Scotland Indyref 2

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  • Scotland Indyref 2
  • poah
    Member

    bloody stupid – I voted yes 2 years ago but I’d vote no now. She can’t believe in democracy like a lot of other remain voters. The UK voted, the vote ratio in scotland is irrelavent. She needs to get off this stupid vector and get back to running the country properly.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Currency will be an issue – though many thought hanging on to the pound was a mistake anyway.

    Borders will be another. An EU Scotland and isolated Englandandwales will require some border control. That will make it particularly difficult for folk near the border that live/work on opposite sides.

    And the “where is our largest market” argument favoured by Remain will also apply.

    So – not very persuasive when those taken into account. However, Denmark shows that states made up of individual nation regions can be both in and out of the EU. Some compromise of that sort might be possible.

    Premier Icon dannybgoode
    Subscriber

    It’s a tough one. Sturgeon is smart, very smart but not two years ago Scotland committed (by a much greater margin than the EU referendum) to remain part of and be bound to the UK.

    The UK (partly due to low turnout in Scotland) has voted to leave. I didn’t vote to leave, does that mean I can stay an EU citizen-no. I am bound by the result and Scotland should be too. I

    How Sturgeon will play it though remains to be seen.

    However, I can see the scenario where Scotland calling for a second referendum coupled with negotiations going badly on the actual terms of Brexit people having a strong call for a second EU referendum using a similar argument to the Scots-this isn’t what we voted for…

    bencooper
    Member

    Without rerunning the arguments of last time, but:

    Currency: We do need a better answer on this, we should just lay out the options instead of saying that the first option is definitely the one that’ll happen.

    Borders: This’ll be difficult, but it’s a problem that’ll have to be solved between NI and Ireland as well. Other countries manage to have land borders, perhaps the US/Canada border would be a good model, though that would need some kind of diplomatic agreement.

    bencooper
    Member

    not two years ago Scotland committed (by a much greater margin than the EU referendum)

    Not in Scotland, though. In Scotland (which is what matters for the vote here, not UK-wide), the No vote was 55% and the Remain vote was 62%.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Danny Bower wrote:

    The UK (partly due to low turnout in Scotland) has voted to leave.

    Ah yes – it’s the fault of the Scots.

    bencooper
    Member

    Ah yes – it’s the fault of the Scots.

    Yup, I’ve heard that several times. In reality, even if turnout in Scotland had been 150%, Leave would still have won.

    poah
    Member

    The UK (partly due to low turnout in Scotland) has voted to leave. I didn’t vote to leave, does that mean I can stay an EU citizen-no. I am bound by the result and Scotland should be too.

    That kind of sensible talk has no place in STW lol

    I don’t get why people are demonstrating and getting upset over this. The people of the UK voted in a democratic way and one group lost, one group won. Why can’t people just accept the result and get on with their life’s, they can’t do anything to change the outcome. Some people’s behaviour is pretty pathetic.

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Subscriber

    Currency issue is the only hurdle now.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    poah wrote:

    Why can’t people just accept the result and get on with their life’s, they can’t do anything to change the outcome.

    Except they can

    5thElefant
    Member

    Currency issue is the only hurdle now.

    Pretty irrelevant if you don’t have enough of it. Oil is the main issue.

    bencooper
    Member

    The people of the UK voted in a democratic way and one group lost, one group won.

    The basis of this argument is that you think the UK is one country. A lot of people in Scotland, perhaps a majority, disagree with you.

    Imagine if a EU-wide referendum had been held on something. Would you have been as keen to observe the majority verdict then?

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Oil is the main issue.

    Could they offset that by benefiting from the Brexodus of businesses that want to stay in the EU?

    Certainly it was discussed at my institute if Scotland still has access to EU science funding

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    I don’t get why people are demonstrating and getting upset over this. The people of the UK voted in a democratic way and one group lost, one group won. Why can’t people just accept the result and get on with their life’s, they can’t do anything to change the outcome. Some people’s behaviour is pretty pathetic.

    only 72% voted, so about 37% of the electorate chose to leave the EU. Partly this mess is for not drawing up proper rules like 50% of the possible vote or a minimum turn out or compulsory voting for something so important. But yes it is over and not it’s time to work out what to do next, legitimately there are some serious concerns from Scotland and NI. It would be foolish for both not to consider all options.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    My current thoughts, if Nicola Sturgeon can negotiate Scotland remaining in the EU under the same terms as currently in place, e.g. no euro, same vetos, similar funding, then the case for independence is strong. Chances of her getting this? Near zero. Brussels has bigger fish to fry and I think she will be overlooked.

