Jeremy Corbyn

Its a coup FFS! They timed resignations for maximum impact. Tuly horrible behaviour.

I just want to know which treatise JC is getting his plays from, as an exercise in political entryism he is making a good job of it.

Is this labours Kronstadt moment?

neilnevill, cheers!

What makes it unforgivable, for me, isn’t necessary revolting against your leader- it’s the way they’re doing it. Because as has been discussed here already, there is a legitimate process by which they can challenge a leader- and they need only have the support of 51 MPS and MEPs. So all of this “you must resign now for the party’s good” stuff is just inescapably bullshit. If you want to overthrow a leader, then do so.

**** these guys. But that’s no use, because we need an opposition. So doubly **** these guys.

No that is politics, presenting your case strongly. a coup is,
noun

1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

I haven’t seen any illegal acts.

He’s been sacking members of the shadow cabinet, not for failing tp perform but for expressing views to him.

The only person he’s sacked is Hilary Benn, although it is widely accepted that Hilary Benn in effect sacked himself – you don’t start organising a coup to topple your leader and expect to have the same job the next day.

Although I find your suggestion that Corbyn has been sacking people ruthlessly fascinating, it goes completely against the grain of what his critics have been saying. Hilary Benn claims that Corbyn is “a honest decent man” he just isn’t a leader. Well he is but we know what Hilary Benn means.

neilnevill – Member

No that is politics, presenting your case strongly. a coup is,
noun

1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

I haven’t seen any illegal acts.

Can you email that to all the major newspapers……..like me they’ve been using the term incorrectly.

I will try not to use emotive language, but the simple fact is that the coalition that was the Labour has completely and utterly broken down. Corbyn as a representative of the left of that coalition has a very significant foothold in Labour Party machine – he (and his comrades – I think he would use this word) reckons and he is probably right that the membership will re-elect him. The PLP are desperately seeking to get rid of him because, in their view he will not win an election, even with the Tory party in disarray, which it certainly is. Their problem is that there is limited evidence to support this – it is all an opposition party should be doing this at this stage etc. It is only with an actual national vote that you can argue you have incontrovertible proof – and even then you can argue against it.

Ernie is happy to put forward his compromise because he is comfortable – probably rightly that the membership will stick with Corbyn. It was rumoured a compromise was being brokered today – my guess is that the Leader’s team wanted a guarantee that an alternative candidate, presumably McDonell – who is better suited based on what I have seen – would be nominated. That would never happen so we – using the pronoun loosely – have a mexican stand-off.

The PLP lost when Corbyn was nominated, he was the wrong person (although if he has been anyone else they wouldn’t have been nominated as he wasn’t regarded as a threat) in the right place at the right time.

The PLP are desperately seeking to get rid of him because, in their view he will not win an election, even with the Tory party in disarray, which it certainly is.

Well that is one point of view, but not necessarily one which I agree with, it is certainly what they are claiming though.

Personally I think someone like Tony Blair is far more terrified with the thought that Corbyn might win an election. If winning a general election was really the priority then Blair would never have backed Liz Kendall, she might as well have had “loser” stamped on her forehead.

I use Blair as an example, although admittedly a more extreme example, but I think you can apply that logic further. As you say, proof that Corbyn can’t win elections is scant.

Ernie is happy to put forward his compromise because he is comfortable – probably rightly that the membership will stick with Corbyn.

That’s not necessarily true. Yes I think he would win but that’s not my only consideration. I would happy to accept defeat if I thought that if in the future Labour Party members wanted to nominate someone else without the interference of the PLP they would be allowed to.

Labour Party members, and affiliates, and supporters, are told that it is up to them who the Labour Party leader is. All well and good, so it’s up to them to decide then.

You can’t have this situation where you tell people that they have a democratic right to vote on decision making but only if they vote correctly. That’s absurd.

But how then, people ask, do you resolve the issue when the PLP and the membership are in conflict. That question completely misses the point. No political party should be in a situation where its membership have a conflict of interest with its elected politicians.

If that situation occurs it suggests that the party is rotten and corrupt.

The Labour Party today is rotten. There’s no disputing that. Replacing Corbyn will not fix the problem. There’s no disputing that either.

The Labour Party needs to be working as one. Replacing a leader who received 59.5% of the vote, more than all the other candidates put together, and who probably would win again tomorrow, won’t achieve that.

