from a bad motorcycle collision as a result of a farmer breaking the law while driving.

The ctc think wearing helmets looks dangerous and can discourages people from taking up cycling.

I've heard that nonsense in Junkyard's post before. Well, I actually ride regularly on the roads in busy traffic, unlike these effin researchers. I see (and have video evidence of) many fools without helmets almost being driven off the road by motorists, cut up, pulled out on and the rest. Makes not the blindest bit of difference." Blindest" because so many motorists are completely blind to there even being a bike there, let alone whether rider has a bloody helmet on or not.

[edit] many many things are more discouraging to cycling then helmet wearing eg. The amount of traffic; being a lazy bastard. Helmets come way down the list.

Riding in town? Nobody in their right mind would let a child ride in traffic would they? Not that I see how a helmet helps when you get run over by a truck.

I don't really think that a kid pootling down the pavement to school really warrants a helmet. I never really insist on my son wearing one unless I reckon there is a risk of him crashing, and he is not going to do that on his way to school.

I'm not saying people should force their kids to wear helmets, I just think some of the arguments against it are total bolox

Let nature take its course ...

unless I reckon there is a risk of him crashing, and he is not going to do that on his way to school.

Sorry if this has been posted before, I don't make it through most of the helmet threads.

I think this [url= http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_the_potential_for_cycle_helmets_to_prevent_injury___a_review_of_the_evidence.htm ]TRL research[/url] is pretty even-handed and thorough. If you've got time to read it, it's free but you have to login. It's "in favour" of helmets.

I read a few things after reading a thread here a few months ago that had some thoughtful posts by LHS amongst others.

From what I can gather, there's still a a good deal of research being undertaken about the long-term impact of 'minor' concussion - the type that a cycle helmet might prevent.

Seeing all the wrongly-sized, ill-adjusted helmets being worn by children I wonder to what extent they are actually protected.

I think there's a whole area of promoting parental responsibility here rather than compulsion. Cycle more often and wear helmet!

Why do people always talk about death or brain damage with the helmet debate. Isn't it enough that even a slow speed bump on the head really hurts without a helmet but often doesn't with one.

I used to cycle on my paper round, then to school and never wore a helmet. The speed limits around schools were 30 as well. I still seem to be alive.

Used to hide my helmet in the plants at the end of the road and pick it up coming home!

The idiots that will drive too fast near a school will still do it with lower limits, speed cameras don't get bad drivers off the road and traffic police only seem to sit where money is to be made.

When schools are coming in or out what's the chances of being near the limit anyway?

Anyway helmets - why the hell should the school be providing them? If the parents aren't forcing the child to wear them it's nothing to do with the school. Some communication may be needed with the parents though to insure they're not hiding the helmet like me!

is it me or is that a bit crazy, i mean surely the school should insist on compulsory helmets or at the very least be very pro-active in promoting their usage? they have to wear helmets to do the training so they have them.

**** off!! there are enough utterly pointless rules at Schools nowadays.

Kids can and should legally cycle on pavements, teach that and good traffic awareness to them rather than to be afraid to ride without a polystyrene bunnet

This is what my son looks like when riding his bike, sometimes:

[IMG] [/IMG]

But when he's out on the street with his friends, he wears whatever he wants.

[img] [/img]

"Can you let me know when/where I will have an accident next as i find them a bit diificult to predict"

Well I cant comment on you but I can be fairy confident that my son will not crash riding along the pavement on the way to school, therefore no helmet required.

[b]gavtheoldskater[/b] Its not the school's responsibility, and not only would it be unworkable and unenforcable to make kids where helmets it would probably reduce participation, and certainly not develop the children's own ability to assess risk and act accordingly. You survived - so in all probability will your children. The only reason I'd have any concern is if the problem was nowhere sensible / safe to store your helmet.

[b]TJ[/b] Why do you think the population is aging? Its because all the kids are getting killed (although only half of that is cycling related the other half is paedophiles).

[b]ds1[/b] I've not read all the TRL report but it makes clear its own weaknesses, in particular the effects on rider and driver behaviour but also e.g. assumes helmets fitted correctly (when they are often not) and seems to suggest better for falling off than hitting vehicles. I always expect a TRL report to lean towards an improvement in safety - even if it is marginal - because thats the sort of people TRL are. It doesn't seem to look at value or economics (either to individuals or society), and I think falls significantly short of making a strong claim "in support" - only a watered down 'correctly fitted helmets will help in some circumstances' type statement - which I read between the lines as "we're unconvinced of a compelling widespread benefit"

[b]acj[/b] Indeed - this is certainly the main driver for me wearing one! However WRT the OP - thats how kids learn - "ouch that hurts = maybe I'll not try that again or maybe I'll get a helmet!"

