Why are you atheists so angry?

what do the believers think they fill their cars up with?

Unicorn piss – next question?

Believers of what?

Creationism

Now, you know not all Christians are creationists in the pure sense, don’t you?

No, it is the Null hypothesis.

Ok, so if I’d said athiesm is a conclusion based on the LACK if empirical evidence would that work?

Creationism

Right, ok.

So a relatively very small number of people then, rather than ‘believers’ in general?

I think the whole 12 pages in and no one has been that rude to anyone else is a commendable thing.

It’s clear that religion in general has been a major, possibly the major thing in the development of society. It’s a bit of a strange concept to me certainly, but I’m happy for folk to believe what they would like to. Some people ride Orange 5s, for Gods sake…

Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why ‘bad’ stuff happens. It is the devil’s purpose to destroy and separate God’s creation.

I have always thought that the Abrahamic religions consisted of two gods: the “good” one (Yahweh or whatever his name is) and the Devil. I don’t see many references to the devil in the bible. I reckon it is just dogma, control mechanism for the masses.

Nope Spin nice try…

I have always thought that the Abrahamic religions consisted of two gods: the “good” one (Yahweh or whatever his name is) and the Devil

Can’t speak for Judiasm or Islam, but Christianity has not traditionally referred to Satan/Devil as having divine status. Nowadays, there’s a variety of views within Christianity on how ‘Satan’ should be understood, ranging from those who believe there is a being of that name, to those who regard it as a personification of the reality of evil, or who discount the belief entirely.

I’m an atheist, I’m not angry but thanks for the sweeping generalization anyway 🙂

Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why ‘bad’ stuff happens. It is the devil’s purpose to destroy and separate God’s creation. We have the opportunity to enter God’s Kingdom through Jesus. When this occurs we see miracles and healings, people raised from the dead and lives transformed as God’s kingdom breaks through. However, the world is as yet not under the Kingdom of God and therefore it’s a tough place. The hope is that it won’t always be like this and that God wants everyone to be part of that Kingdom – hence the purpose of Jesus.

I know we are all bending over backwards not to offend anyone and that is nice to see. But stuff like this just gives me the creeps and as I remember is what made me an atheist in the first place.

I don’t want this kind of nonsense near my children.

So, you just believe that they’ve looked into and what they say is true?

a) I tend to research, to the best of my limited ability, anything before I take it as fact.

b) When my knowledge / intelligence runs out, I rely on peer review to validate “facts”. To wit, whenever someone thinks they’ve discovered something, a host of very very clever people will try to pick holes in it. (The originator welcomes this; compare and contrast religion)

I’m always intrigued with the lack of discussion of Satan in these types of debate.

‘s a good point. I thought they were mutually related.

I’m sure it assumes a certain belief in God to even entertain the debate.

Only if you’re looking for opinions which already fit your world view.

You asked.

I did, and I genuinely appreciate your candour.

I think the whole 12 pages in and no one has been that rude to anyone else is a commendable thing.

Prick.

(-:

Why? what is so offensive?

The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn’t subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?

I find that mildly offensive and I don’t even believe in him. 🙂

An omniscient omnipotent patriarchal entity that created the Universe and all of the variety of life contained within. What is the purpose? A test? To be worshiped? The whole concept sounds suspiciously human to me and with not a shred of evidence I’m not buying it.

Not angry though. I still marvel at the sheer improbibility of our exisitence, the real story – the one backed by evidence – of our origin is just so much more miraculous.

justatheory +1.

What kind of a loving god plays games with human lives anyway? What kind of religion HAS AN INSTRUMENT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS ITS MOST HOLY SYMBOL?

The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn’t subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?

I find that mildly offensive and I don’t even believe in him

I’d like to offer the argument that it’s not a particularly biblical view either; there’s ample evidence in there of the need to acknowledge ‘good’ wherever we find it, which is kind of the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan – his care for another human being in need is presented as exemplary, irrespective of his erroneous religious beliefs.

An omniscient omnipotent patriarchal entity that created the Universe and all of the variety of life contained within.

I think this is a good point to ask ourseves WWFS or What Would Feynman Say.

“It doesn’t seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”

The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn’t subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?

See, if you don’t believe in it, it has very little power to offend in my opinion. It’s excellent ammunition for those who don’t believe tho, I’ll give you that.

I thought that might set the pulses racing. It’s also not about offending or not offending anyone, I’m simply sharing a world view that’s been shared for centuries.

I’m really interested to know what it is that ‘put’s people off’ so much? Is it the notion of a devil? Hands up how many of you celebrated halloween?

I would have thought that seeing people healed and lives transformed would be a positive thing? Isn’t this the gist of what others are suggesting but via the MTFU process.

I still marvel at the sheer improbibility of our exisitence, the real story – the one backed by evidence – of our origin is just so much more miraculous.

This. And that we are learning more as time goes on. An exciting time to be alive!

Hmmm, it’s not. The symbol is that of Gods/Jesus’* love for us**. Do paraphrase “he loved us so much he sent his only son to die for us on the cross”.

*and I assume the holy spirit?
**them? Although if he did exist I suppose the rest would be included, who knows, depends which flavour of Christianity you prefer.

I would have thought that seeing people healed and lives transformed would be a positive thing? Isn’t this the gist of what others are suggesting but via the MTFU process

Sorry I don’t believe you on this. Double blind trials have been done on prayer and it was shown to be ineffective. Like homeopathy and all that stuff.

Religion doesn’t put me off so much a I would feel a right numpty having to hold things as true when I see no evidence for them. Organised religion of any type is a control system with heirarchies of priests etc. So that is right out for a start.