If the PLP replace Corbyn with someone else like Angela Eagle in defiance of the majority they will lose the next general election for sure. The next general election was never going to be a walk in the park for Labour, they won’t win if they don’t work as one.

And the blame for division in the Labour Party lies firmly with the PLP.

BTW never have I seen so much support for parliamentarians on STW as I have seen recently on this thread. Usually all I hear is how politicians are self-serving, useless, greedy, lazy, overpaid, all liars, without principles, not worth voting for, and so on.

Now some people who are always so quick to denounce them as self-serving, useless, greedy, lazy, overpaid, liars, without principles, and not worth voting for, are rushing to defend them.

How strange.

Such a sad state of affairs that when the Labour party should be uniting, capitalising on a Tory party and country in disarray, the self serving **** in the party try and over throw their leader. Corbyn may or may not be able to win the next election, but if they keep on going the way they are at the moment they’ll alienate their core support even more and will definitely lose.

This idea that the Conservative Party are in “disarray” is just wishfull thinking IMHO. They look to me like a body engaged in an orderly transition. Compared to the violent eruptions taking place across the aisle, I’d say they were the most impressively organised of the two and more likely to transition with a minimum if fuss and in control of events. Markets looking up, too.

This idea that the Conservative Party are in “disarray” is just wishfull thinking IMHO

It might just be due to who they are standing next to…

They look to me like a body engaged in an orderly transition.

So far, none of them have made a pitch yet

Compared to the violent eruptions

patience, patience Mr Woppit they have just got to get going 🙂

BoJo is going to face a grilling on his EU plans and I’m guessing it’s not going to be easy. Wait and see if someone wants to pull a remain move in there too

I am coming to the conclusion that there are no real Brexiters in the controlling level of the Conservative party. BoJo is emulating his great political hero Churchill, a politician who made a practice of attaching himself to whatever party or faction he saw as progressing his own ambitions, even where they were directly opposed in policy terms. Don’t forget that Boris has always been pro-Europe. I suspect his late conversion was because he realised that such a long-term process was more likely to result in a closer union after all, once the system had been manipulated and the sheep, sorry – electorate – had been properly herded. The negotiations for the exit are going to take YEARS. I suspect that, once the political class have sorted themselves out, by 2020 and beyond, we’ll probably end up hard-wired into a Federal EU after all.

Anyway, don’t let me hijack a thread about poor old Jeremy and his pals.

I’m enjoying ernie’s dialectical precision, as ever.

Carry on.

A reality check for Ernie and the rest of Momentum/SWP cult:

5 Live have just had the heads of five Tory constituancy associations. They were discussing the relative merits of the proposed Tory candidates, listing their relative strengths and weaknesses. They were then asked who they would like to see lead the Labour Party into the next election. They didn’t even have to think about it for a second. The replies were immediate and unequivocal.

1. Corbyn
2. Corbyn
3. Corbyn
4. Corbyn
Then
5. Corbyn – with the added caveat: “to lead them to their final defeat”

ernie_lynch – Member
…No political party should be in a situation where its membership have a conflict of interest with its elected politicians.

If that situation occurs it suggests that the party is rotten and corrupt…

It seems a long time since the Labour party “elite” shared the values that its voters think that they are voting for.

So rotten and corrupt is a spot on description.

I think Corbyn should sit tight a bit longer to allow the last few Blairites to identify themselves. A leadership spill will see him re-elected with an overwhelming majority. If I was him I’d make a condition of running a leadership election that the losers resign their parliamentary seats.

The Tories may be underestimating Corbyn. He’s been walking a tightrope since he became party leader. A convincing victory in a leadership election and a putsch on the Blairites, and you’d see a different animal.

But how then, people ask, do you resolve the issue when the PLP and the membership are in conflict. That question completely misses the point.

On the contrary it seems to be very much the point. This is real life not some hypothetical politics case study.

No political party should be in a situation where its membership have a conflict of interest with its elected politicians. If that situation occurs it suggests that the party is rotten and corrupt.The Labour Party today is rotten. There’s no disputing that. Replacing Corbyn will not fix the problem. There’s no disputing that either.

