Is this the “At the time I shouted loudest, bullied everyone into believing me, but I did actually lie and it’s all your fault” defence?

As time passes the more sad this whole mess makes me, its tragic.

he is a lying cheat whose word and opinion is worth less than nothing

Letting him disappear into obscurity would be the best punishment

he is a lying cheat whose word and opinion is worth less than nothing

I think he is willing to tell everything but not at the expense of being jailed and/or losing all his “hard earned” money.

He probably has a point about the US government though.

Oh my word, the guy is ruled by arrogance isn’t he?

I can’t see him coming out of this one well.

I think he is willing to tell everything but not at the expense of being jailed and/or losing all his “hard earned” money.

So he is not willing to tell everything

Has he not always insisted he was telling the truth

If you wish to beleive hom now when you accept he is not even doing it now then that is your choice

Personally if he told me it was raining I would check

GRUM the govt may be guilty of believing him or not checking fully but do you really think if they knew what they knew now they would have sponsored him

I will be surprised if they did know he was a drugs cheat and did not care tbh. Were there not contractual stipulations re drugs use banning it for example. Given he went to court at least twice and “proved” he was clean why should they have known?

Personally if he told me it was raining I would check

That’s a fair point, if he does come out with everything then I suppose opinion will still be split on the issue of is he actually telling the truth.

His influence will not go away for a while, he still casts a dark shadow over cycling and Le Tour in particular.

What saddens and upsets me most about this is the total double standards right across the board.

ASO & the UCI were happy enough to have LA riding the Tour cos it massively boosted the profile of road racing, especially in the States. You can argue that the increased popularity of previously low-key races like the Tour Down Under and the Tour of California are almost directly attributable to Lance (like when he got paid a 7 figure sum to ride the TDU).

Trek, Nike and Oakley seemed quite happy too although deep down the key figures probably knew that doping was involved – it was rampant throughout the peloton.

Unfortunately, Armstrong’s high profile is both his strength and his Achilles Heel. It allowed him, the whole USPS team, the managers, sponsors & the sport to cash in and hit a never-before-seen high. But now his high-profile is counting against him in a way that would never happen with other dopers like Ullrich, Riis, Virenque, Pantani, Contador, hell even Landis has almost managed to disappear into obscurity. But that has it’s own edge in that he’s become the scapegoat for the whole sport. Doping didn’t start or end with LA and to continue concentrating on him is massively detrimental to the whole sport.

Either you say “**** it, everything stands, now time for truth & amnesty and a new page” or you start tearing the entire results history of the sport to pieces, suing everyone who ever doped for “misleading” sponsors, the public etc (is it misleading if the entire sport is engaged in an almost open doping policy as it was back in the pre-Lance days?)

One thing is certain and that is that he could never have done what he did without the connivance of others. A few were willing to take a stand and speak against him but far more were willing to profit from his cheating.

Junkyard – lazarus

Letting him disappear into obscurity would be the best punishment

This. Best for cycling in general IMO.

Sports drugs were developed by governments during the cold war. Not that long ago. It’s very hard to believe drug use wasn’t seem as the norm by anyone involved with sport in the government.

Can you link to a scandal involving a non Eastern European one involving the govt at the highest level?
Can you show it was the norm?

I think not on either count

What an egomaniac. He doesn’t know when to shut up.

He’d fit in fine on STW.

Can you link to a scandal involving a non Eastern European one involving the govt at the highest level?
Can you show it was the norm?

Scandal? There’s nothing scandalous about it. There’s lots of material out there about sports drug history. Have a read.

5thElefant – Member
Sports drugs were developed by governments during the cold war. Not that long ago. It’s very hard to believe drug use wasn’t seem as the norm by anyone involved with sport in the government.

You’re assuming that people working in different bits of governments talk to each other? That’s crazy talk.

We wish he would fade away yet we are still talking and arguing over him.

You’re assuming that people working in different bits of governments talk to each other? That’s crazy talk.

😆

There’s loads of history out there, but here’s a nice bit from Wiki…

AAS use in sports began in October 1954 when John Ziegler, a doctor who treated American athletes, went to Vienna with the American weightlifting team. There he met a Russian physician who, over “a few drinks”, repeatedly asked “What are you giving your boys?” When Ziegler returned the question, the Russian said that his own athletes were being given testosterone.

Returning to America, Ziegler tried low doses of testosterone on himself, on the American trainer Bob Hoffman and on two lifters, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara. All gained more weight and strength than any training programme would produce but there were side-effects.[27] Ziegler sought a drug without after-effects and hit on an anabolic steroid, methandrostenolone, (Dianabol, DBOL), made in the US in 1958 by Ciba.[28][29]

The results were impressive—so impressive that lifters began taking ever more. Steroids spread to other sports where bulk mattered. Paul Lowe, a former running back with the San Diego Chargers American football team, told a California legislative committee on drug abuse in 1970: “We had to take them [steroids] at lunchtime. He [an official] would put them on a little saucer and prescribed them for us to take them and if not he would suggest there might be a fine.”

