Jeremy Corbyn

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  • Jeremy Corbyn
  • allthepies
    Member

    A couple of questions for interest.

    Why do people think Labour lost the last election ?
    And why would having Corbyn as leader change that ?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    cranberry – Member

    They really don’t, you know.

    That must be why they’ve started the hatchet job so early? The tory press are a useful tool for Labour members- they should give the most consideration to the candidates that receive the most attacks, these are the people that a) have been identified as a threat and b) aren’t tories in disguise. Electing anyone the Telegraph doesn’t hate would be a terrible mistake.

    IHN – Member

    The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don’t seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing. As has been proved in basically every election ever, the only way to win is to win over the centre, and really centre-right, ground.

    Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election, Blair came to the table knowing he’d already been dealt a winning hand. It fits the blairite creation myth to claim he made labour electable but it doesn’t stand up to examination.

    The last election shows that you can put forward a terrible leader, and run a disastrous campaign, allowing your enemies to set every agenda and playing the whole thing on their turf by their rules, while working hand in hand with your fantastically incompetent Scottish leader and losing the entire country at a stroke- and still come within a 3.5 point swing of the tories. People want to use it as proof that there’s no way forward for the left but it’s no such thing. The double irony being that Miliband wasn’t even particularily leftwing.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I want politicians of conviction that don’t bend with the wind and stand up for what they truly believe in. I want politicians that only want power to alter the country to their vision. Politicians that turn themselves inside out to makes themselves sufficiently vanilla or worse still have little passion in the first place is a sad state of affairs.

    This 100%. That Tony Benn quote Mhairi Black used the other day would seem to apply here. I don’t expect he will, but I hope Corbyn wins. Those who say it will doom the labour party to permanent opposition are missing the point.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    But ^ that way, convert, you end up a long way from consensus politics as you have a “permanent” opposition with no clout. No influence on the political direction at all. Yes, all your conviction politicians and their supporters will sleep soundly at night because they just know they’re right, but they will have achieved nothing in the real world.

    Labour are at their best, not necessarily when they own the centre right ground, but when everyone else thinks it’s possible they could make enough people believe in the centre left.

    In the current two and a bit party system you are correct. I hope in my lifetime we have developed a more mature true multi party political system where all national opinions are truly reflected and we have coalition governance based on genuine negotiation between conviction based parties (including single issue parties). Not sure it’ll happen though – too much self interest in maintaining the current system by folk who hold all the cards.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    The last election shows that you can put forward a terrible leader, and run a disasterous campaign, allowing your enemies to set every agenda and playing the whole thing on their turf by their rules, while working hand in hand with your fantastically incompetent Scottish leader and losing the entire country at a stroke- and still come within a 3 point swing of the tories. People want to use it as proof that there’s no way forward for the left but it’s no such thing. The double irony being that Miliband wasn’t even particularily leftwing.

    Good point!

    Premier Icon Garry_Lager
    Subscriber

    Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election. It fits the blairite creation myth to claim he made labour electable but it doesn’t stand up at all.

    Since 1951, when Churchill defeated the Atlee government, one person has won an election on a left wing platform (he did it twice). So I wouldn’t call IHN’s statement revisionism.

    Even Atlee, a popular pick for greatest, most effective PM of the twentieth century, only really got one term out of the electorate.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    We know that when policies are anonymised, people as a whole are more left wing than their voting patterns might indicate.

    Doesn’t that suggest that what people say they believe in, and how they vote, are at odds?
    Which further suggests that “listening to what people say” rather than how they vote, will keep you in opposition.

    Under First Past The Post, you have to win more “least bad option” votes from people picking between options they don’t really like, than genuine “support the policies” conviction votes.

    So the Labour Party has to worry far more about scaring the “hold your nose and vote” voters away, then it does about pushing forward policies that its “true supporters” believe in.

    Sad but true.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    what kelvin said, really, parties are trying to attract;

    1) older people (young people don’t vote in enough numbers to worry about)
    2) the middle ground – they need to attract the 10% of people who actually vote that might be trying to decide between the two main parties.

    The two things that would radically change the electoral outcomes in the UK are;

    a) compulsory attendance at a polling station (or postal vote/opt out)
    b) proportional representation.