True

The Labour Party needs to be working as one. Replacing a leader who received 59.5% of the vote, more than all the other candidates put together, and who probably would win again tomorrow, won’t achieve that.

If the PLP replace Corbyn with someone else like Angela Eagle in defiance of the majority they will lose the next general election for sure. The next general election was never going to be a walk in the park for Labour, they won’t win if they don’t work as one.And the blame for division in the Labour Party lies firmly with the PLP.

Ditto

Here’s a tip 😉 try stepping away from party political allegiances – unlike L’Oreal, they are not worth it. Then you can “enjoy” being dismayed at all this nonsense without taking it personally.

Far too tough trying to justify the unjustifiable!!! And a waste of time and energy. That is the point 😉

The Tories may be underestimating Corbyn. He’s been walking a tightrope since he became party leader. A convincing victory in a leadership election and a putsch on the Blairites, and you’d see a different animal.

Is that in the same way as everyone at the Euro’s has been underestimating the England squad? 😆

😆

Good to see the SoH is back binners and its spreading …

…apparently the Tories are going to position Bojo as ……wait for it…..

A “Unity” candidate. Wey, hey.

Swallow that one too…

Don’t forget that Boris has always been pro-Europe. I suspect his late conversion was because he realised that such a long-term process was more likely to result in a closer union after all, once the system had been manipulated and the sheep, sorry – electorate – had been properly herded.

True, and not a surprise. What is a surprise is the almost universal clamour here to ignore the thick proles and stay in europe. Boris may have it all sussed out.

Hurty – I’m at whatever stage of grief is represented by ‘well you have to laugh, don’t you….?’

I’m now resigned to living in a one party state with a permanent Tory hegemony, once Scotland gets independence. And I’m going to try not to get too upset as I watch the Labour party disappear up its own arse, in a cloud of quite nasty Kim Jong Un style socialist invective.

Have they released the Miliband yet?

I got a tenner on him at 7/1, so wish they’d hurry up.

I think you’ll find, thm, that the Conservative candidates are positioning themselves…

True woppitt, my sloppy English

Cheer up binns, it’s never as bad as it seems – ok, it is pretty bad but nothing a nice ride can’t solve!!!

It would seem that if one good thing were to come out of Brexit it should be a complete overhaul of the UK political landscape and voting system. I reckon it is long overdue a major revamp and the cracks that have appeared over the past weeks prove that what we have now is just not fit for purpose. We have a Labour party currently comprised a true left-wing socialist faction and a more moderate left of centre faction, both fighting to be called the Labour party (with an eye on a future election). Meanwhile the regional Nationalist and Green parties are creaming off the true socialist voters and diluting any power they may have once had. Then you have a Conservative party torn down the middle between right-of-centre moderates and true neoliberal capitalists. And potentially to the right of that come the UKIP which are poaching votes from the far right who understand their politics and from the disenfranchised from other voting factions who believe their spin.
So how to sort out this mess.
1. First thing is that the first past the post system needs to be replaced by a proportional representative system so that everyone’s vote can have a value. regardless of who you vote for.
2. We need at least 5 main parties to cover the full remit of political factions; a socialist labour movement, a social democrat party, a liberal democrat party, a conservative party, and a far right nationalist party. Throw in a green party and the regional Nationalist parties for good measure.
3. Government, would, by design have to be through coalition. This does not need to be negative and the fact that the more extreme parties can theoretically have representative numbers of MPs to match their votes is highly desirable.
4. The upper house needs reform. At the very least it should be comprised from a cross section of persons from politics, business and communities agreed on and voted into office from all parties in the lower house. No un-elected peers.
5. May be time for a proper written constitution

These are my ideas. I don’t often talk politics, but believe the time is ripe for change. Trouble is, how does one go about achieving this???

Bongo – have you had a punt on the Tory leadership? I’ve had a fiver on Stephen Crabb at 8-1. As thats just the kind of contrary result Tory leadership elections tend to throw up.

Its him or May. The one person who hasn’t got a cat in hells chance is Boris Johnson. I don’t think he knows this yet. Which is going to make it even funnier when he fails to make it into the final ballot 😀

1. First thing is that the first past the post system needs to be replaced by a proportional representative system so that everyone’s vote can have a value. regardless of who you vote for.

