Jeremy Corbyn

Ernie – serious question

Do you honestly think that the voters of this country, who have never elected a government with views as left wing wing as Corbyns …

I made the mistake of thinking that it might be worth reading one of your posts binners but I stopped right there. If I wanted to read drivel like that I’d pop down the road and get myself a copy of the Daily Mail.

You have obviously never heard of the 1945 landslide Labour government which was closer to Fidel Castro than I am to Corbyn. Or the later Labour governments whose reforms such as decriminalisation of homosexuality, equal pay for women, and race relation acts, just to give a couple of examples, transformed what was still a conservative society. Nothing Corbyn suggests is a radical as that.

I asked a couple of pages ago why some people are still claiming that Corbyn is far-left, it was a genuine question as I am genuinely baffled as to why some people believe that. I got nothing and now you trot out the little gem that Corbyn is more left-wing than the 1945 Labour government which created the Welfare State.

At the start of this thread you were one of Corbyn’s most vocal supporters now you’re ranting that he’s so extreme Left that you know with complete certainty that he would lose the general election.

What’s changed, apart from the target of your ranting? Has Corbyn swerved massively to the left since the start of the thread? Has Labour witnessed electoral meltdown since the start of this thread?

And poor old big_n_daft is so lacking in ammunition to attack Corbyn that s/he resorts to accusing him of having Alzheimer’s.

In fact the obvious lack of ammunition Corbyn’s enemies have, the PLP want to blame him for the fact that over 17 million people voted to leave the EU, convinces me more than ever that Corbyn is the right man for the job.

I supported Corbyn’s election as I thought every other candidate would be eaten for breakfast, just as Miliband was. I thought Corbyn would more than likely fail but the others definitely would.

The one hope for Corbyn in my mind was that he’d be a breath of fresh air that the disenfranchised could relate to and support. That he could get his message across and gain support from the young on a ticket of hope and of alternative. The long shot was that this could create a movement that dragged people along and gained momentum up towards the election where people would finally be fed up with the Tory lies.

Unfortunately that’s not going to happen and Corbyn has been exposed as leader just at a time when he needs to be stamping his authority. He’ll never recover from this.

Problem is if there’s a new leader we’ll be back to my original thought. the prospective candidates will be eaten for breakfast……. So what do we do?

OK ernie as the only informed Labour historian here

Why did Labour lose the last election?
What happened to the core vote?

Should be easier enough to answer….

charisma of, say, Bernie Sanders or Neil Kinnock

Well ALLRIGHT!

jambalaya – Member
We can compare this to Newcastle United, the supporters weren’t satisfied with mid-table and a manager and owner from down South, only a Geordie would do. Now they are in the Championship with an owner from down South.

Another Jamby missing the point on something…. Once you have learnt about Europe we can do football…

You have obviously never heard of the 1945 landslide Labour government which was closer to Fidel Castro than I am to Corbyn

Some how does that relate to today?

There are plenty of obvious candidates……

rhetorical again??

there isn’t anyone who would be credible in the current generation that want the job now due family or other issues

I assume labour are holding out for 2025 as their next best chance

rhetorical again??

😉

Just matching the mood BnD!!

You have obviously never heard of the 1945 landslide Labour government which was closer to Fidel Castro than I am to Corbyn

Some how does that relate to today?

May I?

The suggestion is that Corbyn is not as “left wing” as the media is potraying him, if you look back into recent history. They are whipping up a foam of nonsense despite the fact that even when the Labour Party WAS really left wing, nationalisation of just about everything, they won by a landslide…

As I understand it. 8)

I think that large parts of the labour party need to stop spitting the word Blairite out like its a swear word too. Grow up FFS!

Yes, the man is odious on a personal level! Yes, we view everything through the toxic legacy of Iraq. But to discount everything else is absolutely ridiculous. He was elected with a landslide. Then re-elected twice (despite Iraq!). When I look around the northern towns, at the schools, libraries, Surestart centres, and facilities that were built, you have to ask yourself would any of that stuff have been built if we’d have had 3 Tory administrations during that period. Well given that they’re presently trying to close them all down, or sell them off, I think we all know the answer to that. What about the minimum wage?

This centre left administration did a lot of good. Just imagine what the Tories would have done in that time? They’d probably have devised a way to privatise the air we breath by now.

So for the people now at the top of the labour party to just reject this out of hand. To use it as a term of abuse, and totry and purge it from the party is patently ridiculous. Its petty, and juvenile, and more importantly it is completely counter productive to a population that has shown in election after election that it quite likes the centre ground. Enough to vote for it in the last 5 elections. Because although Dave has been derided as the heir to Blair, its won him 2 elections. And the administration about to be ushered in now I fear is about to show us how truly centrist Dave was.

Which is why now more than ever, Labour needs to re-occupy that centre ground. The PLP knows this. The almost Maoist cult of Jeremy are far too blinkered to see whats staring them in the face.