    PR’s already had a referendum and people didn’t like it and no party’s going to increase the number of people voting unless they can see a clear permanent advantage for them in it so that won’t change either.

    So we end up with elections fought over nuances of policy and personality.

    sobriety
    Member

    I’m going to sign up and vote for him, just becasue come the next election I’d like an alternative to my previous choices of red/yellow/blue tories.

    Premier Icon ahwiles
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    wwaswas – Member

    PR’s already had a referendum and people didn’t like it

    we had a referendum on AV, which is different. Different enough for lots of people to vote ‘No’.

    fin25
    Member

    Corbyn has no chance, the vote is still a while away and most of this is hype/scaremongering by the media, mainly because he’s the only candidate that isn’t properly dull.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    we had a referendum on AV, which is different.

    indeed, but not different enough for there to be a further referendum any time soon 🙁

    hexhamstu
    Member

    I think a lot of people make the mistake that milliband lost because he was too left or mirrored too many conservsative policy. I believe it came down to Ed Milliband not tackling the lie that Labour caused the economic down-turn. David Camerons “Labour got us here and we are putting in the hard work to get us out”. was swallowed hook line and sinker and Ed Milliband never tackled this head on or wasn’t given the chance due to most newspapers being conservative led.

    The C4 interview posted here, I can understand why Corbyn flew off the handle. The same thing has been brought up again and again that he called then “friends” and not really ever discussing the issue.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    @wwaswas- unless Scottish voters are drastically different from English ones, the last election suggests that’s not the case. Scotland’s response to the Labour lurch to the right was to wipe them out. And the rise of UKIP in England suggests otherwise too.

    Yes, the choice between the tories and labour is made on nuance and personality; but that’s a symptom not the cause imo.

    @hexhamstu- totally agree. And tbf that’s not just Milliband’s fault, or his team; it’s what happens when you’re a political party that doesn’t know who they are. If you don’t have a tune to dance to, you dance to whatever tune someone else plays.

    The irony of this; if people had responded in the same way to the downfall of thatcher, there’d be no David Cameron.

    ninfan
    Member

    Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election,

    Funny, I remember hearing the same about Kinnock going into the ’92 election…

    The thing forgotten abou the ‘core vote’ movement is that every vote you win from ‘natural labour supporters who didn’t vote’ in that direction, galvanises support for the tories at the other end of the spectrum through fear of a labour win, hence you saw Tory majorities increasing, seats won back from the lib dems, and voters flocking back from UKIP in the last election

    That’s why you have to win on the centre ground, its as much about not mobilising support from the Tory heartlands as about winning swing voters

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    ninfan – Member

    Funny, I remember hearing the same about Kinnock going into the ’92 election…

    What, that Kinnock died 3 years before while holding a 23% point lead in the polls, and then someone else took over and won? 😆 I think that’s just a bit too much revisionism.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    unless Scottish voters are drastically different from English ones

    I think on this occasion they were, it came on the back of the whole independence thing and whilst people didn;t vote for that they didn’t want the old Westminster club to continue unchanged.

    Whilst UKIP probably did some damage the problem for Labour is (and will continue) to be that the way constituencies are drawn up means they have a relatively limited number of seats they have a hope of winning in England.

    Labours core vote is still very heavily in areas associated with an industrial age that no longer really exists;

    they are struggling to find a way to appeal to voters outside of those areas.

    I don;t know whether the solution is to present themselves as a true ‘left wing’ party or continue to chase Tory marginals tbh.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    wwaswas, this is arguably more useful

    Shows seat distribution a bit more clearly by equalising size

    ninfan
    Member

    But seat distribution doesn’t reflect population does it, with the biggest seat having double the electorate of the smallest.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The mess the labour party is in is all down to Blair. Another thing we’ve got to thank him for. Due to his messiah complex, and his intolerence of free-thinking or disent, he hollowed out the party from the inside.

    He parachuted MPs into labour seats, in most cases completely against the wishes of the constituancy party, who were just careerist yes men (and women) who would unquestioningly tow the party line. The Claire Shorts and Robin Cooks were soon despatched to the back benches. All decisions were then taken by Tony and his little cabal of spin doctors, Campbells minions. No debate, no discussion, no other opinions alowed to intrude on the One True Path. It became like a cult. Cabinet ministers were little more than spokesmen given their lines to read.