Sod that. The last thing we need is loons like UKIP and the greens getting real power through coalitions.

welshfarmer – can you run for PM please? Then we can all vote for you, and you can put all that in place

Cheers! 😀

Reality shows that no-one will go into a coalition with an extremist party. In Germany Netherlands and others with PR you will more likely see a Lab-Con coalition than see any of the parties prepared to govern with the extreme fringe parties. Plus, given that a vote for the extremists will count, and not just be a protest vote, many will actually think before giving their vote to them, especially if they think a vote for a party they better represents their general views has a chance of power.

Bongo – have you had a punt on the Tory leadership?

No. I got too depressed looking at the candidates, so just chucked a fiver on Wenger becoming next England manager. I’d rather chuck away a fiver on an angular French choker, than contemplate BoJo becoming next PM.

binners – Member

A reality check for Ernie and the rest of Momentum/SWP cult:

5 Live have just had the heads of five Tory constituancy associations. They were discussing the relative merits of the proposed Tory candidates, listing their relative strengths and weaknesses. They were then asked who they would like to see lead the Labour Party into the next election. They didn’t even have to think about it for a second. The replies were immediate and unequivocal.

1. Corbyn
2. Corbyn
3. Corbyn
4. Corbyn
Then
5. Corbyn – with the added caveat: “to lead them to their final defeat”
Posted 39 minutes ago # Report-Post

Should someone who claims that UKIP have done to Labour in the “Northern Heartlands” what the SNP has done to Labour in Scotland really be telling other people they need a reality check?

They were then asked who they would like to see lead the Labour Party into the next election. They didn’t even have to think about it for a second. The replies were immediate and unequivocal.

No shit Sherlock???

Did you honestly think there was the slightest possibility that the Tories might not be revelling in the turmoil caused by the PLP as they constantly brief the media against their own leader and then stage a coup against their own party?

Of course they want Corbyn as leader, because the Blairites will do far more damage to Labour as long as he is leader than they could ever do.

Although up until now they have failed for those attacks to damage Labour sufficiently enough to affect election results. Now the Blairites have decided to make the attack full-frontal and every career politician is backing them.

I can guarantee binners that if Corbyn remains leader you will continue your ridiculous rants about free range organic hermaphrodite middle-class lefties. How many votes do you reckon you will be picking up for Labour in the process? Not that I’m suggesting anyone listens to you of course.

Have a reality check fella while I carry on supporting those who don’t want their party to be in the control of blackmailers – because blackmail is exactly what it is.

I can guarantee binners that if Corbyn remains leader you will continue your ridiculous rants about free range organic hermaphrodite middle-class lefties. How many votes do you reckon you will be picking up for Labour in the process? Not that I’m suggesting anyone listens to you of course.

Well at least he can be warmed by the fact that you are listening to him though – Ernie, the unity candidate – are you Bojo in disguise? (At least that explains all the Maggie photos 😉 )

Right on Ernie!!!!

Well at least he can be warmed by the fact that you are listening to him though

There are certain people on here whose posts if they go beyond one paragraph I usually ignore, you’re one of them btw, so there’s always a chance I might read anyone’s post. I even occasionally read Chewwy’s posts.

I always try to read mefty’s posts in their entirety, no matter how long they are. What do you think that might mean?

You fancy him?

I even occasionally read Chewwy’s posts.

Now THAT’S commitment to keeping an open mind. 🙂

Right on Ernie!!!!

I am hugely relieved that you needed to resort to posting a funny picture binners.

I was terrified by the possibility that you might come back with a carefully constructed repudiation.

I don’t think theres anything I could possibly say that would deflect yourself and your comrades from the true path of delivering us all into the socialist utopia of the Glorious Leader. You simply neeed to rid the party of dissenting voices, then once your message is out there, all those voters in marginal seats, the UKIP leaning northerners, and in the rock solid Tory constituencies will see the error of their ways, converted as they surely will be by the pure socialist ethos of the messiah….

*Salutes the Red Flag*

I don’t think theres anything I could possibly say that would deflect yourself and your comrades from the true path of delivering us all into the socialist utopia of the Glorious Leader

When words are no better than silence, one should chose silence.

Will there be enforced silence for the non-believers once the revolution has taken place? Or re-education?

Steady binns, you’re overheating. Mrs Ming is making her pitch. Are you watching?