[b]GW[/b]School age kids are not legal on (most) pavements - although I've no objection to them being there.

Ds1... Last comment is very true. Well said.

Thanks everyone. Really intersting comments. Apologies to those who thought its an old chesnut.

Gw... No need to tell me to f off, i asked for debate not contension.

Ianv... Theres a kid who rides in front of their mother every morning sans helmet on the pavement who scares the crumbs out of me. I drive super slow past them, others don't.

Poly... As per my earlier post. Yes i did survive until the 90's but I would probably not be here in this capacity if at all but for a helmet.

I wasn't telling you to "**** off" Gav, I'm saying "**** off" to the idea that "Schools school should insist on compulsory helmets", they are already pro helmets when bikes are involved within School, it's nothing to do with them outwith tho.

Poly - how exactly can kids be prosecuted for riding on the pavement? genuine question.

I find it a little odd when an adult says they won't ride a bike at all without wearing a helmet. are these peoples balance and judgement when on a bike really so bad that they feel they're risking injury anymore than if they were walking along that quiet road or bridleway etc? or is it they're so rad they're pushing their boundaries every second of every ride?

Ianv... Theres a kid who rides in front of their mother every morning sans helmet on the pavement who scares the crumbs out of me. I drive super slow past them, others don't

I often see kids with trad polysytrene helmets dangling but not pisspots. I wonder why parents don't get the kids those. Well I don't wonder really, but they are much more practical, cool and longer lasting especially for 11 year old with bmx bikes. what would you wear, that or a coconut from tescos.
I;m not even going to start on the pro'sand cons of helemts. Pointless argument that should be relegated to its own section of the forum 😀

I do think that the non-parents should poke off and let the parents take responsibility for the bahaviour of their children. Your view on whether my kid should wear a helmet or not has as little to do with you as the colour of clothes I dress them in. Save your anti-helmet stance for another thread.

OS - have you spoken to the school about it? I have seen schools that insist if the kids are bringing bikes onto school premises that they wear a helmet - so it may well be a local issue.

have you spoken to the school about it?

no, hence this thread. before fring off mr.angry letters i wanted to gauge whether my view was rational or no. and having read/mulled it over some more i am beginning to think that active education, encouragement and reward (they already get rewards for cycling in) to wear is better than a blanket compulsory stance that may limit participation.

thats it, i'm off surfing!

Every one should observe [url= http://www.cyclingmobility.com/cycling-health-and-safety/ ] cycling safety [/url]!Cycling without helmet is very dangerous, all parents must understand that!

belonthium - Member

Cycling without helmet is very dangerous

Really 🙄

Surely it's down to parents to persuade their children to wear helmets if that is what they think is best for them, nothing at all to do with the school.

and for what its worth. Cycling without a helmet is not "very dangerous".

I had a fall last year and broke my collarbone and smacked the side of my heard on the ground, not wearing a helmt. It took a several weeks for the swelling to go down and several months for the pain to go when I tried to open my jaw fully.

I have smacked my head on the ground several times whilst wearing a helmet, and probably harder, and not had any of these issues.

Enough evidence for me...

I won't bore people any further on my views on helmets as they have been documented quite well in other threads. One thing I will say is that although I believe like most that wearing a helmet should be a choice not a law, children should be actively encouraged to wear helmets, and IMPO parents who don't make their kids wear helmets are irresponsible.

The issue of rotational injuries does not really come into it with children like it could with adults as they are travelling at much slower speeds, and if you look at the type of accident a child is likely to suffer it is the low speed, unbalanced fall to the side where they have a serious risk of an impact onto a protruding object like the corner of a wall, kerb-stone as well as just a uniform impact onto the pavement where you are not only concerned about impact injuries but also about penetration. In these circumstances don't hesitate to understand the level of protection a well fitted helmet offers your child.

unless I reckon there is a risk of him crashing, and he is not going to do that on his way to school.

Can you let me know when/where I will have an accident next as i find them a bit diificult to predict

So do you were protective gear all the time then? After all, you never know what might happen.

Each to their own then I suppose. Like I said before it depends how and where you're riding.

