Lance, latest have we done it yet.

I think the damning stuff in the report is the lying. why say you aren’t in contact with Ferrari in 2009 when you were, unless you have something to hide. (hundreds of emails prove he was)

Anyway, I’m clearly out of my depth amongst all the doping & legal experts here. I didn’t realise STW was populated with so many globally-renowned lawyers & scientists … unless we’re all just repeating stuff we found on the internet & agree with?

No just agreeing with the uncontested USADA report. What’s the source of your fantasy?

The tests say one thing and the person says the opposite.

And it is now known that it was quite easy to cheat the test.

Millar never failed a drugs test.

He was caught in posession of EPO* though, which kind of removes the need for a positive test!

*OK, empty vials…

*OK, empty vials…

Legally that can only prove that he was in possession of empty vials. Any conviction would have to come from a confession, no?

And it is now known that it was quite easy to cheat the test.

Indeed, and it’s often cyclists who come clean that explain to the testers how they beat the tests, and help improve the testing in the process. Microdosing EPO is a good example of that.

Can’t really believe some people are still claiming he’s innocent. Where’s RealMan?

Legally that can only prove that he was in possession of empty vials. Any conviction would have to come from a confession, no?

Possession of the paraphernalia for doping is enough in France. The bloke booted off the tour this year was caught with a syringe and the fact it was just a placebo given to him by a homeopath didn’t save him. Just having the needles is a crime.

Can’t really believe some people are still claiming he’s innocent.

Celebrity has become a religion, the deference shown to those in the media spotlight often leaves me astonished.

I don’t get it, pro cyclist doped and lied about it…..and?

Can’t really believe some people are still claiming he’s innocent. Where’s RealMan?

Some people and some major corporations and organisations! Makes you realise how much influence he has and how much of a myth he’s built up over the years.

Possession of the paraphernalia for doping is enough in France.* The bloke booted off the tour this year was caught with a syringe and the fact it was just a placebo given to him by a homeopath didn’t save him. Just having the needles is a crime.

That’s fair enough and if you know the laws and still allow yourself to get caught by holding on to a syringe, etc. I think Millar has admitted that the mistake was not throwing away the syringe, but equally he was glad he was caught.
*Does mean that ownership of a high performance sports car means you’re guilty of speeding? 😕 I know time and opportunity comes into it, but so does reasonable doubt. Complicated this legal stuff, innit?

Joao,

I’ll use you analogy in a slightly different manner. If I drink 6 pints, then get in the car in Inverness, drive to London, and pass a breath test in London 10 hours later, does that mean I wasn’t drink driving?.

Does mean that ownership of a high performance sports car means you’re guilty of speeding?

Has anyone in a high powered sports car never exceeded the speed limit ever?

Has anyone in a high powered sports car never exceeded the speed limit ever?

Only the ones caught by traffic cops and the tools to do it, but that’s not the point I was making. The point being that French law assumes you are speeding simply because you have the tools in your possession to do it. Guilty until proven innocent.

Does mean that ownership of a high performance sports car means you’re guilty of speeding? I know time and opportunity comes into it, but so does reasonable doubt. Complicated this legal stuff, innit?

Not really. Being in possession of doping paraphernalia is explicitly illegal, owning a high performance sports car is not.

Analogies are not always useful, but isn’t a better one that if someone is carrying a car-lock-opening thing then likely they are a car thief, and not an AA/RAC man?

Not just the means, but also motive.

They won’t bust a hospital for having the paraphernalia.

Only the ones caught by traffic cops and the tools to do it, but that’s not the point I was making. The point being that French law assumes you are speeding simply because you have the tools in your possession to do it. Guilty until proven innocent

Only in relation to this particular offence. I think the point is that there’s no good reason for a cyclist to have syringes, blood bags, drugs etc in his possession excluding for medical reasons which he’d have documentation for so the only possibility for having them other than this is doping and so you don’t need to be caught doing it, just having the means to do so. View it more like having a dozen packages of heroin on you is a crime and probably classed as an intention to supply drugs despite the fact you may never have been caught selling them.

Glitchy

Reading David Millar’s book at present and he says that there is still a reasonable sized doping culture in the sport, but that a lot of it is down to the deliberate misuse of the therapeutic use expemtion certificate or whatever its called.

The point is that it is possible to have a high performance car and not speed. If you have drugs paraphernalia you have to explain what you were going to use it for.

I’m intrigued by this French thing. Could someone provide a link please? The cases I’m aware of for the 2012 Tour involved police suveillance over long periods, money trails, dealers, telephone tapping and enough evidence to quite reasonably bring a prosecution. This one for example

Nike still supporting Lance. Quite surprising really.

Not really. Far too much invested Livestrong, which effectively IS Lance. They’ll be hoping this blows over and the memories of Lance the American multi-TDF winner remain and they can go on selling yellow things that contribute a small amount to a cancer charity.

Ironically, it appears to be the bullying and intimidation of Simeoni and ‘witnesses’ which has done for him by allowing USADA to set aside the statute of limitations covering earlier doping evidence.

My overriding image of the man will always be the smug ‘zipped lips’ to the peleton as he dragged him back.

I’m interested at what UCI will do now re the Kimmage libel case. The USADA report doesn’t appear to have the smoking gun connecting McQuaid et al to suppression of LA’s positive test, although there appears to be plenty that hints at an improper relationship and a deep reluctance to address doping.

