Scotland Indyref 2

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  • Scotland Indyref 2
  • yacoby
    Member

    Scotland staying in the EU? Sounds a plan. That way I can still buy cheap bike stuff from Germany.

    bencooper
    Member

    Please God let the Scots go, they can have their independence, Westminster can stop subsidizing the country and Scotland can become Europe’s problem instead.

    Yup, that’d be great – then you can find out it’s us that’s been subsidising you not the other way around. And good luck finding somewhere for the nuclear submarines you can no longer afford 😉

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    Previously, the EU said they couldn’t speak to the Scottish Govt

    That might not change, where’s the motivation for a change from an EU/Brussels point of view?

    bencooper
    Member

    That might not change, where’s the motivation for a change from an EU/Brussels point of view?

    The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    I think it’s pretty sensible trying to stay in the EU and I hope they succeed.

    Just because we’ve shot ourselves in both feet, doesn’t mean they have to.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.

    Yes, but they be weighing it up against the precedence set by negotiation with a regional government.

    Edit: That said I should look into the Denmark thing mentioned before, was this Iceland? Or Greenland?

    Edit2: Greenland https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/213189/greenland-could-give-hope-to-scotland-on-independent-eu-membership/

    thebees
    Member

    I’m sure the E.U. would love to have Scotland. They love a lame duck.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    sturgeon on bbc now.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    basically saying, seeking to sta in the eu, will be having discussion with eu members, will be putting together a cross party advisory panel. and ensuring eu nationals they are welcome.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    Incredible amount of antiScottish racism here.

    It will be good when we are no longer shackled to a country with that attitude towards us.

    MrSmith
    Member

    I would imagine it’s a given now that the UK situation has changed and I wish Scotland the best of luck. What’s the point with crowing jingoism? It would be a step into the unknown just like brexit will be for us in England.
    Those kind of sentiments are just as moronic as those from some of the brexit camp.

    Edit: racism from both sides of the border in this thread already, can’t you just be happy that each country is allowed to make a choice on its future.

    bencooper
    Member

    Incredible amount of antiScottish racism here.

    It’s just banter, innit.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    It’s just banter, innit.

    Bitterness / resentment, that some parts of he UK might escape the act of mass stupidity we’ve just committed.

    bencooper
    Member

    There’s another factor that just occurred to me: EU nationals living in the UK were not allowed to vote in the EU referendum. They were allowed to vote in the first Scottish independence referendum, so will be in the second.

    That’s 150,000 people now very likely to vote Yes.

    Additionally, 16-17-year-olds were not able to vote in the first Independence referendum and were not able to vote in the EU referendum, but Scottish voting legislation has changed so they would be able to vote in a second Scottish Independence referendum.

    Another very pro-EU group there too, also very likely to vote Yes.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Ben Cooper wrote:

    The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.

    I’ve seen little sign of any desire for the former from Juncker et al (though plenty of the latter). Though the trouble with that assumption is that by keeping Scotland the EU retains some of the advantages of the UK being a member – whilst in reality IS would be fairly irrelevant. Scotland on its own simply isn’t enough big enough for them to be that bothered.

    Though of course there’s also this issue:

    Ben Cooper wrote:

    Yup, that’d be great – then you can find out it’s us that’s been subsidising you not the other way around.

    You have seen the most recent figures with the current oil price? 😯

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    add in the mass of people now thinking they’ve been done over… I think polls should start to reflect it soon enough.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    aracer – Member
    bencooper » The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.
    I’ve seen little sign of any desire for the former from Juncker et al (though plenty of the latter). Though the trouble with that assumption is that by keeping Scotland the EU retains some of the advantages of the UK being a member – whilst in reality IS would be fairly irrelevant. Scotland on its own simply isn’t enough big enough for them to be that bothered.

    trying your best to make us as insignificant as possible. If the EU isn’t interested in countries with a population of 5 million. why do 11 of the 27 EU member states have 5 million or less population… a further 7 have 10m or less.

    Only 6 out of the 27 have 20m+.

    plus I doubt sturgeon would be acting as she is without some sort nod through backchannels.

    The EU looking to pile the pressure on to trigger article 50 would suggest they are quite hostile to brexit, so spliting the uk won’t be an undesirable thing to them imo. They are looking to set a precident here. lot of people looking on.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    joe wrote:

    If the EU isn’t interested in countries with a population of 5 million. why do 11 of the 27 EU member states have 5 million or less population… a further 7 have 10m or less.

    Of course the EU is interested in smaller countries – but there’s no particular reason for it to be more interested in a small Scotland than it would be in any other small country, which is what was being suggested as a reason why Scottish membership would be fast-tracked (which would be required for some of the other assumptions to work).

    The EU looking to pile the pressure on to trigger article 50 would suggest they are quite hostile to brexit, so spliting the uk won’t be an undesirable thing to them imo. They are looking to set a precident here. lot of people looking on.

    The EU central junta maybe – but I suspect they’re about to get a reality check they don’t have quite as much power as they think they do, and such a split isn’t so desirable to some EU members.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Ie the EU isn’t interested in countries with a population of 5 million

    . 10 million disgruntled english remainers looking to emigrate, majority young graduates too, leave England to the xenophobes and oldies 😉

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
    Subscriber

    The Spanish attitude may change after Sunday. There’s common ground between the Catalans and the Scots, and tremendous unemployment in Spain, particularly amongst the young. One may anticipate a protest vote. There is a new mayor in Rome from Beppe Grillo’s M5S party, another in Turin. It’s going to be interesting.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    Why should indyref 2 give a different result? The 36% Scots who voted Brexit are likely to vote no.