And the last time they did that, they cast themselves into the political widerness for the best part of 2 decades

chakaping – only just read your post, thanks for the clarification.

I don’t agree with your suggestion that Corbyn is a poor communicator though, on the contrary, I think he is an excellent communicator.

He’s not a great public speaker but Tony Blair was and I never knew what the **** Blair was trying to say. No one knew what Blair was saying when he made speeches, they just thought it sounded good. Although the WI weren’t impressed when they famously slowed clapped him.

Corbyn has the ability to speak very clearly and make others understand exactly what he means. I am convinced that every time Corbyn is interviewed in a TV studio and is asked relevant questions Labour gains a few more votes.

How do think Corbyn went from absolutely nowhere at the start of the leadership election to winning it by the biggest margin in Labour Party history if it isn’t the skills he has to communicate his ideas to people? Was it all that good press he was getting what did it?

Morning binns.

I assume that your position on the question of “What is the Labour Party for” is for persuading change for the “better” by working inside the system, would that be fair?

How do think Corbyn went from absolutely nowhere at the start of the leadership election to winning it by the biggest margin in Labour Party history if it isn’t the skills he has to communicate his ideas to people? Was it all that good press he was getting what did it?

That’s a very good point. 😯

mikewsmith – Member

“You have obviously never heard of the 1945 landslide Labour government which was closer to Fidel Castro than I am to Corbyn”

Some how does that relate to today?

Yes it does.

Because today is the day that binners said :

“Do you honestly think that the voters of this country, who have never elected a government with views as left wing wing as Corbyns”

HTH

No one knew what Blair was saying when he made speeches, they just thought it sounded good.

Yes… thats why he won 3 elections, because people liked his speeches, even though they didn’t understand them

Jesus! Typical bloody left wingers. You think people only reject what you are advocating because they’re thick? And if only they’d let you get on with running things, then they’d soon learn whats best for them comrade?

And then they wonder why they never get elected? I’ve never heard such sanctimonious, superior, patronising drivel in my life

@ ernie

I think, however, that the collective character of the current voting public may just have changed in the past 76 years.

You can’t extrapolate those past circumstances and overlay them on today’s situation. It’s not a good fit.

@ binners

So what you are saying is that lying to and nanipulating the public to get what you want is ethical?

Does the end justify the means, then?

I’ve never heard such sanctimonious, superior, patronising drivel in my life

Corbyn has the ability to speak very clearly and make others understand exactly what he means. I am convinced that every time Corbyn is interviewed in a TV studio and is asked relevant questions Labour gains a few more votes.

I agree. The problem is no-one wants to give him airtime so others can listen.

Calm common sense and rational thought doesn’t sell papers or get coverage. Accusing MEPs of never working while in Brussels or stabbing your mate in the back does.

Didn’t you complain earlier that all binners wanted to do was post pictures, ernie?

Although i do like the conceptual link to “the end justifying the means”… 😆

Didn’t you complain earlier that all binners wanted to do was post pictures, ernie?

Why would I do that? It’s up to binners what he posts. If he wants to post pictures and ask me if I fancy mefty why would it bother me?

.

@ ernie

I think, however, that the collective character of the current voting public may just have changed in the past 76 years.

You can’t extrapolate those past circumstances and overlay them on today’s situation. It’s not a good fit.

You need to direct that comment at binners not me.

It was him that was making the point concerning how voters have voted in the past, not me.

I think, however, that the collective character of the current voting public may just have changed in the past 76 years.

This. If 1945 is your electoral reference point Ernie Labour in England and Wales is going to look like Labour in Scotland. Corbyn is as far left as I can remember and I’m going back to Michael Foot.

Today is a quiet day in respect to the Somme commemorations, we are then going to resume the in-fighting and we’ll have Chilcot and the Momentum crowd with be in full voice. Full self destruct mode. If PLP can’t force Corbyn out relatively quickly I can see a 2020 GE result of 150 Labour MPs. Once they are seen as being unable to win an election just as in Scotland their support could evaporate.

ernie_lynch – Member
Didn’t you complain earlier that all binners wanted to do was post pictures, ernie?
Why would I do that?

Erm, dunno. Why would you do that?

It was him that was making the point concerning how voters have voted in the past, not me.

I thought it was you who was saying that the 1945 result was an example of why Corbyn’s appeal would be popular today. Did I not read that correctly?

“You have obviously never heard of the 1945 landslide Labour government which was closer to Fidel Castro than I am to Corbyn. ”

I thought it was you who was saying that the 1945 result was an example of why Corbyn’s appeal would be popular today. Did I not read that correctly?

No you didn’t read it correctly.

I was pointing out the obvious nonsense behind binner’s claim that voters have never elected a government with views as left-wing as Corbyn. All Labour governments before Blair were more left-wing than Corbyn.

Ah.

