Scotland Indyref 2

There’s a lot of gun jumping going on at the moment Ben – hence the thread 😉

{the answer was worse but let’s not worry about details this is #posttruthpolitics world after all]

I tend to agree with ben, but in the context of the question I was asking, worse is better 😉

How come? Scotland is a clear beneficiary of the rebate that would not be available to a new, independent state. Anyway, too many jumps and too many guns. The sweets are bad enough….

So some sort of federal EU status for Scotland and NI whilst still being part of UK

You have to sell that to the Spanish, tough to impossible I’d say.

SNP are simply being oportunistic, and fair play to them, using the disruption to push for a second once in a lifetime referendum. Well actually not a referendum just the framework to call one at a later date.

Terribly sorry thm,typed from the phone. To use your own weird metaphor,what you are scared of is that the whole of Scotland may be a sweetshop and you have your nose pressed against the window, but Boris and Nigel have taken your pocket money. I can’t find a link to Dugdale’s reply,what was the focus of it? Labour have to get away from the SNPBAD mantra that served them SO well at the election. If 62% of the population voted for remain;a higher % than voted to stay in the UK,then surely Labour need to take the chance to reboot and start to build support again. I think the reactions of both KD and RD will very much be dictated to them from across the border and will provide an interesting sub plot.

Terribly sorry thm,

No need, duckie, no need

To use your own weird metaphor,what you are scared of is that the whole of Scotland may be a sweetshop and you have your nose pressed against the window, but Boris and Nigel have taken your pocket money.

I think you misunderstood but never mind. Not a first. Pastilles?

then surely Labour need to take the chance to reboot and start to build support again. I think the reactions of both KD and RD will very much be dictated to them from across the border and will provide an interesting sub plot.

Well looks like they are making a clumsy start to that process. It will be interesting as you say.

Because I was looking at reasons why the EU might want to make extra effort for Scotland to retain membership. Though the figures are small enough compared to out net £9bn contribution (I think that’s about right going on the figures I’ve seen bandied about) to be negligible.

Well at least we might be able to find a Spanish government. The UK government seems to have packed its bags for the summer holidays now. See you in September

Meanwhile the Scottish government is talking directly to the EU and other governments, and they’re talking back to us. Like independent countries do. That’s a pretty significant moment I think.

Aracer – a thought on economies, and in reading this remember I’m an engineer.

Cameron said ideally Scotland remains in both unions. That’s a curious statement – unless of course he means the whole UK remains in the EU, but he hasn’t been pushing hard on that. So what might it mean? Scotland becoming some sort of free-trade / EU zone within the UK? Perhaps.
Let’s assume that’s the case (it may not be). If it is the. Suddenly Edinburgh not London is the place to base your bank (and better than Frankfurt or Paris or Dublin too). It would lose English taxation (income) in favour of Scots taxation, but defend UK taxation. The English are happy (well just over half of them) because they get to leave the EU. The EU is happy because they get to keep the substance of the UK economy. And the UK is maintained as a single country.

But he can’t do it because Westminster is persona non grata in Brussels etc. However poor wee Nicola, with a sympathy vote and following wind just might.

Perhaps. It wouldn’t be the craziest thing this week.

Ooh, “I’m an engineer”. Oh hang on, so am I, so I’m probably mostly talking bollocks about politics.

It’s certainly not a bad plan for the UK, though I’m struggling to see exactly how it would work – sure there are existing “dependencies” of EU countries outside the EU (we have the Channel Isles and IoM) but they’re all economically much smaller than the parent country.

I’m still wondering whether the comment is a hint at a bigger move, one which may be happening in private but the political situation isn’t yet right to announce in public. I note that one of the Dutch MEPs speaking today also “slipped” when she said “if the UK chooses to leave the EU”.

No idea how it works, but in engineering terms I’d suggest talking fast, smiling, occasionally glowering, and hoping for a following wind.

Politically, legally, and economically – not a clue.

“If the UK chooses to leave” – you mean stare into the abyss for a bit, enjoy the view, ring MI5, mutter something about a troublesome priest and then ring Angela and suggest the time is not right to leave?

Possible.

Particularly in a blinking parliamentary democracy who’ve just done a huge opinion poll.

One thing is for certain – it would be bloody interesting to be a fly in the wall in the corridors of Brussels. In between the anger/bravado/showboating etc there will be frantic meetings going on to find a solution. At the moment, we are all faced with a lose:lose so there is not much downside. And at the centre is Frau Compromse the arch pragmatist.

