Jeremy Corbyn

Still learning (on the job) ?

Or perhaps just not very good at it?

Why did he give up the attack line on Boris? Should have gone after that.

He's the political Raheem Sterling. When faced with an open goal, never miss an opportunity to spoon it into Row Z.

Angus Robertson may be cliched but he was more successful in challenging the PM

Who are the Opposition?

Ow, Jamie Reed having a harsh dig at Jezza!!

He's good at reading from a sheet. That's one tick in the box....

I agree JC is crap at the PMQ game, but isn't it pathetic that our system still has this Oxford Union-style stupid charade?

but isn't it pathetic that our system still has this Oxford Union-style stupid charade?

Don't be silly, this is what 'effective opposition' is. That and getting a round of applause on Question Time. It's pretty hilarious that Corbyn's critics use PMQs as the stick with which to beat him, as it's exactly the sort of thing that his politics rejects.

There is nothing remotely like PMQs at the Oxford Union.

Corbyn will be glad that was fhe past PMQ's for the summer, Theresa on her first outing gave him a real battering.

Corbyn really doesn't help himself does he, first question and its Orgreave?

Seriously when surely you should be trying to get away from the image that you are still fighting battles from the 70's and 80's, you you come up with that?

In their own different ways the Tories and SNP are looking to the future while Labour are looking back. I think that succinctly tells you why Labour are losing ground.

There is nothing remotely like PMQs at the Oxford Union.

Yes, but that really doesn't help portray anyone who isn't a Corbyn acolyte as a toff, does it?

Stay on message, comrades! Red Torytoffs will be first against the wall come the glorious revolution! Just as soon as we've stopped bickering about internecine pettiness, that is.

Corbyn really doesn't help himself does he, first question and its Orgreave?

He had a tip from the other moderniser Skinner!

So his politics rejects the idea of holding the PM to account on a weekly basis - what an odd form of opposition. Still explains why he is so poor at it and why his colleagues (clean them out) looked so glum.

Corbyn really doesn't help himself does he, first question and its Orgreave?

Its his comfort zone. His default setting. The one he absolutely refuses to leave. He's spent 30 years preaching to the converted/leftie faithful at Stop the War and Anti-Aparthied rallies. `And while thats admirable as a backbencher, he hasn't moved on. Its literally all he's capable of doing. He has absolutely zero interrest in reaching out to anyone outside his narrow, unquestioning secular base. Which is why he hasn't a hope of ever getting close to winning a general election.

And his stance on Trident - the leader of the labour party standing up and denouncing official labour party policy - has left him (and the labour party) looking absolutely ridiculous. As the Tories all gleefully pointed out today, while the labour benches sat silent, and stony faced

if your own leader is leaving you wide open to scorn and ridicule from your political opposition, for their own amusement, it really is time to go

if your own leader is leaving you wide open to scorn and ridicule from your political opposition, for their own amusement, it really is time to go

Perhaps someone should have a quiet word and tell him?

So his politics rejects the idea of holding the PM to account on a weekly basis

Are you really suggesting that's what PMQs is?

Are you really suggesting that's what PMQs is?

Not at the moment. 😀

Not at the moment, sadly

Are you really suggesting that's what PMQs is?

Let's ask Linda. Who may or may not be a made up person who may or may not have written to the messiah to ask him what he thinks.

[img] [/img]

I received a letter from Vladimir in [s]Moscow[/s] Chelsea, where he definitely wasn't poisening anyone with radioactive materials) asking if it was true that Britain would not be renewing its nuclear weapons. I assured him that this was indeed the case. Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking Vladimir for his commitment to world peace....

There is nothing remotely like PMQs at the Oxford Union.

According to whom? Silly game-playinng and personal jibes are an essential element of OUS politics.

Yes, but that really doesn't help portray anyone who isn't a Corbyn acolyte as a toff, does it?

Since messrs Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, and many more of our favourite frends were leading lights of the OUS it's not entirely inappropriate to draw the comparison.

Bllody biased media claiming that May wiped the floor with poor old Jezza - they aren't very nice or supportive are they?

So his politics rejects the idea of holding the PM to account on a weekly basis - what an odd form of opposition. Still explains why he is so poor at it

He could be better at it while still rejecting the form. The impression he gives is that he is just not that bright.

According to whom? Silly game-playinng and personal jibes are an essential element of OUS politics.

Anyone who has attended a debate there. You seem to be confusing two things. The Oxford Union is a debating society completely separate from OUSU, which is the student union you find at most universities. Cameron as far as I am aware was involved in neither to any significant degree, not sure about Osborne. Both Gove and Johnson were heavily involved in the debating society.

Anyone who has attended a debate there. You seem to be confusing two things. The Oxford Union is a debating society completely separate from OUSU, which is the student union you find at most universities.