It was all above-board and open. It’s a really recent phenomenon to consider drug use a bad thing.

It’s just a sorry mess that I wish would just fade away and be put in the bin marked history.

Did anyone else not feel a slight ting of irony about the Armstrong shaped elephant in room during Froome’s speech (“This yellow jersey will stand the test of time”) and the 3 three past ‘heros’ of Hinault, Indurain and Merckx being lauded in the cavalcade, one of whom was caught 3 times and the other two (esp Indurain) who I would put my house on being a bit naughty in the past?

Sure Armstrong did bad things but it was at a time when pretty much all the household name riders were also doing bad things and the only reason everyone is being so reticent to talk is there is so much to loose. Just got to let it lie(dual meaning irony intended!).

From what I can tell, and I’m no cycling historian, Lance was worse than the others because he effectively ran a team wide doping operation, coerced other people into doping and bullied them into silence. That’s worse than simply doping yourself.

Depends on your perspective. If it’s drugs are bad m’kay, then sure. If it’s winning is all that matters then not so much.

I would suggest that to believe that the Armstrong/UPS team wide doping system was the only one in operation then or at other times in the past would be to be extremely naive.

From what I can tell, and I’m no cycling historian, Lance was worse than the others because he effectively ran a team wide doping operation, coerced other people into doping and bullied them into silence. That’s worse than simply doping yourself.

This is the public perception. I do wonder how much further it went – UCI, sponsors, Gov’ts etc. I suspect that if LA was offered cimmunity from prosecution for the complete truth we wouldn’t get all of it but the likelihood of one man being able to control all of that and still train/race a bike seems absurd.

I feel the same about other so-called repentant ex-dopers – if they were truly sorry then they should name names, organisations etc.

“But now his high-profile is counting against him in a way that would never happen with other dopers like Ullrich, Riis, Virenque, Pantani, Contador, hell even Landis has almost managed to disappear into obscurity. But that has it’s own edge in that he’s become the scapegoat for the whole sport.”

No he is not the scape goat for the whole sport – other people have been punished for drug taking and indeed, quite a few died due to taking drugs.

He is not disappearing from the media because he cannot stand to loose the attention – his huge ego will not let him accept he has lost.

So every few weeks up he pops with some excuse for his behaviour or maybe an article to make sure he keeps himself in the spotlight. Having been thrown off of an amateur race in the USA in the last few months he is desperate to get himself back in another one however much its clear most people don’t want him. Only a fool would do this at this point in time. If he just backed off for 2 or 3 years and then reappeared he would have done better (scum that he is).

He is a man unable to make reason filled judgements, just self obsessed ego filled ones.

What he said

We wish he would fade away yet we are still talking and arguing over him.

Has this thread overtaken the Thatcher thread yet ?
*see what I did there*

I suppose his thinking could be going along the lines below. I guess massive ego and deviousness combine here pretty seamlessly so both could collide successfully:

Keep trying to get back in control and if it does not work out immediately, it is vital to be seen to be ‘Suffering’. Suffering keeps you in the public awareness which is good for future plans/intentions.

Twist things to look like you are a victim, not a ruthless criminal – be seen as the unwanted outcast, innocently and heroically trying for redemption even though you hardly did anything wrong. Blame anyone at all, to confuse the public as much as possible. Confusion calls for strong leaders who will point out the correct direction.

People feel sorry for underdogs
People side with underdogs
People like to be given clear direction amid chaos
People who sympathise will gradually influence others to sympathise with me, as used to happen before.

I can get control of the situation again – as I will regain control of the publics belief system in growing numbers and can increasingly lead them in any way I choose – as I did for so many years with my charity and my sport … people love and mindlessly follow a strong leader who speaks with utter self belief. (Reflect on Tony Blair here!)

Whats scary is how his catch phrases have caught on so well in the past and spread so widely. Its so efficient. The number of times I have seen ordinary people quote ‘waste of tax dollars’ like a mantra etc in reference to the drugs investigation. Now we have versions of ‘I am the victim who is punished, others go free and unpunished’ (untrue – careers ruined, fines, distressed families, dead people). But they are strong defined statements said with utter conviction and people just love to be lead, its human nature, it saves thinking things out for themselves. 🙁

I feel so sad that there are still amateur races prepared to encourage him to race with them. Cant help but wonder what sort of people their race organisers are to put a known cheat in with a load of hobby runners and riders.