    So now that some actual analysis, fresh thinking, and direction is needed, and god forbid… actual ideas!… its no wonder they’re not up to the job really, is it? They’ve never had an original thought in their lives. They’re just drones.

    Steve Bell had it rght portraying them as baked beans…

    hexhamstu
    Member

    If the polling is to be believed the average voter agrees mainly the left and socialist policies:

    https://data.voteforpolicies.org.uk/countries/results#countries/england

    Which means that in an election policies actually mean **** all. Charisma and having the tabloids on your side means much more. David Cameron is obviously much better at this than Ed Milliband was. There was so many things you could attack the tories over and I just think he failed. It had nothing to do with his policies. I think alot of the possible labour leaders are far too obsessed with winning an election they are blinded. Allowing themselves to believe that to win you must be like the current winners. If to win you have to mirror conservative policies there would be truly no point in doing it apart from to secure a career as an MP.

    dragon
    Member

    That poll is self selecting, so will be dominated by the younger middle class views and cannot be considered representative of the UK electorate.

    cranberry
    Member

    A socialist labour leader would-be great

    On that we agree. I’ve paid £3 to make it happen. It felt dirty and wrong to give money to them, but I figure that with their financial incompetence it’ll not do them that much good.

    except that the right ght wing press have already started monstering him before he’s even elected, of course the Tories/right wing. Press/ paymasters are scared of him

    They aren’t monstering him, they are laughing at the prospect of him becoming leader. He is Screaming Lord Such, with very nasty friends: [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0kTDLahcE[/video]

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Which means that in an election policies actually mean **** all.

    I reckon this is broadly true. For most people it makes little or no difference who the govt is. Osborne’s last budget was a perfect illustration of this. He was roundly congratulated for his political manoeuvring in adopting labour’s main flagship election policies, rather than being criticised for it either on the labour or tory side. The trouble is that the people who suffer (or benefit) most as a result of govt policies have almost no voice. Without effective parties or representatives to voice these views then there’s no point. If you compare politics to law, it’s like both defence and prosecution are the prosecutors.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    The transmigration of souls.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Doesn’t that suggest that what people say they believe in, and how they vote, are at odds?

    Yes it does. It may also suggest that if the Labour party is able to articulate a clear, credible message, and stop playing the Tories’ game, then just maybe there is more appetite for that message than is commonly supposed.

    ninfan
    Member

    Wasn’t it Len McCluskey who (in the early days) said that Miliband was the best leader of the Labour Party since Foot 😀

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!
    especially when a tory leadership election is just a battle of plastic tony blair clones and stirs so little interest among anyone
    sadly this illustrates the gullible are easily led by the tory press and their corporate agenda, unless a PM tries to position himself in the centre right ala Blair/Cameron they will dictate the debate to the electorate and help their preferred candidate into power

    bencooper
    Member

    Which means that in an election policies actually mean **** all.

    This may also be because no-one trusts politicians of any party to actually stuck to their manifesto promises. Policies mean **** all because they’ll be changed.

    hexhamstu
    Member

    Yes it does. It may also suggest that if the Labour party is able to articulate a clear, credible message, and stop playing the Tories’ game, then just maybe there is more appetite for that message than is commonly supposed.

    ^ This

    cranberry
    Member

    its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!

    You can keep telling yourself this whilst rocking backwards and forwards in the corner of your room, but repeating it will not make it true.

    I’ll p*ss myself laughing if he wins. Other conservatives I’ve talked to love the idea of screwing up Labour for a decade for only £3.

    bencooper
    Member

    its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!

    The right are so terrified of Corbyn that they’re paying £3 to try to get him elected leader? That doesn’t make sense.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Other conservatives I’ve talked to love the idea of screwing up Labour for a decade

    That is one very large leap of faith.

    cranberry
    Member

    It is better odds than you would get from 1.5 lottery tickets.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    This may also be because no-one trusts politicians of any party to actually stuck to their manifesto promises.

    It’s bigger than that I think. Politicians of all flavours have always gone back on their promises, and largely people accept this as they understand that things change due to events or other constraints. What people don’t accept though IMO is a politician or party completely changing their professed beliefs in a transparent and flagrant pursuit of power and self-promotion. And they especially don’t expect this from the labour party.

