Jeremy Corbyn

errr, jambalaya didn’t you say back along that you did exactly that?

I said I was thinking about it but in the end it was clear he would win so I saved the £3

Rumour that Corbyn is close to resigning (as he’s a “broken man”) and Labour may broker a deal to allow him to be in place for Chilcot next week then go.

Do you not get it Ernie? You really don’t, do you?

I’m a lifelong labour voter. I’m passionate about social justice. I got it from my politically active, guardian reading parents. I despise the Tories agenda.

Yet I think Jeremy Corbyn and his cohorts of tragically juvenile lefties are a joke! A joke that isn’t even remotely funny

If I think he’s utterly unelectable, then what do you think the average Middle England floating voter living in a marginal constituancy thinks?

Maybe take a step back for a moment, stop singing the Red Flag, and have a look at yourself and your Corbinite Comrades – look at the farce of this weeks no confidence vote – and then ask yourself if you’re in any way providing a vision of anything, or any answers, that anyone other than a little cult would want to vote for in a general election. You know…. the one about the people you want to run the country? It’s tragic that this is what’s become of the Labour Party.

And yes, I know…. that rot goes a lot deeper and further back than Corbyn. But he’s making it infinitely worse with every day that passes

Labour is currently supporting all of the Tory government’s policies.

So that’s the new politics Jeremy speaks of ? 🙂

Do you not get it? You really don’t, do you?

I thought we had agreed that your “Corbyn is worse than Rolf Harris” rants wouldn’t persuaded me ?
Try to accept that.

I’ve already said that I accept you hate everyone.

I have no intentions of trying to change you, so save yourself the bother of trying to change me.

Who do you want to take over from Corbyn Binners?

You keep your head buried in the sand comrade. And enjoy your trip back to 1983.

Meanwhile, let’s briefly return to the real world, shall we? And to ironically paraphrase Nigel Farage : I want my party back

And CTK – I don’t know. I’ve not heard what people have to say yet. I’ll judge then.

But The whole excercise is an irrelevance anyway. The Corbynites think the battle to keep him in power is the be all and end all. When I say power, I don’t mean being in number 10. I don’t mean actual power. I mean sitting and rejoicing in victory over your perceived enemies, in your little parochial way, while completely forgetting that there’s a bigger picture – at the moment a hugely bigger picture – that you will not have the slightest influence on. But you can wave your little red flag in the 6th form common room. And that’s what mattrrs

I want my party back

Listen mate you would be ranting whoever was leader of the Labour Party. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that.

In the last year or so you’ve gone from fanatically supporting Andy Burnham to fanatically opposing Andy Burnham, from fanatically supporting Corbyn to fanatically opposing Corbyn.

The one thing that can said about you is that you don’t do things in half measures. I’ll give you that.

I want my party back

Whose party?

How did Tony Blair first come to prominence?

(Might be a clue in there somewhere…)

Why has the media been so down on Corbyn from day one anyhoo?

I want my party back

Blair era?

Ernie – I’m possessed with the self-awareness to know that in the same way as a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, in the ceaseless bollocks I generally spout, I”m very occasionally right. Once in a while. Rarely, admittidly. And as I’ve said, I wanted the whole Corbyn thing to work. I thought it was a new aproach. But it’s been an unmitigated disaster. And it risks handing the tories a hegemony, so you need to look past the rhetoric and be more pragmatic, and acknowledge that

Alan Johnson is on the weekly politics now. Hardly an arch ‘Blairite”. He was asked why his party didn’t respect Jezza. His answer: “because you can’t instill respect by intimidation”.

And I’m sorry but the whole Momentum thing has that air pretty unpleasant air about it. There’s nothing worse than someone being so convinced they’re right that they think that gives them the authority to impose their will, and stifle any dissent

Why has the media been so down on Corbyn from day one anyhoo?

I’m not sure there is a conspiracy against Corbyn by the media as such JHJ (apart from the Tory press obviously) although I have heard it suggested that the media is under intense political pressure.