From what I can tell, and I’m no cycling historian, Lance was worse than the others because he effectively ran a team wide doping operation, coerced other people into doping and bullied them into silence. That’s worse than simply doping yourself.

So, like pretty much every other team – the Festina affair of 1998 blew open that one, most teams ran their own doping programme with a percentage of prize (and sponsorship) money allocated to a team-wide drug slush fund.

Don’t kid yourself, everyone was involved and the few that spoke out (whether against LA or against their own teams or other riders) got hounded from the sport. OK LA took it to another level with the lawsuits but he’s far from the only rider who bullied and cajoled others. The whole team,; the riders, the doctors, the managers were not just in on it but active participants.

So to hound one rider over 10+ years of doping allegations is an insult to everyone else who did it and got away with it, who never spoke out. Even some of the journalists were in on it but they couldn’t print anything cos suddenly their “exclusive interviews”, their backstage passes etc disappear.

By all means go after Armstrong but let’s not pretend it was just him, let’s turn the whole bloody sport inside out. Or, if you’re not going to do that – if you’re not going to erase Riis, Ullrich, Virenque etc from the records as you have done with LA, leave the whole thing alone and move on.

everyone was involved and the few that spoke out (whether against LA or against their own teams or other riders) got hounded from the sport

That sBS it may have been the majority [ I am not that convinced tbh] but to claim everyone did take PEDS is part of the LA mythology that he was only doing what others were doing

I always wonder how many TdF Cuddles would have if they had all raced clean

LA did get special treatment but he got that because he was the best in terms of performance, cheating and suing the shit out of anyone who said he cheated whilst peddling the utter BS line about it just being about the bike

Had he not been so vocal outspoken and litigious who knows how it would have panned out

Its true to say some others “got away with it” Its also true to say they are not self publicising multi millionaire “charity” workers. The highest profile rider got the most attention – is that really surprising or a witch hunt?

This is nto to say others dont deserve some attention

That sBS it may have been the majority [ I am not that convinced tbh] but to claim everyone did take PEDS is part of the LA mythology that he was only doing what others were doing

I’d be astounded if it wasn’t everyone.

I quite like this quote (Wiki Doping_in_sport again):

The gold medallist pentathlete Mary Peters said: “A medical research team in the United States attempted to set up extensive research into the effects of steroids on weightlifters and throwers, only to discover that there were so few who weren’t taking them that they couldn’t establish any worthwhile comparisons.”

I’d be astounded if it wasn’t everyone.

Well of the 87 usable samples from the 99 tour, tested in 05, 13 came back positive for epo. So not everyone.

But we have been over this again and again and again, if you still want to believe its a witch hunt against the heroic texan, you just keep on believing that.

Be astounded then by the actual evidence rather than the LA spin about everyone else

So not everyone was doing so perhaps he was just a dirty cheating lying bastard…hard as that is for some folk to accept

Well of the 87 usable samples from the 99 tour, tested in 05, 13 came back positive for epo. So not everyone.

LA was tested hundreds of times without it coming up positive, as were several of his team mates. From the accounts I have read, it was only those that over-doped that failed the EPO test.

there was no test for EPO ain 99 and the test was done retrospectively in 2005 on stored samples when they could test for EPO.

He failed and some others but iirc three of his samples failed

Either way the point is the claim of endemic within the peleton is false

Just try reading about the 05 retrospective tests instead of continually regurgitating lance’s party defence line.

I’d be astounded if it wasn’t everyone.

Not a Lance tour but they have just released the positives from the 1998 tour. All the usual suspects are present but its not everyone.

A noteable exception is Chris Boardman. He would have been tested at least twice that year as he won the prolog and spent two days in Yellow.

To my eyes this adds a huge amount of credibility to GB cycling as Boardman was the seed that started the whole thing and there is a lot of evidence to say that, that seed was clean.

Who is to say how far he could have gone if the sport were clean then. We could have had a Wiggo 10 years earlier.

Boardman- thats nice to know 🙂

Dont think there has ever been any doubts about Boardman
Freak of nature who never cramped was how his best man described him to me – I think he just meant on the bike

STUART O’Grady has admitted to doping before the 1998 Tour de France and says one horrible mistake will tarnish his entire career.

The South Australian cycling star tonight broke down as he told The Advertiser of his decision to take performance enhancing EPO in the two weeks before the `98 Tour.

He retired on Monday after riding a record 17th Tour de France amid speculation he would be named in a French Senate inquiry into doping in sport.

The inquiry listed one of his urine samples from the ’98 Tour as “suspicious”.

In an exclusive interview with The Advertiser, O’Grady admitted he sourced the EPO – a blood booster – and administered it without anyone knowing.

