Scotland Indyref 2

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  • Scotland Indyref 2
  • km79
    Member

    If Scotland is a region then what is England?

    Another region? [/quote]

    Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

    donald
    Member

    I want to be Scottish, I want to be British, I want to be European. That’s why I voted No in the the Independence Referendum.

    It now appears that I can only have two out of three.

    The game has changed.

    I am still Scottish. If offered the choice between being British and being European I will reconsider my options. In a year’s time I will have had time to consider all the arguments rationally. Today I’m thinking with my heart and would vote for Independence in Europe.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    thv3 wrote:

    The link to the United Nations, includes nations, not countries

    Ah, we’re into semantics then. The EU is a union of member states – note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

    History.

    I really don’t know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    If I was Scottish it would be a no-brainer, stay in the EU. You’d probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt…

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

    Those areas are actually regions, Scotland is not.

    Its like a Scot referring to England as “Down South”, you might know what they mean, but it doesn’t turn the whole of England into a region.

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Ah, we’re into semantics then. The EU is a union of member states – note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

    Except, as per the link above; ( http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm )
    Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    aracer – Member
    seosamh77 Β» well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.
    Well no, that’s one of the big problems! See how the financial markets reacted to a potential IS last time, and I don’t think an independence referendum is going to increase the certainty…

    fear, that works! πŸ˜†

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    thv3 wrote:

    Except, as per the link above; ( http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm )
    Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

    Well in that context they don’t recognise you as a country, as already pointed out in the post where the link was given

    HTH

    DrJ
    Member

    You’d probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt…

    What is a “role”? Is it a bit like a job?

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Well in that context they don’t recognise you as a country

    HTH

    Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

    United Kingdom – Wiki

    Worth a read, including the list of four countries which make up the UK……

    km79
    Member

    I really don’t know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?

    No it’s a political union of existing countries forming a state.

    poah
    Member

    I don’t get why there is such hate for leaving the EU.

    donald
    Member

    If Nichola has any sense (and she does) she’ll be working hard on getting favourable comments from prominent European figures on how an independent Scotland would be welcome to join (or preferably remain) in the EU.

    The more certainty the Scottish electorate have about likely terms and conditions of membership the better her chances of winning a vote.

    The best bet would be a statement that Scotland would remain a member under current conditions. That’s unlikely to happen though.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    thv3 wrote:

    Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

    Nothing to do with me, let’s rewind:

    thv3 wrote:

    a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain

    Scotland isn’t a “country in the EU” in the way that is implied by that, as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

    Premier Icon thv3
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    km79 wrote:

    I really don’t know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?
    No it’s a political union of existing countries forming a state.

    Exactly!

    donald
    Member

    As for border controls, the Schengen zone includes non-EU members Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein. There are no permanent border controls between those countries and their EU neighbours, although there may be random customs checks.

    It would be a superb irony if the EU insisted that rUK sign up to Shengen if they want to remain in the trading zone. They could easily do that but rUK would be unwilling to sign up to it under a Tory government.

    Failing that two countries can reach their own agreement not to have border controls. That’s the current arrangement between the UK and Ireland. There’s no reason why such an agreement couldn’t be reached between Scotland and rUK.

    Failing that the rUK can install their own controls at the border if they like.

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Scotland isn’t a “country in the EU” in the way that is implied by that

    1. Scotland is a country.
    2. Scotland is part of the UK.
    3. UK is currently part of the EU.

    Therefore Scotland is currently in the EU, although not represented as a separate member state, instead it is represented by the UK the same as England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

    According to who? Where?

    donald
    Member

    thv3 Β» Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

    Nothing to do with me, let’s rewind:

    thv3 Β» a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain

    Scotland isn’t a “country in the EU” in the way that is implied by that, as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

    Can you just stop this silly semantic arguing. The rules can be changed with the stroke of a pen if the EU feels like it. That’s what Nichola will be working for behind the scenes.

    5thElefant
    Member

    It would be a superb irony if the EU insisted that rUK sign up to Shengen if they want to remain in the trading zone. They could easily do that but rUK would be unwilling to sign up to it under a Tory government.

    Of course they will and we’ll sign up. The tory government campaigned for in. Boris is a complete europhile.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    donald wrote:

    Can you just stop this silly semantic arguing. The rules can be changed with the stroke of a pen if the EU feels like it.

    Regarding Scotland being a member of the EU as a country in its own right (and therefore an entity the EU can negotiate with)? I think that would require a bit more than the stroke of a pen, no matter how cynical you might be about the power wielded by unelected beurocrats

    Junkyard
    Member

    God no Shudders

    #refereduum threads can never die

    Bet I am over the fear by page 10 πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    Can plebs like us petition the EU online like we can for the UK parliament? I.e. petition.parliament.uk

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Of course they will and we’ll sign up. The tory government campaigned for in. Boris is a complete europhile.