Showboating – I’m on a phone and I couldn’t work out why they were snowboarding

Yes I’m hoping Angela finds a way. Actually the women generally are coming out of this better than the men aren’t t they – or is that sexist?

Perhaps the football chairman approach to negotiation might work ie completely deny any knowledge of or interest in any deal until it happens then tell everyone how delighted you are

Don’t the Germans win more often at football – and the Scots lose (except during the 80s when we was brilliant)

Of course we lose at wendyball. No self respecting Scotsman would play that game when shinty or rugby is available. 🙂

I’m probably mostly talking bollocks about politics.

You have a long long way to got to reach the bollocks of the politics debates on this site

It seems that Dugdale’s target was the Tories, Davidson abstained. Ruth with an eye on the new boss there?

duckman – Member
It seems that Dugdale’s target was the Tories, Davidson abstained. Ruth with an eye on the new boss there?

Maybe Labour have discovered every time they bleat SNPbaaaaad! a new SNP voter is born. 🙂

Davidson abstaining was a clever mood IMO. This was a no win either way for the Tories.

Davidson wants to be able to go “Boris who? Oh yeah! Loud bloke with blonde hair? Aye, met him once at a party, don’t really know him though…”

I’ve still not got used to Ruth sitting on that side of the chamber.

I’ve been wondering if federalisation is the silver bullet in this scenario that lets everyone walk out happy (ish).

Equal devolution for each nation.
Free in/out decision.
More powers for those that want them whilst possibility of shutting down question of independence.
Whoever is in charge gets those who want to out the EU whilst keeping UK together.

Thinking out loud here mostly, the notion of everyone working together to reach a reasonable compromise in these times is frankly laughable.

You were moving in that direction, were you not?

Joining the Euro as a (relatively small) independent state, seems to be a backward steps in terms of delivering the greater independence and prosperity that you crave.

Sturgeon has done some sensible things recently but missing the elephant in the room is ultimately an act of folly. Is tartan narcissm the same as the Bojo and Corbyn versions I wonder?

Well at least we might be able to find a Spanish government.

Good luck on that one. We’ve just had the second set of elections after the deadlock following the previous (pre-Christmas!) elections, and it’s still a tie…

I’ve been wondering if federalisation is the silver bullet in this scenario that lets everyone walk out happy (ish).

The federal systems I’ve heard of basically reserve some powers to the central government, with any non-reserved powers going to the states. This is highly unlikey to be compatible with differential EU membership – for better or for worse the EU touches on basically all elements of government, from social services (health care abroad, for example), to the obvious economic items, defense…

squirrelking – Member
I’ve been wondering if federalisation is the silver bullet in this scenario that lets everyone walk out happy…(ish).

Equal devolution for each nation…

That used to be my preferred option.

However, in the Treaty of Union it was supposed to be between equals. It simply hasn’t worked. There is no respect for Scotland in the Westminster chamber.

It’s a poisoned relationship. Separation from England is the only solution.

It’s a poisoned relationship. Separation from England is the only solution.

Do the Welsh and N Irish not play a role epic?

Or was I right about hatred of the English alone 😉 ?

However, in the Treaty of Union it was supposed to be between equals. It simply hasn’t worked. There is no respect for Scotland in the Westminster chamber.

No, it was always meant to be proportionate, thats why in clause XXII of the Act of union, Scotland was allocated 45 seats in the house of commons.

You don’t seem to get it do you, that the Act of union was not a federal agreement – it was an almost complete political, fiscal, trade and taxation union.

In fact, its almost exactly what people have been fighting to stop the EU becoming.

teamhurtmore – Member
‘It’s a poisoned relationship. Separation from England is the only solution.’
Do the Welsh and N Irish not play a role epic?

Or was I right about hatred of the English alone ?

It’s about democracy. The English MPs outnumber the Scots by a huge margin, as they do the Welsh and NI.

It’s that imbalance that makes the Union unworkable for Scotland. Democracy works best when there’s a balance between opposing forces.

If I have hatred, it’s certainly not for the English*. I loath a government system with an unelected upper House, and the corrupt Establishment that pulls the puppet strings. It is not democracy – I’m pretty sure I remember Enoch Powell saying that too.

I feel sorry for the English because once we’re gone they’ll have no party of real opposition to the whole apparatus of the Westminster elite – unless JC can do a JC with the Labour Party, but I suspect the lions have to be fed first.