    Labour’s only chance of re-establishing itself and not becoming even more of an irrelevance than it already is, is to become a party of principle again with clear beliefs which cannot be changed. Of course they used to have something like this in the form of clause IV, which was got rid of, when instead they should have reformed it.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    The right are so terrified of Corbyn that they’re paying £3 to try to get him elected leader? That doesn’t make sense.

    indeed they are clearly all bonkers!

    Midnighthour
    Member

    No – its not too late to join up and vote for Corbyn – there is still time. 🙂

    I would suggest not putting 2nd or 3rd preferences on your ballot as they are going to try to use those to manipulate him out of the leadership.

    I suspect if he is winning it will be due to conservative politicians and supporters paying three quid and voting for their preferred candidate.

    Corbyn is a step left that appeals to CURRENT members but won’t win new members.

    I have never previously joined any political organisation.
    I joined Labour (chose full membership price) last week only because of Corbyn.

    I know 4 other people of various political position (but none being tory voters) who also rushed to join Labour in the last couple of weeks. People who have never previously been members of any political party and they have all joined just to vote for Corbyn. I have been amazed how he has brought out activity and enthusiasm in people who until a couple of weeks ago had given up hope with UK politics and its corruption.

    People are desperate for democracy and genuine democracy needs to offer free choice. Labour, Libral and Conservative have all been right of centre parties for some while – so there is no genuine variation in choice for voters.

    A good opposition is vital to promote debate, to highlight options and alternative beliefs or choices. Similarity of recent politics does not offer even a decent protest vote to the population.

    Corbyn is the only person offering DEMOCRATIC CHOICES for voters in the UK at this point in time instead of just more of the same. Until the last week or so (and Corbyn standing) we have lived the last decade in what is alarmingly near a ‘one party / one policy set’ state due to all parties becoming so similar, with most politicians seeing politics as a good career rather than as a belief or as a need to help others instead of helping themselves to perks and power.

    A good opposition is healthy challenge for whichever party (left, right or other) is in government and good for the population as a whole. Corbyn can reinstate an intelligent and engaged opposition – good for all of us, whatever our political party preferences are.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    I have been amazed how he has brought out activity and enthusiasm in people who until a couple of weeks ago had given up hope with UK politics and its corruption.

    yep looking at Facebook, he seems to have inspired a few people I know to join Labour.

    Midnighthour
    Member

    really, parties are trying to attract;

    1) older people (young people don’t vote in enough numbers to worry about)
    2) the middle ground – they need to attract the 10% of people who actually vote that might be trying to decide between the two main parties. “

    What they need to attract is the huge number of people giving up on voting as they feel unrepresented, rather than a comparatively trivial number of floating voters. Leading up to the last election I (left of centre) spoke to a friend who is a lifelong Tory and some friends who had moved from ex Conservative party membership to Liberal voting. All of them felt they were not represented any more and hated the self serving corruption of UK MPs – but could think of no party different enough to move votes to, from the ones they had been voting for.

    It really come to something when even those who vote are in despair about limited choice.

    That young people are not voting should also not be dismissed – its a major disaster.

    Voting and political engagement is to some degree almost a habit or mark of your view of yourself. If they dont vote when young they most likely will remain disengaged and apathetic (for good reason). Politicians of conviction (Corbyn) or who at least show some personality rather than looking cloned (Boris, Ken Livingstone) at least bring or brought the start of engagement, if you support their individual beliefs or not.

    Midnighthour
    Member

    I love the ego filled honesty of the Tory £3 voters – the willingness to tell us all what shallow, dishonest and utterly self centred people they are.

    – Lying to screw up an election (you have to make agree with a statement that you genuinely support the aims of Labour in order to join up).

    – Trying to undermining the rights of others to be represented by anyone other than a right wing party.

    – Attempting to destroy a legitimately elected opposition party by underhand means.

    What heroes. The words “integrity” and “honesty” must send you running ignorant and confused for a dictionary!

    Edit:
    I see Mr Corbyn is undermining his own chances – here IS a man of integrity

    “The Labour leadership candidate Jeremy Corbyn has called on the party to root out people voting for him in a bid to to skew the election result.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jul/16/corbyn-urges-labour-to-root-out-telegraph-readers-trying-to-skew-vote

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