However I think the media as a whole takes a keen interest in Corbyn because as leader of a major political party he is different.

He is different to other major party leaders and previous recent Labour leaders in that he doesn’t subscribe to the neoliberal consensus of austerity, corporate power, aggressive wars, tax cuts/avoidance for the very wealthy, development of weapons of mass destruction, privatisations, etc.

So for those reasons he attracts a lot of attention. Which when coupled with outright hostility from the Tories, the Blairites, and the Tory press, gives him quite a hard time.

Plus of course if he wins the 2020 general election he will make Tony Blair look extremely silly which by definition will also make a lot of other people also look extremely silly.

A lot of people are very determined that Corbyn should never win a general election. And a lot of other people are very determined that he shouldn’t give up. I don’t envy him, truly.

“because you can’t instill respect by intimidation”

How do party whips work?

(Aside from dirt books and cleaning up indiscretions involving minors?)

in the same way as a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, in the ceaseless bollocks I generally spout, I”m very occasionally right. Once in a while. Rarely, admittidly.

Actually if you want to pause and speak seriously for a couple of minutes instead of taunting and posting pictures I am happy to say that on many occasions I have found you to be spot on in your analysis. Far more so than many other people.

However what I have always found extraordinarily frustrating are your conclusions. You are an absolutely classic example of “wrong conclusions from correct premises”, imo of course.

The fact that you understand so many of the problems is what makes it particularly frustrating. If you didn’t understand the problems then I wouldn’t find it frustrating, plenty of people don’t.

binners – Member

Alan Johnson is on the weekly politics now. Hardly an arch ‘Blairite”. He was asked why his party didn’t respect Jezza. His answer: “because you can’t instill respect by intimidation”.

Scary Corbyn, going around giving the MPs chinese burns. What the genuine ****.

On the subject of intimidation, here’s a few interesting snippets:

Whips can often be brutal to backbenchers to secure their vote, and will resort to a mixture of promises, threats, blackmail and extortion[4] to force an unpopular vote. A good whip will know secrets and incriminating information about Members of Parliament. A whip should know major figures in an MP’s local constituency party and the MP’s agent.

For a minister, the consequences for defying the party whip are absolute: they are dismissed from their job immediately, if they have not already resigned, and return to being a backbencher. Sometimes their votes in Parliament are called the “payroll vote”, because they can be taken for granted. The consequences for a back-bencher can include the lack of future promotion to a government post, a reduction of party campaigning effort in his or her constituency during the next election, deselection by his or her local party activists, or, in extreme circumstances, “withdrawal of the whip” and expulsion from the party.

How relevant is this[/url] under the circumstance…

The earlier version of the Sky News report, which has now been completely scrubbed from all published versions available online, suggested that the sudden uprising was not spontaneous, but carefully planned.

The report quoted Sky News political correspondent Sophy Ridge accusing one of Corbyn’s own whips, Conor McGinn MP, of coordinating the resignations to “try to cause maximum impact”:

Meanwhile, the party’s leaders in the Lords – Baroness Smith of Basildon, Labour leader in the Lords, and Lord Bassam, the chief whip – are likely to boycott shadow cabinet meetings while Mr Corbyn remains, a spokesman for the House of Lords said.

Former shadow education secretary Lucy Powell, who resigned on Sunday, insisted the resignations were not a ‘planned coup’ against Mr Corbyn, but a reaction to the ‘seismic’ events which have shaken Westminster in recent days.

But Sky’s Senior Political Correspondent Sophy Ridge said she understood that the man choreographing the resignations is Conor McGinn, Labour MP for St Helens North.

She said: ‘He’s ringing shadow cabinet members and ministers, organising the timings and co-ordinating the resignations to try to cause maximum impact.

‘This is significant because he’s one of Jeremy Corbyn’s Whips – tasked with ensuring party discipline.’