    As for Scotland becoming independent then rejoining the EU, I don’t think this option would be favourable. We’d have to adopt the euro, have no vetos, and be a long way down the pecking order.

    The Brussels leadership (Juncker) is now showing it’s true colours and it’s ugly.

    Edit: I voted to remain BTW, but remain in the EU as it was. From Friday morning that EU ceased to exist and I’m don’t like what I see in it’s place or what I believe it will become.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Could they offset that by benefiting from the Brexodus of businesses that want to stay in the EU?

    Sure. That’s obviously a risky strategy compared to x$ a barrel balances the books.

    I’d relocate to Scotland if the tax regime was favourable. I suspect Boris may have a similar strategy in mind though.

    Premier Icon YoKaiser
    Subscriber

    Oil is the main issue

    Wanting independence on the back of oil is extremely short sighted. It won’t last even in my lifetime nor will the need for it.

    And as for currency I’d take the Euro.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    The Brussels leadership (Juncker) is now showing it’s true colours and it’s ugly.

    For that reason maybe he’d welcome them with open arms to really stick the boot into the English

    It would be great PR to get another star back on the flag quickly!

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    kimbers wrote:

    Oil is the main issue.

    Could they offset that by benefiting from the Brexodus of businesses that want to stay in the EU? [/quote]IIRC (sorry I don’t have figures and links) Scotlands GDP was something like 90% of the UK GDP even without oil.

    If the UKs economy tanks (as many expect) then the positions could easily be reversed. Add to that things like company relocation (financial services would be an easy one) and an iScotland economy could look a lot brighter even without oil

    5thElefant
    Member

    Wanting independence on the back of oil is extremely short sighted.

    True. But in the short term it would make independence viable. Starting broke with the hope of turning it around doesn’t seem very desirable.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    5thElefant wrote:

    Starting broke with the hope of turning it around doesn’t seem very desirable.

    But if you’re on a downwards trajectory as part of the UK, putting the brakes on sooner rather than later might be a good idea.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    If the UKs economy tanks (as many expect) then the positions could easily be reversed. Add to that things like company relocation (financial services would be an easy one) and an iScotland economy could look a lot brighter even without oil

    This is something I’d thought of too. But it would rely on Scotland never leaving the EU, a deal I don’t think could be cut. I think Scotland would have to leave the UK first, then rejoin the EU… and there are fair few other countries in that queue.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    dmorts wrote:

    This is something I’d thought of too. But it would rely on Scotland never leaving the EU, a deal I don’t think could be cut.

    Dunno. It would depend on the EU.

    I think Scotland would have to leave the UK first, then rejoin the EU… and there are fair few other countries in that queue.

    It’s not a first-in first-out sort of a queue.

    I don’t think it would be a shoo-in, but political expediency might make some improbable things possible.

    5thElefant
    Member

    But if you’re on a downwards trajectory as part of the UK, putting the brakes on sooner rather than later might be a good idea.

    Lots of ifs in that, but they could probably sell it. You’d have to be a real optimist to want to be in charge of that.

    Does Sturgeon have a Boris sized ego?

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    Regardless and come indy ref 2, it’s clear that the arguments and cases are going to have to be clear cut on both sides. Half truths, finger in the air type arguments are not going to wash. It needs to be clear what you’re voting for…… that might be wishful thinking!

    Premier Icon kcal
    Subscriber

    You say, @poah, that you voted yes in indyref0 and would now vote No. Within my circle of discussion friends there are a good handful that would go the other way, now, to remain in the EU. I was undecided before, but voted – suspect I would much more tempted to vote yes if time came.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    dmorts wrote:

    Regardless and come indy ref 2, it’s clear that the arguments and cases are going to have to be clear cut on both sides. Half truths, finger in the air type arguments are not going to wash. It needs to be clear what you’re voting for…… that might be wishful thinking!

    But haven’t we been discussing (on the Brexit thread) how there are no absolute certainties? Either choice is predicated on lots of assumptions and what-ifs – e.g. if you just voted to Leave then you did so not knowing how any treaty negotiations would work out.

    slowoldgit
    Member

    The Brussels leadership (Juncker) is now showing its true colours and it’s ugly

    I’d guess the MDs of BMW, Merc, VAG, Bosch, Miele, and maybe a few others have been on the phone to him already.