Only in relation to this particular offence. I think the point is that there’s no good reason for a cyclist to have syringes, blood bags, drugs etc in his possession excluding for medical reasons which he’d have documentation for so the only possibility for having them other than this is doping and so you don’t need to be caught doing it, just having the means to do so. View it more like having a dozen packages of heroin on you is a crime and probably classed as an intention to supply drugs despite the fact you may never have been caught selling them.

Which is fair comment.

The point is that it is possible to have a high performance car and not speed.

The point is that it was my point and NOT open to your interpretation!!! 😈

I find the moral maze around drugs in sport fascinating. I wanted to believe that Lance was clean and read his books and swallowed the story like most of us. And frankly drew some inspiration from them. But in the back of mind was the pretty obvious conclusion that the fairy story was just that. But for me, this is true for most pro sport and I am cynical enough to believe that sport remains riddled with drugs – evidenced by the fact that it had filtered down to my sons’ experiences in lowly things such as junior county tennis. There are plenty of UK athletic heros and heroines who have made that jump from strong performer to world beater (often towards the end of their careers) and yet we seem happy to accept their performances almost without question or doubt.

While I abhor cheating/drug taking in sport in principle, I can’t help wondering if the only solution in practice is no drugs testing at all. Let’s give up on the charade of drug testing and pretending things are clean and leave it up to the sportsmen and woman to decide. Like the Romans in the Colliseum we crave spectacle, enhanced with records and feats of excellence (perceived or otherwise). Reading Tyler’s book, there was an interesting sub-plot in that, yes they were all cheats, but the cheating essentially allowed them to push themselves harder/train more intensively. The drugs didnt negate the need to work hard and push bodies to extremes, they facilitated it. And boy, didn’t we all lap it up!

Felt odd to see all the LA posters still adorning the walls of my LBS yesterday!

I can’t help wondering if the only solution in practice is no drugs testing at all. Let’s give up on the charade of drug testing and pretending things are clean and leave it up to the sportsmen and woman to decide

But actually that is no decision. If you allow un-checked doping then you leave an environment where to be a success you need to dope. So even as a supremely talented rider, your choice is also-ran or doping. Nothing in-between as you can be sure if there was no testing, some people would happily dope at great risk to themselves if it meant money and fame.

And if you allowed unfettered doping, there would be those who would be prepared to dope, and pressure teammates to dope to a level potentially seriously harmful to their future health just to squeeze out a little more power over the opposition.

I can’t help wondering if the only solution in practice is no drugs testing at all. Let’s give up on the charade of drug testing and pretending things are clean and leave it up to the sportsmen and woman to decide

It is an interesting idea, though it would probably turn into a complete freak show that no one could relate to if anything goes.

Sounds like Lance really doesn’t it 😉

Where there are no tests for a drug athletes do kill themselves. In cycling there are the learning-phase EPO deaths and the suspicious deaths over recent years. Comas and the odd death due to insulin abuse are found in bodybuilding so why not cycling? Look no further than the Livestrong site[/url] for a how-to. Obviously lean muscle is useful to cyclist as well as body builders, perhaps more useful to cyclists though is using insulin to cram muscle full of glycogen without needing a potentially fattening pasta party.

I suspect some of the strange diets a small number of cyclists have adopted may be to cmplement insulin use.

Let me stress the verb “wonder”! I am not necessarily supporting the idea. But atlas and Martin, are you not merely describing the status quo?

Makes you wonder how clean Dodgeball was….

All Fuentes’ clients on insulin in 05 including Cantador.

I can’t help wondering if the only solution in practice is no drugs testing at all. Let’s give up on the charade of drug testing and pretending things are clean and leave it up to the sportsmen and woman to decide

Nope. It seems clear from the cyclists statements that they weren’t really happy with doping but felt forced to at the time is order to compete.

True, but everyone does have a choice at the end of the day. And they chose to…….

teamhurtmore – Member
True, but everyone does have a choice at the end of the day. And they chose to…….

I think you might be grossly over simplifying the situation there, the pressure and desire to win at that level of sport is too extreme for most normal push bike riders to appreciate. Myself definitely included. Add to that an all pervasive culture within the sport and it becomes much muddier.

True, but everyone does have a choice at the end of the day. And they chose to…….

If you’d dedicated your whole life to cycle racing, and were really, really good at it, then realised you were never going to win anything against those who were doping, and you were being pressured to do it by team-mates, team managers etc – what do you reckon you would have done?

It seems clear from the cyclists statements that they weren’t really happy with doping

They ALL come away with that line when they are caught but it really doesn’t fit with the psychology of the ‘win at all costs’ which the top guys need to possess.

I get the distinct impression, from everything I’ve read, that doping was accepted as ‘part of training’, viewed in much the same way as altitude training or strict dieting regimes and just an easier or less time consuming way of getting the same results. Obviously the results would be better but it’s quite easy to rationalise something like that in your mind and convince yourself that it really IS ok, which would go a long way to explain why LA, AC etc. are able to lie so convincingly.

I also feel it was major reason as to why the authorities have kept quiet/turned a blind eye (condoning is probably too strong a word) because the ‘general public’ wouldn’t really understand, with obvious detrimental effect on sponsorship etc. and not out of any concern for rider welfare.