The censored Sky News passages confirm that Conor McGinn worked closely with Hilary Benn, Corbyn’s now resigned Shadow Foreign Secretary, in coordinating the sudden spate of resignations.

Benn, a supporter of the disastrous 2003 Iraq War, was Secretary of International Development under Tony Blair.

In addition to McGinn, the deleted Sky News paragraphs reveal that two of Corbyn’s other most senior whips had also been involved the coordinated mutiny: Baroness Angela Smith of Basildon, who as of May 2015 has been Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords; and Lord Steve Bassam, Jeremy Corbyn’s chief whip.

Democracy at work…

Thanks JHJ, your link gave me two bits of information which I didn’t know about. First this :

Jeremy Corbyn does not need MPs’ support to fight a fresh leadership election

I knew that they were seeking legal advise but I hadn’t realised that it had been established, and frankly I wasn’t hopeful.

And secondly this :

Labour members increasingly bullish on Corbyn’s chances[/url]

I was aware that his approval ratings had increased since he became leader but I only knew of older polls.

That’s really cheered me up. I now think that as long as he doesn’t give up the coup is more likely to fail.

I have to say that in the past I have found some the adulation directed at Corbyn by some in the Labour Party a tad nauseating, and I had recently become quite critical of his lack of action in redemocratising the party.

But I am starting to see him in a different light now. His determination in the last week not to let those who count on him down has been exemplary. He has shown significant leadership qualities imo.

And if he survives he will have proved how he can cope in highly stressful situations. A quality which he would need as prime minister and one which until now I wasn’t that convinced he possessed.

Look at the contrast with Boris Johnson who was so easily outmaneuvered and threw in the towel as soon as the plotters revealed their hand. They done him like a kipper.

Plus of course if he wins the 2020 general election he will make Tony Blair look extremely silly which by definition will also make a lot of other people also look extremely silly.

A lot of people are very determined that Corbyn should never win a general election. And a lot of other people are very determined that he shouldn’t give up. I don’t envy him, truly.
personally I think BoJo has more chance….
He has appeal to the left of the spectrum, his chances of convincing the centre to vote for him are slim to none. All he has done is really eliminated a split and vote leak to the Real/Old/Socialist Labour movement.

As a party they are ready fora split, it would probably please a lot of Corbyn’s supporters if it happened (initially) but they wouldn’t be able to pull the funding over.
As somebody said earlier a greater spread of smaller parties who were actually united forming coalitions might not be a bad way. Let the Far left go left, let the swivel eyes loons go right stop having to pander to their views along with the mainstream.
Sound familiar

The four left the Labour Party as a result of the January 1981 Wembley conference which committed the party to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. They also believed that Labour had become too left-wing, and had been infiltrated at constituency party level by Trotskyist factions whose views and behaviour they considered to be at odds with the Parliamentary Labour Party and Labour voters.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_(UK)

also on website registration I’d probably be looking to collect a few possible ones just in case – doesn’t mean a conspiracy just being slightly more organised and removing your head from the sand

but they wouldn’t be able to pull the funding over

Have you some information to suggest that? My understanding is that some major trade unions are very likely to disaffiliate from the Labour Party should the PLP coup against the party be successful.

A party with a lot of MPs but few members and little funding will struggle. They certainly won’t win the next general election.

Sound familiar

The four left the Labour Party as a result of the January 1981 Wembley conference which committed the party to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. They also believed that Labour had become too left-wing, and had been infiltrated at constituency party level by Trotskyist factions whose views and behaviour they considered to be at odds with the Parliamentary Labour Party and Labour voters.[citation needed]

And where are they now? The answer is in political oblivion. Ultimately it was a failed Labour right-wing split. It did help the Tories win the general election though.

As your wiki article points out the two principle reasons for the Four breaking away was Labour’s policies of unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community.

Today unilateral nuclear disarmament is the policy of the governing party in Scotland. And one of the Four, David Owen, resurfaced during the EU campaign to strongly make the case in favour of leaving the EU.