GW's 'rad' statement is a bit of a stupid statement in my opinion. Sometimes I ride super steady for most of the ride then want to push it for a couple of minutes at which point, because I can't magic up a helmet out of thin air I am glad I put it on to begin with.

I mean what's the argument for not wearing one?? Looking uncool? I feel for you such people and don't feel you should be treated if and when it happens. Good luck to you, it's true, you might get away with it.

As for the 'used to ride to school and I'm still alive statements', me too. Only 15 or so years ago but how busy have the roads got and how many more distractions (sat navs, ipods etc) are there for drivers now? Not to mention how noiseless and insulated even basic cars have got and the fact that most have air-con only amplifies the 'bubble'. People don't rely on common sense now as they used to in most areas of life, they spend more time looking at their speedo than the road. Living to the rulebook.

Each to their own. I'll be wearing mine.

Why do I feel like this statement has been made a few times before I joined this site.

Guess there's no 'rulebook' answer, only common sense.

"IMPO parents who don't make their kids wear helmets are irresponsible"
turn your head away now before you have a heartattack!
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5204/5320211965_11d438d0d6.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5204/5320211965_11d438d0d6.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37621241@N05/5320211965/ ]IMG_2675[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37621241@N05/ ]ianvincent[/url], on Flickr
However, when the need arises:
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4991137076_219498c7c4.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4991137076_219498c7c4.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37621241@N05/4991137076/ ]felix valnord[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37621241@N05/ ]ianvincent[/url], on Flickr

There is a time and place for everything and being overly protective means your son/daughter will end up being the office health and safety bore in a future life.

As for the 'used to ride to school and I'm still alive statements', me too. Only 15 or so years ago but how busy have the roads got and how many more distractions (sat navs, ipods etc) are there for drivers now? Not to mention how noiseless and insulated even basic cars have got and the fact that most have air-con only amplifies the 'bubble'. People don't rely on common sense now as they used to in most areas of life, they spend more time looking at their speedo than the road. Living to the rulebook.

This is true, but I think that just making the people on the receiving end suit up and get ready to be ****tted is not the right approach. Every helmet enforcement case like this is a step down that road rather than addressing the actual problem and that's a large part of why I personally don't like them.

MrSalmon I'll admit that's one argument against I'd not considered.

I've had a motorbike crash and been laid in the road with people looking at me like I was just a 'type'. There's a disconnection with a suited up motorcyclist as if there's not a human being under the leathers and lid. Suppose the fact that someone looks more fragile might make people take more care when passing or look at this in a different light.

I don't want it made the law. This would be very bad as it would add another page to the Dummies Rulebook for Life

Poly - how exactly can kids be prosecuted for riding on the pavement? genuine question.

[b]GW[/b] - I'm not sure which of these questions you are asking:

(1) Is it illegal for a child to ride a bike on the pavement
(2) How would a prosecution happen for such an offence

So I'll try to answer both, in my laymans understanding. Before I do, I'll reiterate that I actually don't have a problem with children riding bikes sensibly on the pavement (and possibly even adults) where its likely to be safer than on the road (its not always, motorists are usually predictable - pedestrians are not!). So without diverting the thread off course and into the rights or wrongs of pavement riding, I thought I'd address the factual information. It worth noting that whilst pavement riding is illegal, prosecutions are rare. Prosecutions for children riding on pavements will be even rarer still - and I've certainly seen teenagers and adults riding past police without even a comment.

(1) [i]Is riding on the pavement illegal?[/i] Firstly there are subtle distinctions about what we actually mean by a pavement, but if we are talking about a footway immediately adjacent to the carriageway then it is illegal to ride a bike under there which the Highway code identifies as being illegal - HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A 1984, sect 129.

(2) [i]If my kids are breaking the law - how can they be prosecuted?
[/i] Firstly it will depend on their age. If they are below the age of criminal responsibility (10 in England and Wales, 12? in Scotland) they won't be - although a pedantic copper might argue you were "willfully leading them" if you were there. If they are over that age then they could in theory be prosecuted with a fine of up to £500! In reality on the rare occasions adults are stopped for this it is usually dealt with as a £30 fixed penalty notice, however I'm not sure if these have an age limit (some offences seem to? but e.g. graffiti doesn't). As I've said it is normally overlooked - but I guess if they ride into someone, particularly if it happens to be a copper/local Councillor/the copper's mum etc then you might not get away with it!