    Yep, the only difference Voting Out will achieve is a recession, a change of PM and loss of our rebate. Most likely scenario is we pay more to stay in, lose 73 MEPs, keep immigration unchanged and have to follow all the same EU laws (only now have to say over them having lost our MEPs).

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Aracer, Donald – I think the rules are probably clear but irrelevant. Article 50 withdrawal is new territory and if one “region” was breaking away at the same time that would be equally new territory. If they wanted Scotland in, they would decide that in this special case the rules allow it, and if they didn’t strangely enough they wouldn’t. An opinion would be developed accordingly.
    Now they might want Holyrood just to annoy Westminster. Or Spain might not want to set a precedent – but ways might be found around that.

    Who knows? But Nicola is off to find out.

    ninfan
    Member

    Scottish Government: “Can we have another referendum?”

    UK Government: “No, **** off, you’ve already had one”

    End of thread.

    philxx1975
    Member

    Scottish Government: “Can we have another referendum?”

    UK Government: “No, **** off, you’ve already had one”

    End of thread.

    cue music as scottish opportunist anti democratic woman, paints face blue and changes her name to william wallace, muttering you will never take our freedom.

    I’m pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    ninfan – Member
    Scottish Government: “Can we have another referendum?”

    UK Government: “No, **** off, you’ve already had one”

    End of thread.good luck with that.

    ninfan
    Member

    I’m pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result

    They did vote – and decided to stay in the UK

    you were even warned before the vote – by their own leaders – that it was a once in a generation, perhaps even once in a lifetime, opportunity – that quote alone, by both Salmond and Sturgeon, undermines any demand for another one, the UK government can rightfully dismiss any calls to revisit the issue with that answer.

    You lost, get over it.

    philxx1975
    Member

    You lost, get over it.

    Not sure if you saw the news, but I’m not exactly sure Ms Sturgeon is now seeing it that way.

    Premier Icon footflaps
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    You lost, get over it.

    It’s far from over, you won’t even know what you’ve won for at least 2 years, maybe up to 10.

    I think Scotland will be long gone by then.

    Premier Icon YoKaiser
    Subscriber

    Why wouldn’t Boris and the Tories be up for casting Scotland adrift?

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    YoKaiser – Member
    Why wouldn’t Boris and the Tories be up for casting Scotland adrift?

    Never underestimate Boris, the ultimate opportunist with a classical scholar’s perspective. πŸ™‚

    He may very well see the advantages of an independent Scotland in the EU and having an open border with England. He’s a man who like to have his cake and eat it.

    An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better. Whether being out of the EU is another matter, because I’m not sure the Commonwealth is all that keen to adopt its previous role.

    mikey74
    Member

    An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better.

    How do you know?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better.

    Surely you just want in Independent London / bits of the SE (all the pro EU zones) and the rest of the country can sort itself out and hang a big “no blacks, no irish, no dogs”sign on the front door πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    ninfan – Member
    I’m pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result
    They did vote – and decided to stay in the UK

    you were even warned before the vote – by their own leaders – that it was a once in a generation, perhaps even once in a lifetime, opportunity – that quote alone, by both Salmond and Sturgeon, undermines any demand for another one, the UK government can rightfully dismiss any calls to revisit the issue with that answer.

    You lost, get over it.good luck with that.

    philxx1975
    Member

    Surely you just want in Independent London

    Looks like someone figured it out

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    igm wrote:

    Aracer, Donald – I think the rules are probably clear but irrelevant. Article 50 withdrawal is new territory and if one “region” was breaking away at the same time that would be equally new territory…

    At which point you come back to the timescale thing I mentioned above. It doesn’t appear to be something the EU is particularly thinking about given they’re encouraging us to start the 2 year clock ticking – meanwhile there isn’t even a proposal for another referendum on the table. I’m not quite sure what the timescale was last time from them deciding to have one, but IIRC there was going to be 18 months from the referendum to independence.

    Of course it also raises interesting questions if Scotland can effectively ignore the referendum result which the EU leaders appear to consider to be binding on the rest of us.

    It seems lots of people in Scotland want another referendum – I agree, it’s just that I’d like a vote too, and the question I want asking again has nothing to do with the Union between England and Scotland.

    ninfan
    Member

    It seems lots of people in Scotland want another referendum

    I can quite believe it – about 45% of them πŸ˜†

    T1000
    Member

    I see no problem with Scotland having a 2nd go at the Indy Referundum

    As long as everyone gets a 2nd go at in/out

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