A right-wing Labour MP famously called the 1983 Labour manifesto ‘the longest suicide note in history’ because of its commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. Today they appear to be very “electable” policies.

It seems that the Labour Party back then was just ahead of the times.

And where are they now? The answer is in political oblivion. Ultimately it was a failed Labour right-wing split. It did help the Tories win the general election though.

You could also say that the left side of the Labour party has been in the wilderness ever since? Did they ever get elected? Was the shift to the centre in 97 the only reason them managed to get past a deeply unpopular government who were basically shagging everything that moved and doing a heap of dodgy deals?

Today unilateral nuclear disarmament is the policy of the governing party in Scotland. And one of the Four, David Owen, resurfaced during the EU campaign to strongly make the case in favour of leaving the EU.

A right-wing Labour MP famously called the 1983 Labour manifesto ‘the longest suicide note in history’ because of its commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. Today they appear to be very “electable” policies.

It seems that the Labour Party back then was just ahead of the times.
Great, is that their current poilicy? Being ahead of the times or behind them is the same thing electoraly – useless. The issues that formed a split are irrelevent it’s the same problems that are brewing now.
Can you ever see a time where the Corbyn/Left side of the party are ever electible? As in people not like you thinking they are the best option going forward?

The PLP are either simply looking after themselves as career politicians or being pragmatic enough to understand you can’t change anything in opposition.

The current fight is over the name of the party and who gets to keep it.

I was talking about the electors of the MP’s in the general public who gave those MP’s the mandate to represent them.

So you are assuming that the Labour Party members as they were last summer, and th trade unions who supported Corbyn are the “arrivistes”? Because that is who got him in. It doesn’t matter whether you are looking at that from the point of view of the PLP or the ordinary voters, the evidence points to theae people always having been close to the Labour Party as opposed to being over-run by militant socialists.

And then remember the far out crazy policies Corbyn was talking about at the time? Renationalisation of the railways, reversal of changes to the nhs, that sort of thing? How quickly we forget that statistically his policies at the time were remarkably popular across all voters (including conservatives in the case of railways iirc) trident was the only really contentious one in there.
Recent council and by elections, and polls/ surveys even very recently simply do not support your idea that Labour voters in their droves are turning away from labour asking “wtf happened to my party and its policies” and Corbyn’s difficulties lie not in the popular vote but in the media, people who won’t vote labour whatever happens, and the PLP. Oh and Binners now. whoever is in charge of labour, the challenge is as much about getting the young and disenfranchised non voters on board and managing the gerrymandering[\s] boundary changes ahead of us.

according to Ernie

Labour is currently supporting all of the Tory government’s policies.

The Corbyn leadership hasn’t produced a single policy change to date, he’s like Victor Meldrew type character railing against the government with no actual ideas of his own to replace the policies he so objects to. The way he can say things which are objectionable makes it look like he has a political form of Alzheimer’s

The current fight is over the name of the party and who gets to keep it.

assets, cash, and funders needed to be added to that list

ernie_lynch – Member
‘but they wouldn’t be able to pull the funding over’
Have you some information to suggest that? My understanding is that some major trade unions are very likely to disaffiliate from the Labour Party should the PLP coup against the party be successful.

A party with a lot of MPs but few members and little funding will struggle. They certainly won’t win the next general election.

I think they’ll get funding no problem. From the foreign billionaires whose interests they have been serving from the day they turned the Labour Party into the Red Tories.

Corbyn is showing his real leadership now. He has patiently waited until the Blairites have taken enough rope.

Not that I want him to win – as long as the Labour party is infested with Blairites it’s never going to gain traction in Scotland and they’ll not be able to effectively oppose independence because of the contempt we have for them for selling out.

But for the sake of the poor, the vulnerable, and working people, I hope Corbyn sticks in there because no other major party really cares.