I think I read somewhere that toddlers bikes (pre-school age - based on wheel size) aren't considered to be bikes in law. I can't find that.

I think I read somewhere that toddlers bikes (pre-school age - based on wheel size) aren't considered to be bikes in law. I can't find that.

Could be, as they're often sold with only on brake which is illegal.

it could be a kids face next time.

ianv - you are clearly an irresponsible parent - you've allowed your son to get better skills than me!

billysugger - your perception of driver stupidity and your risk may have increased in that 15 years but the accident statistics don't match up with it. The traffic stats are also showing a slight drop in the last 12 months, even at its peak the increase was only about 25% more traffic than 15 yrs ago.

phil - what about cats?
[img] [/img]

miketually - are you sure? I think you'll find its not illegal to sell a bike with only a single (front) brake. EDIT - I think you may be looking at "adult bikes" (seat height > 635mm). I think there are separate rules for kids bikes and then "toddler" bikes/scooters etc are exempt...

miketually - are you sure?

No. Or overly bothered 🙂

Seat height makes more sense that wheel size for deciding whether a bike is an adult's or not, though may give dwarfs the freedom to ride on pavements.

bravohotel8er - Member

and so it begins.

OK so since TJ's forbidden from pointing out the bleeding obvious, can I? The numbers just don't support mandatory helmet use. It's a completely disproportionate response. Understandably an emotive one but that's not a good argument in favour.

I think one of the reasons people tend to go directly to compulsion rather than education, is that it's so difficult to make a compelling argument for helmet use. "Wear a helmet kids, we can't prove it works to any extent, but it's common sense innit?" We tell smokers that smoking is bad for you and we hold up evidence, we don't do that with cycle helmets because of the lack of compelling evidence.

As for schools- enough schools have anti-cycling attitudes already without adding another difficulty to the mix. If there's energy to be spent on the subject it should be going towards more cycle friendly schools, more cycling training, more cyclist awareness.

ajc - Member

Why do people always talk about death or brain damage with the helmet debate. Isn't it enough that even a slow speed bump on the head really hurts without a helmet but often doesn't with one.

That's why I always wear one tbh, it's good enough reason for me- the dent I put in the side of my Flux in France wouldn't have killed me but it'd probably have spoiled my day and maybe my week, that's good value. But, that's no reason to try and force it on other people.

And PS the responses to TJ in this thread are bloody despicable.

I have to say I don't really give a toss about statistics - just my kids safety!

It is easy to fall of and 99% of the time they'll be fine but an avoidable head injury is just that with a decent helmet.

Who rides off road with out a helmet?

As for mandatory helmet use - I don't support the idea. Its up to individuals and I look after my kids and what other people do is there business.

But if we want to be pedantic ****ts about it most bicycle helmets will do naff all for your head if you are in a 25+mph collision. You'll be wanting a motorcycle helmet for that.

I think people should try and get in their heads that [b]appropriate[/b][u] protection is required for the activity being carried out.
You can all argue appropriate out between you, but a 100Km on the tourer on the backroads at a moderate pace won't see me with a helmet on, but nailing it offroad where the chances of an off are much much higher will see me with one on.
This brainwashing that seems to be going on that cycling without a helmet is inherently unsafe needs to stop and people should be encouraged to consider the risks and take responsibility for their own safety.

Wear a helmet kids, we can't prove it works to any extent, but it's common sense innit?"

take responsibility for their own safety

I can be [b]fairy confident[/b] that my son will not crash riding along the pavement on the way to school, therefore no helmet required

My kids have never banged their head while riding or falling off their bikes. They regularly come home from school with "I banged my head" stickers.

Ergo, they should wear helmets at playtime at school but not while riding their bikes.

I've never hit my head while riding my bike but I gave it a right crack when in the back of a transit van.

Ergo, I should wear a helmet when in the back of a van, but not while riding my bike.

re;
small bikes having one brake.
a bicycle which has a fixed wheel only needs a front brake to comply with the law.
many (really small) kids bikes only have a front brake, but all the ones ive ever seen like that have a fixed wheel.

We've had kids bikes with one brake and a freewheel.

Thanks Poly, it was (2) I was asking. and that's what I thought 😉

Junkyard - Member
If you [b]do[/b][s]nt[/s] crash you are either not trying hard enough or dont [s]commute[/s] [b]commit[/b] enough

fixed that for ya 😉

😆
Clever

IanV's kid looks cool as **** in both pictures.