He then carried it with him during the `98 Tour, but never used it during the race.

MORE: CYCLISTS WHO TESTED POSITIVE FOR BANNED EPO

He said he felt he had no other option and had to use it to survive or be competitive in the race during the sport’s dirtiest era.

O’Grady said he destroyed it (EPO) when the Festina Affair, where riders were booted off the Tour for alleged doping, blew up in the first week.

O’Grady is adamant he never used EPO, or any other banned substance again.

“Leading into the Tour I made a decision,” he said.

“I sourced it (EPO) myself, there was no one else involved, it didn’t involve the team in any way.

“I just had to drive over the border and buy it at any pharmacy.

“The hardest part of all this is I did it for two weeks before the Tour de France.

“I used extremely cautious amounts because I’d heard a lot of horror stories and did the absolute minimum of what I hoped would get me through.

“When the Festina Affair happened, I smashed it, got rid of it and that was the last I ever touched it.

“That’s the hardest thing to swallow out of all this – it was such a long time ago and one very bad judgement is going to taint a lot of things and people will have a lot of questions.”

O’Grady, an Olympic gold medallist and Paris-Roubaix champion, said the hardest thing was telling his parents in Paris on Monday.

“It was the worst moment of my life,” he said.

“I just asked them to listen so I could paint a complete picture.

“All I’ve ever wanted in my career was to make mum and dad and my family proud.

“You win Olympics, Paris-Roubaix and now all of that is going to be tainted by this action and I wish it could be changed but it can’t.”

O’Grady was 24 at the time and riding for French team GAN.

In the 1998 Tour de France he won Stage 14 and became the second Australian to ever wear the yellow jersey.

“I want to paint a picture why I chose this avenue and make people understand how different things were and how isolated I felt,” he said.

“After my first Tour (in 1997) when I was dropped after 5km on a mountain day and you’re questioning what the hell I am doing in this sport you’re not anywhere near competitive at something you’re supposed to be pretty good at.

“It wasn’t systematic doping, I wasn’t trying to deceive people, I was basically trying to survive in what was a very grey area.

“We’re humans who make mistakes. It was a decision I made at the time which I thought would basically get me through the Tour.”

O’Grady is adamant he never cheated after that.

“It was for an extremely small percentage of my entire life,” he said.

“When you start seeing riders getting arrested around you, people being taken to jail, that’s all I needed to scare me.

“I was lucky enough to win a lot of things, they can test my samples from Paris-Roubaix and my Olympic medals for the next thousand years, they’re not going to find anything.

“There is nothing more to hide.

“I have done everything since then on natural ability and when people ask `why are you still racing?’

“I guess part of me deep down is to prove that you can do the Tour clean, win Olympic gold medals clean.

“You can do as much as your natural ability allows you to and I’ve been riding myself into the ground trying to help out young guys, to be the leader, and maybe a small part of that is to punish myself for my own guilt.”

Despite his guilt, he never wanted to come forward.

“Who in their right mind and the environment we’ve been in the last couple of years would stand up and be crucified?

“I guess I just wanted this to go away and the only person I’ve cheated out of all this is myself, my family and friends.

“I’ve been the one living with it and trying to smash it out ever since.”

O’Grady still has not been approached by any French government official but said he feared this day could be coming when he read a story about a list of failed drug tests from the 1998 Tour being released.

He said he knew it was time to retire after winning the teams time trial with Orica-GreenEDGE on Stage 4 of the Tour this month.

“I was standing up on the podium with the boys after winning the team time trial and I thought `this is it’,” O’Grady said.

“I knew about what I’d done in the past, that the time to hang up my bike was coming, my family would be here and this was the final chapter I needed for closure.”

O’Grady a six-time Olympian between 1992 and 2012 said he could have kept lying in the face of his `suspicious’ test result.

“There is no B Sample, I could have kept lying, there is nothing but my confession right now,” he said.

“I want to close this chapter of my life and have a fresh start. I realise there are going to be consequences but I don’t want to stand in front of people anymore and lie.”

He said he would take some comfort knowing two of his best mates, Australian Matt White and Scot David Millar, had been through similar circumstances and emerged on the other side.

“Deep down I knew I’d made a mistake, and if there’s anyone on this planet who has never made a mistake come up and throw the first rock.

“I realise my situation is different to most people but we are human beings.

“I spent my whole childhood dreaming of racing for Australia and every moral gene in my body was anti-doping and anti-cheating, the whole time I was around the AIS helped me achieve that.

“Then all of a sudden I was on my own in Europe getting my arse kicked and knowing it was around you (which) opened the option for bad judgement.”

This puts it all rather well !

Hmmm …… can’t get the link to work but if you search ‘doping’ on the linked page, the piece will come up.