I’m also sure the Welsh and the Irish are capable of managing their own affairs without my assistance. 🙂

*Oh, I did support Iceland though. But then that’s because they’re kin – there’s more common blood between Hebrideans and Icelanders than English.

ninfan – Member
…You don’t seem to get it do you, that the Act of union was not a federal agreement – it was an almost complete political, fiscal, trade and taxation union.

We didn’t get it then, and we don’t want it now. It was opposed by an estimated 99% of Scots according to the English spies. The Treaty was signed under duress of an English army on our borders, and with the use of bribery of the parcel of rogues called the Scottish aristocracy. Good old-fashioned racism came into it too, I think it was called the Aliens Act. Nothing much changes.

It was opposed by an estimated 99% of Scots according to the English spies.

Yeah, but we sorted them out a few years later

Not a bad effort epic – half way out of the hole anyway 🙂

Imagine if and Englishman confused UK or GB with England or our wendy players were seen celebrating at the Welsh loss!!

The Treaty was signed under duress of an English army on our borders, and with the use of bribery of the parcel of rogues called the Scottish aristocracy. Good old-fashioned racism came into it too, I think it was called the Aliens Act. Nothing much changes.

Nothing to do with Scotland being broke and England bailing it out, then?

Nothing to do with Scotland being broke and England bailing it out, then?

Well, if we’re going to go that far back, how about the Darien scheme being deliberately sabotaged by the king – who was our king too of course.

Still, we’re not bitter 😉

I’ve got an original book about the Darien scheme from 1699, by the way – it’s fascinating.

Well, if we’re going to go that far back, how about the Darien scheme being deliberately sabotaged by the king – who was our king too of course.

Still, we’re not bitter

I’ve got an original book about the Darien scheme from 1699, by the way – it’s fascinating.

I was only teasing…but I do think the notion of the union being a quasi-invasion is a little wide of the mark.

As it goes, I do think Scotland should have another referendum – the EU exit is pretty obviously a material change since last time, and in fact was used as part of the “better together” scaremongering tactics, wasn’t it?

Ransos the possibility of an Brexit was discussed last time, you had two years to go through it all.

France (Basque) and Spain (Basque and Catalonia) have confirmed publically they are not in favour of discussions with Scotland – its a politcal nightmare for them to do so. Vested European interests. Whilst they may be happy to whoop and cheer a fellow MEP sucking up to them (partly in French) hard nosed vested interest is a powerful foe

Spanish premier Mariano Rajoy said he “believes everyone is extremely against it” and that “if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”.
President Francois Hollande of France insisted the EU would make no advance deal with Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon said Mr Rajoy’s comments were not surprising.

At least NS is acknowledging what many of us have been saying, there will be significant resistance to the Scots joining as an newly independent nation

BBC linky

bencooper – Member
Well, if we’re going to go that far back, how about the Darien scheme being deliberately sabotaged by the king – who was our king too of course…

And a right bastard he was too. This is what he did to my ancestors in the Isle of Lewis.

He decided we should be removed to make way for some of his Lowland mates in a company called The Fife Adventurers, led by the Duke of Lennox, one of his “favourites”.

They were to bring civilisation and religion to the MacLeods, who had “given themselves over to all kinds of barbarity and inhumanity” and were “void of any knowledge of God or his religion.” ie we didn’t submit.

Just to make sure that the Adventurers would not lack the means for their mission, the Act authorised them to resort to “slaughter, mutilation, fire-raising or other inconveniences”.

Three expeditions were mounted over several years and repelled with suitable slaughter, mutilation, fire-raising or other inconveniences by us.

In the end he succeeded by using the divide and rule principle, and got another highland clan to do the job, only that was with much less slaughter.

Not many Jacobites in our lot… 🙂

Ah, thats right – I forgot Darien was all an English conspiracy, what with our hordes of trained mosquitos and everything

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/ship-of-fools-sank-darien-scheme-1-1415836

Ransos the possibility of an Brexit was discussed last time, you had two years to go through it all

No it wasn’t. It absolutely was not. There’s been some attempts at revising history to make people think that the prospect of an EU referendum was on the table during Indyref, but it was categorically denied by all on the No side. We were told that voting No meant our EU membership was safe, full stop.

In fact I brought this very issue up on the referendum night TV show, where I said that my big worry was that the Tories would get back in* and call an EU referendum, possibly taking us out of the EU. Margaret Curran (remember her?) smirked and said that would never happen.

*and remember we were told that there was no way the Tories would get into power again – it’d be Labiur or a coalition again.