The PLP are either simply looking after themselves as career politicians or being pragmatic enough to understand you can’t change anything in opposition.

And thats the rub. Jeremy Corbyn isn’t going to win an electoral majority now, next week, or in 2020. He is unelectable before the events of the last week.This week, electoraly, he’s a dead man walking. .

I just can’t get my head round why his supporters think he is.

Ernie – serious question

Do you honestly think that the voters of this country, who have never elected a government with views as left wing wing as Corbyns (even before labour lost every seat in Scotland!), are suddenly going to have some kind of socialist epithany, ushered in by the present Corbynist line, and realise the error of their centrist ways? If so, why? What evidence is there at all to support this? Because I can’t see any. What am I missing?

As I’ve said countless times, the party needs to re-enter the real world, as it is, not how they’d like it to be. This is the world that has just voted us out of Europe, and 12 months ago elected David Cameron with a commons majority that not even he thought he’d get. I just fail to see how anyone thinks that veering shaprly to the left is ever going to lead to anything other than permanent oposition? Effectively just becoming a pressure group. One that those in government can just ignore.

How on earth is delivering a tory hegemony doing anything the labour party is meant to do? I think the left of the party needs to stop its ridiculous student protest posturing, and face up to reality

Corbyn is showing his real leadership now.

That’s the scary part…hold the front pages…”read all about it, real leader emerges, read all about it”

…meanwhile out in the real world (remember that?)

Thanks goodness people can turn to The Tories err The Lib Dems err The Greens. Phew, so who is in charge at the Greens these days?

binners agrees with DC shocka!

Thanks goodness people can turn to The Tories err The Lib Dems err The Greens. Phew, so who is in charge at the Greens these days?

I think they are having elections to get a new leader, the problem is the only person anyone has heard of is doing a Carswell (i.e. doesn’t want the job and won’t stand)

someone neither left nor right wing so you will be voting for them I assume

BnD – it was a rhetorical question.

A a time of constitutional and economic chaos, leadership of the major parties has gone AWOL

Hello, anyone there?!?

@ julianwilson

So you are assuming that the Labour Party members as they were last summer, and th trade unions who supported Corbyn are the “arrivistes”

No.

It doesn’t matter whether you are looking at that from the point of view of … the ordinary voters,

I don’t agree.

And then remember the far out crazy policies Corbyn was talking about at the time? Renationalisation of the railways

Well, quite.

How quickly we forget that statistically his policies at the time were remarkably popular across all voters (including conservatives in the case of railways iirc)

Insert historical John McEnroe statement here…

Recent council and by elections, and polls/ surveys even very recently simply do not support your idea that Labour voters in their droves are turning away from labour asking “wtf happened to my party and its policies”

I didn’t say that.

For what it’s worth, which objectively probably isn’t much in the grand scheme of things, I will say this for him – he certainly sticks to his guns. I think the earlier comparison with the Black Knight from Monty Pythons Holy Grail is misplaced. He still has all his base support limbs.

I think he’ll probably win another internal leadership election and then the Labour MP’s opposing him will have to figure out what they are going to do next, given that there will ge no way back to the front bench for them.

Although, of course, my opinion is only semi-detached as I’m not currently a supporter of his party, floating voterly out here in my normal non-algned position on the observational couch… 8)

Binners.
What do you think the Labour Party is for?

Serious question, btw.

A the moment Comic Relief opposition to HM Government.

RS – here’s a question for you – why did Labour lose the last election, what happened to the core vote?

I’ve no intention of engaging with you thm, please don’t bother.

Rusty Spanner – Member
Binners.
What do you think the Labour Party is for?

That’s a very good question which goes to the heart of the debate.

Does the Labour Party become able to offer a “Socialist” restructuring of society, root and branch and hope to achieve that via votes into Parliamrnt and the subsequent ability to pass laws thereto? Then retain support in the civil war that inevitably follows?

Or does it continue to try and make what it thinks are improvements to the country by compromise and persuasion from inside the system?