I agree. The problem is no-one wants to give him airtime so others can listen

True he can but he is not a soundbite man and we live in a sound bite world. His point in israel yesterday was clear but it required the whole quote and that wont happen in general in the media. How many folk read or heard the whole speech?
they just get Labour anti semitic rant when denying anti semitism
Now any thinker./informed person knows this is BS but the tabloid reader wont.

He needs to learn this as the entire debate is dumbed down.
One of the reasons Blair said nothing

Like Obamas Yes we can or Trumps Make America win again
Its sounds great but it is empty pithy rhetoric

the public love it though…sadly

I was pointing out the obvious nonsense behind binner’s claim that voters have never elected a government with views as left-wing as Corbyn. All Labour governments before Blair were more left-wing than Corbyn..

And everyone goes misty eyed and yearns for the halcyon days of power cuts, 3 day weeks, uncollected rubbish and calling in the IMF, don’t they Ernie? Such magical times.

Dear god! Talk about being completely detached from reality

teamhurtmore – Member
OK ernie as the only informed Labour historian here

Why did Labour lose the last election?
What happened to the core vote?

Well maybe it had something to do with the 750,000 Scots living in England.

Quite a few were Labour voters, and those I know did not vote Labour after Milliband joined the hatefest against Scotland and made it clear he would not work with the SNP.

That of course is purely anecdotal. I wonder if anyone has done a survey, it would be interesting to know if it had an effect.

However I think that cost Labour a lot of support.

It certainly cost them Scotland which used to return 40-50 Labour MPs and now has only one.

That of course is purely anecdotal. I wonder if anyone has done a survey, it would be interesting to know if it had an effect.

They have – that what is so intriguing, why ignore it?

Still a bit of internal mud slinging is always fun to watch. The only question is which is more entertaining the Labour or Tory version.

Good job there are no serious issues to deal with….

The only question is which is more entertaining the Labour or Tory version.

One is really important and will have a potentially huge effect on all our lives
One is a pointless circus

But you’re right… I suppose in the absense of anything important to worry about, this is what happens….

binners – Member

And everyone goes misty eyed and yearns for the halcyon days of power cuts, 3 day weeks, uncollected rubbish and calling in the IMF, don’t they Ernie? Such magical times.

Dear god! Talk about being completely detached from reality

So you gone from claiming that voters would never vote for someone as “left-wing” as Corbyn (despite you voting for him to be leader) to now claiming, after you realise the nonsense that you’ve spouted, to, left-wing governments are rubbish.

And you’re too clueless to realise that the 3 day week was under a Tory government.

You don’t need to be a Labour historian to know that, only what you are actually talking about – it helps.

One is a pointless circus

On the contrary, I think an effective opposition is vital especially at the moment.

But it is extraordinary how people/parties are unable to step back and assess the situation in front of them. Labour have just elected two “leaders’ who are/were not up to the job. The Tories did it before then (IDS, Howard and a too-young-at-the-time Hague). And there is a good chance that both might do exactly the same again.

Its a perfect illustration of how-inward looking they have become and how largely unfit they are for purpose. Still their “me, myself, I” approach is probably quite reflective of society at large, so in that respect we do get the politicians we deserve. Good job no one wants them running large parts of the economy. Imagine that…..

Just stating what it is Hurty. Not what it should be.

But Ernie and his comrades seem absolutely determined to have us all visit their quaint little 1970’s theme park, until we all realise how brilliant it actually was/is and vote Jeremy in with a landslide.

Its not if, its when, comrade

*salutes Red Flag*

Politics is all a lot of bullshit really, isn’t it…

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing binners

Meanwhile….

Out of interest, has Eagle spread her wings yet?

Your skills at posting pictures clearly outweigh your skills at constructing coherent arguments binners, I would stick with that.

In the meantime I’ve got stuff to do – happy picture posting 🙂

Corbyn is unelectable and Boris is a vote magnet. Time to rub it all out and start again 🙁

tmh there was a PLP meeting at 10:30 I suspect out of respect for the Somme anniversary we’ll hear nothing today. As I posted there is hope he may agree to quit perhaps after Chilcott, he got what he wanted with a Leave vote and I think he really wants to have his day over Iraq. After that there is nothing left.

Nice line from Martin Kettle in todays Grauniad:

Once again the Conservative party has proved why it has a PhD qualification in political ruthlessness, while at the same time the Labour party is struggling to even manage a GCSE retake

Quite

After that there is nothing left.

Intended pun?

Once again the Conservative party has proved why it has a PhD qualification in political ruthlessness, while at the same time the Labour party is struggling to even manage a GCSE retake

😀

teamhurtmore – Member
‘That of course is purely anecdotal. I wonder if anyone has done a survey, it would be interesting to know if it had an effect.’
They have – that what is so intriguing, why ignore it?

I was meaning if there was a exPat Scots voters resident in England effect.

If there has been a survey done on that I seemed to have missed it.

Maybe any effect was cancelled out by the equal bile coming from the Tories, but upsetting a large group isn’t likely to get you votes from them..