But I am a true skeptic. Show me evidence and I will change my mind.

Christopher Hitchens is dying but his magnificent Rolls Royce of a mind purrs on. This is the Greatest Living Englishman at his defiant best.

The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn’t subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?

That’s not at all what I’m saying! You have twisted/misinterpreted me. Apologies if it wasn’t clear or has caused offence.

We are God’s creation and loved and valued by him. That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die. My point was that there is more going on as regards spiritual realms than in my opinion we realise or recognise. This is not about judging people, clasifying them as evil and so please don’t mis-represent me on that point.

So a relatively very small number of people then, rather than ‘believers’ in general?

Yes just those few who believe what the bible says

We are God’s creation and loved and valued by him. That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die.

Thats the kind of parenting I think we can all do without. It’s 2011 people.

That is why he sent his Son Jesus to die.

Jorge Luis Borges makes an excellent case for Judas being the son of god in “Three Versions of Judas”

It is essentially based around the idea that “crucifixion’s a doddle”

I’m really interested to know what it is that ‘put’s people off’ so much?

1) I do not believe in gods at all. I don’t need to be “put off” I am arational person
2)The enormous damage done by religions. From the deaths from aids preventable by condoms tot eh stopping of stem cell research tot eh wars in the name of religion to the oppression of various groups

Please note I am differentiating between individuals an what they do and the collective organised religion. I have worked with religious people and have even suggested to people they went to a religious figure for help after bereavement when it was appropriate for them

Nowadays, there’s a variety of views within Christianity on how ‘Satan’ should be understood, ranging from those who believe there is a being of that name, to those who regard it as a personification of the reality of evil, or who discount the belief entirely.

Anything stopping you from applying that logic to god? Ie, he could be a “personification of the reality of good?”

Moreover, how can you cherry-pick to do that with one and not the other? If you redefine one, don’t you have to redefine the other too?

What kind of religion HAS AN INSTRUMENT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS ITS MOST HOLY SYMBOL?

You know, I always wondered. If it’s all true and Jesus made his second coming next week, how would he feel about seeing all his fans carrying an instrument of his torture and death around with them? If it were me, the absolute last thing I’d want to see is a load of bloody crucifixes everywhere.

which is kind of the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan – his care for another human being in need is presented as exemplary, irrespective of his erroneous religious beliefs.

Interesting example. The parable of the ‘good Samaritan’ is nothing to do with the kindness of strangers. It assumes bigotry on the part of the reader, it’s all about someone being good despite being from Samaria. A modern-day western variant might be “The Good Pakistani.” Still think it’s a good story?

We are God’s creation and loved and valued by him.

Taking the first part of that as true for a moment; how do you know the second? Seems to me that, at best, we’re tolerated by god rather than “loved and valued.”

GrahamS – Member
Why? what is so offensive?
The idea that me, my family, everyone I know, in fact everyone on Earth past or present, living or dead that doesn’t subscribe to your religion (out of the many thousands offered, including atheism) are basically evil agents under the thrall of the devil?

I find that mildly offensive and I don’t even believe in him.

GrahamS – you may (but probably may not) be interested to read this:

as it tries to argue the similarities between theist Christianity and non-theist Buddhism. When googling the link, I found a similar:

I have the first and might buy the second. Like you I struggle with the exclusive nature of religion (albeit from a different starting point)

Cougar – I am sure you understand the real symbolism of crucifixes!!

Oh yeah, I understand the symbolism. I just think that it’s not a great advert for a belief system.

The ultimate sacrifice – seems quite powerful!?!

Not really the ultimate though, is it when you know you’ll be back after the weekend!

Oh, of course it’s powerful, “he suffered and died for our sins”; depending how cynical you’re feeling, it’s either a mechanism for instilling gratitude and awe, or fear and guilt.

Typically, one does not start a world-dominating religion whose symbolism is kittens and buttercups.

it’s all true

Hallelujah – we have a believer! Step down to the front brother Cougar to receive a blessing!

Still think it’s a good story?

Yes – on the basis that it challenges the bigotry and assumptions of his listeners, it’s a terrific story. I find Martin Luther King’s use of it in his speech the night before he was murdered particularly powerful.

If it were me, the absolute last thing I’d want to see is a load of bloody crucifixes everywhere.

Aside from the reality that you’ll struggle to find many Christians carrying ‘bloody crucifixes’ everywhere, your point echoes that of an eminent German theologian; Jurgen Moltmann, who opens one of his most famous books The Crucified God with the line “The cross is not and cannot be loved”. It’s a brilliant book, although I couldn’t recommend it as a starting point for an exploration of Christian theology.

mcboo +1

Always a pleasure watching god and religion getting Hitchslapped.

Rolls-Royce indeed.

Not really the ultimate though, is it when you know you’ll be back after the weekend!

That is Borges point in Three Versions of Judas. Judas actually made the larger sacrifice i.e. eternal damnation where as Jesus just had a few hours on the cross then off to heaven. Therefore Judas was the true personification of God and his ultimate sacrifice.

It’s interesting to read Milton’s “Paradise Lost” (another proto-superhero/mythical monsters fantasy like the “bible”) from the perspective of skeptical atheism – Satan reads like the good guy…

And whilst were on the subject – do you believe that “Superman” is real? Why not? There’s loads of books about him and all the miracles he performed. With pictures and everything!!

Another +1 mcboo.

Hitchens – what a fantastic unflinching intellect. I saw the brilliant Sam Harris give a talk earlier in the year in Bristol but I fear I’ll never see Hitch in person.