    I was a no voter who voted remain , i was gutted yesterday and if you had put a ballet paper in front of me yesterday i would of voted yes in a heartbeat . But the more i think it appears to me that answering the questions about scottish independence became more complicated not more simple . Currency , borders , oil , the fact that the uk is the biggest trading partner not the eu all need clear robust answers .
    Its also interesting how Nicola’s language has been less certain than Salmonds

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    The Brussels leadership (Juncker) is now showing it’s true colours and it’s ugly.

    Oh FFS the UK made its choice and idiots are still trying to blame the EU for the fallout, did you really not realise the EU would act in the best interests of an EU without the UK. The UK told the EU to **** off and you still expect it to come and cuddle and give you a peck on the cheek.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    It’s not a first-in first-out sort of a queue.

    It may not be, but why would an out-of-the-EU independent Scotland be ahead of say, Macedonia or Turkey?

    Also all states have to agree, how would Spain feel about this, with reference to Catalonia? Scotland remaining, or Scotland leaving and rejoining may set a precedence Spain don’t want to set.

    falkirk-mark
    Member

    I think talk of a referendum is a bit premature. Ok most of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU however now by a majority (English or otherwise) we are out (that’s democracy). Since we now find ourselves out would it not be a good thing to take stock and see where we are (it may be that being out the EU is not all that bad). So leave it 5 years or so to see how things pan out. But now we have wee Jimmy Krankie pushing her own personal agenda without to my mind the people of Scotlands interest at heart. Also if we split from the UK I believe the Spanish government would object to us joining (the EU) as they do not want the Catalans doing the same as us so it would be doubtful that we would get in anyway.

    Premier Icon YoKaiser
    Subscriber

    I’m asking here not stating but is Scotland not recognised by the EU as a nation and catalonia is not? Also with Scotland already being part of the EU would that not be easier to transition. Principally the Scottish government is asking to remain as per the wishes of the people.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    I suppose it’s inevitable, now.

    16 year olds get to vote in this one, and as this will all be about EU membership it will be a big boost.

    Currency will be an issue, can they make it work without oil money?

    I imagine Sturgeon will be looking at Nissan and all those companies South of the border who were very happy being in the EU and rubbing her hands

    falkirk-mark
    Member

    Dunno Kaiser that is the problem everything is up in the air at the moment and no-one seems to have any answers.I suppose if we could remain in I would be up for that but if it meant going out with no certainty of what was ahead I would be against that.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    Oh FFS the UK made its choice and idiots are still trying to blame the EU for the fallout, did you really not realise the EU would act in the best interests of an EU without the UK. The UK told the EU to **** off and you still expect it to come and cuddle and give you a peck on the cheek.

    To expand on that, in or out of the EU it would appear you’re treated the same. DC’s renegotiation attempt is evidence of that. I’m only seeing the whole picture now.

    Calling someone an idiot, directly or indirectly is less than helpful

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    But haven’t we been discussing (on the Brexit thread) how there are no absolute certainties? Either choice is predicated on lots of assumptions and what-ifs – e.g. if you just voted to Leave then you did so not knowing how any treaty negotiations would work out.

    I was thinking along the lines of Sturgeon could go to Brussels and strike a deal (or not) then then what’s on offer would be clearer. They can be definite on the route, either Scotland remain, or leave and rejoin. Those routes are very different with different consequences

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    answering the questions about scottish independence became more complicated

    This is a worry of mine too, everyone has a limit on their capacity for interpreting complexity, some lower that others. Simplifying the arguments may be demanded by voters but may not be possible. That’s where the half truths and obfuscation could creep in

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    dmorts wrote:

    But haven’t we been discussing (on the Brexit thread) how there are no absolute certainties? Either choice is predicated on lots of assumptions and what-ifs – e.g. if you just voted to Leave then you did so not knowing how any treaty negotiations would work out.

    I was thinking along the lines of Sturgeon could go to Brussels and strike a deal (or not) then then what’s on offer would be clearer. They can be definite on the route, either Scotland remain, or leave and rejoin. Those routes are very different with different consequences
    [/quote]True. Having a definite statement on the Scotland/EU relationship would be a positive one or the other. Previously, the EU said they couldn’t speak to the Scottish Govt but, you know, politics….

    deviant
    Member

    Please God let the Scots go, they can have their independence, Westminster can stop subsidizing the country and Scotland can become Europe’s problem instead.
    This is an excellent week!

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