    Add in the fact the SNP oil riches claim from indyref 1 has been blown out the water. Add in the massive deficit last year.

    How many of the 64% who voted Remain will decide the UK union where most of our trade and our family and friends are is on balance better than the EU?

    Getting another 15% on top of the Scots Brexits doesn’t look too hard to me.

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Other thing to bear in mind is the current devolution deal is now more or less worthless, from both sides of the argument. When this process stops, it’s only going to fuel the yes vote next time round I think.
    I also think the EU will be more open in its approach this time, as the reason they would not discuss the options last time was they felt it was a constitutional issue to be decided within the UK. This time, a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain in the referendum is now facing removal against the wishes of its electorate. I’d say this gives both NS and the EU a good reason to openly discuss the options and present them to the electorate if a 2nd indy ref occurs.
    Other thing to consider is I imagine the EU would want to limit the loss of the UK as much as possible, if this meant an option to keep Scotland IF it became independent I think they would be keen to do so.
    I guess we’ll see.

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
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    FastYoungGit commented…

    In or out what ever your view. I’m sure you ll be pleased to hear Jean-Claude Juncker saying we cannot delay the process and insisting we change prime minister in days (rather than following due process) as we owe it to Europe.

    I think the point made was that the British voting public (rightly or wrongly) didn’t want unelected EU officials dictating our politics.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    This time, a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain in the referendum

    Does the EU see Scotland as a country? I mean in a technical sense. Is it the same as Greenland?

    Edit: Gibraltar and Northern Ireland may also be looking for the same deal as Scotland too

    bencooper
    Member

    How many of the 64% who voted Remain will decide the UK union where most of our trade and our family and friends are is on balance better than the EU?

    That 62% doesn’t include the 150,000 EU citizens or all the 16-17 year olds who weren’t eligible to vote in the Eu referendum but will be eligible to vote in the Independence referendum.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    aracer – Member
    seosamh77 » If the EU isn’t interested in countries with a population of 5 million. why do 11 of the 27 EU member states have 5 million or less population… a further 7 have 10m or less.
    Of course the EU is interested in smaller countries – but there’s no particular reason for it to be more interested in a small Scotland than it would be in any other small country, which is what was being suggested as a reason why Scottish membership would be fast-tracked (which would be required for some of the other assumptions to work).

    I’d say there’s a bit question over whether it’s being fast track or retaining membership, we aren’t the ones wanting to leave.

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    dmorts wrote:

    Does the EU see Scotland as a country?

    ?

    Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone! The fact is is in a political union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland does not diminish or reduce Scotland’s legal status.

    Edit: What else could it be?

    Premier Icon YoKaiser
    Subscriber

    I think the last election was as good an indicator of the shift in attitudes as anything else. SNP almost across the board as voters realised The Promise was waffle and then we still ended up with the Tory. The EU vote another.

    Premier Icon dmorts
    Subscriber

    Edit: What else could it be?

    Something that the EU uses as an excuse not to go along with Nicolas Sturgeon’s ambitions, e.g. saying it is just a region

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    Under any test Scotland is a country, it’s politically, historically, geographically distinct and has its own legal system, Parliament etc.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Why would the EU not want Scotland to stay in the EU?

    5thElefant
    Member

    Edit: What else could it be?

    A region?

    I’m curious to know Scotland’s actual status. Not curious enough to Google it though.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    joe wrote:

    I’d say there’s a bit question over whether it’s being fast track or retaining membership, we aren’t the ones wanting to leave.

    Well I’m not wanting to leave either.

    You have the issue of timescales – it doesn’t seem plausible that a referendum could be held and independence negotiated before the UK leaves the EU. Not given that Scottish independence is rather more complicated than the UK leaving the EU, and those civil servants who might work on the process are going to be rather busy.

    Though the point remains that the EU aren’t going to be so excited about retaining Scotland as a token of the UK – not enough to make special rules which could cause upset elsewhere. Don’t get the idea I’m particularly against you doing so – just being realistic.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    thv3 wrote:

    Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations

    km79
    Member

    If Scotland is a region then what is England?

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.

    sootyandjim
    Member

    Under any test Scotland is a country, it’s politically, historically, geographically distinct and has its own legal system, Parliament etc.

    Currency? Distinct economy?

    Start reading…

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm

    The ‘Conditions for Membership’ bit is interesting.

    “a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;”

    5thElefant
    Member

    If Scotland is a region then what is England?

    Another region?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    joe wrote:

    well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.

    Well no, that’s one of the big problems! See how the financial markets reacted to a potential IS last time, and I don’t think an independence referendum is going to increase the certainty…

    Premier Icon thv3
    Subscriber

    aracer wrote:

    thv3  » Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations

    A Country is not defined by its currency, otherwise half of the America’s that use the dollar would not qualify. The link to the United Nations, includes nations, not countries, and Scotland is represented by the UK.

    Country Wiki

    Scotland Wiki

    I can’t believe whether Scotland is a country or not is in question! 🙁

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