Aye, there’s the rub.

Indeed its a serious issue for the left as many of the traditional labour voters have been lost due to middle class intellectual liberal elites – despite the terrace house dwelling status of self and the council upbringing i am seen as one of thise

Truthfully i have no idea how I am meant to appeal to, nor do i want to tbh, to those working class who are intend on blaming immigrants rather than RW capitalists for their current plight

Solidarity has been lost, everyone thinks about themself, society is fractured, even the working class demonise the poor – who them punch themself in the face by voting to leave the EU and hand even more power to those even more RW than what we have.

I dont see how we unite on the left and i cannot see what we unite over

I respect Corbyn – though he has been a shit leader as he cannot decide whether to tbe true to himself or play the game [ national anthem for example] but I do know he wont win the middle ground voters needed to win an election

I also dont think another middle class Blairite will unite the activists

I dont see an easy solution

tp do this whilst the tory party is in disarray is terrible as well as the labour party is busy punching itself in the face over and over and over again.

Corbyn has to realise he cannot lead a team when he has lost them …its like footy manager having the owners support but not the players. It can only end one way.I guess n this case we can split the party but how the heel does that help lefties of any kind

Its a mess and this thread is just lefties squabbling [ and THM trolling]

Currently i dont think a radical left or even vaguely left message[ ernie is correct on this point] can win an election

Is there a sufficiently large disenfranchised left leaning populace who currently don’t bother to vote as even the current Labour Party doesn’t represent them? (and are they likely to be in constituencies that Labour isn’t already winning?)

This is a genuine question chakaping because I would actually be very interested in the answer, it’s something which honestly baffles me.

Why do you think Corbyn is that far left ?

I know that the Tories, the Blairites, and their friends in the media, portray Corbyn as far-left, but why does anyone believe them?

Apologies, I should have known better than to use the words “far” and “left” next to one another – that’s undermined what I was trying to say.

I don’t see Corbyn as particularly being “far left” in the ultimate sense, but he’s further left than I expected to see Labour going for a while – and more importantly further left than I think the electorate would accept at the moment.

He has a fine voting record and appears to be in about the same spot politically as myself (you are right he’s a social democrat rather than a strict socialist).

Unfortunately it seems that (like not-very-red-Ed Milliband) he’s struggled to communicate his ideas – he says all the right things but sadly doesn’t seem to have the personal charisma of, say, Bernie Sanders or Neil Kinnock (the Labour leader who won me over as a youth), to make it connect.

I think a large portion of the Labour party and wider population would quite like another Blair, just without the warmongering. David Milliband probably. I’d take that over more of the Tories obvs, but I’d hope for something better.

I’ve no intention of engaging with you thm, please don’t bother.

No need, its not my problem. But until you engage with…

why did Labour lose the last election, what happened to the core vote?

…you will condemn yourself to internal navel-gazing and petty if vicious squabbling and opposition. Your choice.

With a wide open goal in front of you, how do you think you look at the moment. A serious government in waiting?? 😯

But FFS chose a leader – and no Eagle is not the answer. There are plenty of obvious candidates……

I also dont think another middle class Blairite will unite the activists

I dont see an easy solution

We can compare this to Newcastle United, the supporters weren’t satisfied with mid-table and a manager and owner from down South, only a Geordie would do. Now they are in the Championship with an owner from down South.

During Corbyn’s election campaign people where asked would they rather have a leader capable of winning or one “true to their left-wing values” but not winning. Many chose option B and it seems thats still the case.

I do believe it will take an absolute disaster at a General Election before they get the joke. No doubt it will be a conspiracy, undue influence from the rich etc etc All excuses under the sun except looking at themselves

@ninfan Insee you’ve been busy. Guardian reports 60,000 new members last week.

A question can you join more than once ? Seems you really only need an email and postal address, must be trivial to join multiple times. They can’t possibly verify 60,000 applications in a week, doing so would cost more than £3 each.