As a member of the Oxford Union I'm sort of aware of that. But thanks for the laugh I got at your attempt at condescension 🙂

No condescension, just confused by use of abbreviation, OUS, I always remember it being referred to as the Union.

I saved 2 letters by using OUS instead of Union. Besides, in my day (!!) there was essentially no OUSU, just the JCRs 🙂

I think my day is probably before yours, I was there in Boris's time.

We were maybe there at almost the same time - also of Nixon's visit to the Union 🙂

Let's ask Linda.

To be honest I preferred Points Of View when Barry Took presented it - at least he had a sense of humour.

Bllody biased media claiming that May wiped the floor with poor old Jezza - they aren't very nice or supportive are they?

Ahh, comrade, that just a right-wing, extremist, biased, Murdochian plot by red tories. Which PROVES he is the true Messiah.

The impression he gives is that he is just not that bright.

That's because Corbyn isn't. The brains are elsewhere like John McDonnell

Nixon was in 78 - that was well before my time, although I was in Oxford, I was more excited by Willy Johnston turning up after he left the World Cup.

I'm loving the ex Oxford Union chat on the thread about the establishment-smashing beardy socialist messiah chaps

Good effort! 😀

I'm loving the ex Oxford Union chat on the thread about the establishment-smashing beardy socialist messiah chaps

Have they checked their privilege?

Have they checked their privilege?

I haven't heard it called that before 🙁

Nixon was in 78 - that was well before my time

Paah - youngsters. You will, more importantly, have missed Joy Division at the New Theatre 🙁

I'm loving the ex Oxford Union chat on the thread about the establishment-smashing beardy socialist messiah chaps

...when they could've been dropping out of North London Poly instead. Now [i]that's[/i] condescending...

[IMG] [/IMG]

A smear campaign from the right-wing, tory ... err Private Eye.

So if PMQ's isn't where Jeremy Corbyn holds the Prime Minister to account where has he been doing that then ? Its been 9 months and he's been totally ineffective just disagreeing with his own party as usual over his entire career. He hasn't even managed to get anything out of Chilcot apart from "self-harm" with the Labour Party apology.

The Tories are now on 40 per cent (up 10 points); Labour 29 per cent (down four points); Ukip 12 per cent (down eight points) and the Liberal Democrats on nine (up three points).

I am not a fan of polls but these won't make easy reading for Labour

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-poll-lead-yougov-labour-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-first-pmqs-thatcher-a7146526.html ]Independent link[/url]

183,541 applications to Labour Party in last 48 hrs

9 months and Jamby still does not like corbyn
Who could have foreseen such an unexpected turn out of events?

Blimey - 4.5 million quid - they should do this more often!

Indeed Alex, the same thing occurred to me.

JY no he is perfect, the longer he is around the more his left wing agenda will be consigned to the history books. I am 100% in favour of him being leader in 2020

As a fundamental socialist I personally just don't get Corbyn he is reasonably pleasant in s Stalinist way (cult of the personality and all that) but his one line to approach to the very serious problems this country currently have is bizarre, a good solid centre left party would wipe the floor with the current Tory/UKIP representation - I don't have an answer for an effective opposition and I can't see any individual in the Labour Party will thethe ability to pull this together, I think that the protest politics of the Corbynites is frankly laughable. I as a sort of socialist genuinely believe the Labour Party will not be any form of opposition they are simply fading away and we would do well to remember the utter destruction of labour in Scotland- even Jambys poll puts UKIP (God bless em) in striking distance of labour seats in the northern half of england - looking at the simple numbers no one is going to defeat the Tories in any shape or form for 10 to 15 years maybe never again as they can harness the rise of the right (UKIP) wing very easily something that is impossible for the current labour party - the dog is done for

Jam, what's wrong with a left wing agenda?

Jam, what's wrong with a left wing agenda?

No f***** votes for it!

I've just come from a local Momentum meeting this evening, the first one since the coup attempt, it was at least ten times larger than all the previous local Momentum meetings I've been to, which I found both very surprising and very encouraging.
It had a surprisingly diverse age range with quite a few younger members who did not appear to be particularly political, or left-wing for that matter. I would appear that Corbyn's appeal is that he offers them an alternative to the now very discredited British political class.

Thirsty enough and you'd drink camel piss, but that still doesn't make camel piss acceptable to drink.

Did this heady mix of momentum supporters know they'd been infiltrated by a far left marxist or did you wear your normal disguise?

JY no he is perfect, the longer he is around the more his left wing agenda will be consigned to the history books. I am 100% in favour of him being leader in 2020

Nothing crobyn has done would make you like him - possibly resign- anymore than anything Bris does will make me respect him

That is just the truth
Therefore any of your critique of him must be taken with a pinch of salt that says - whatever he is doing jamby will be criticising him

Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings...

[url=

video that sums up current politics.[/url]

jambalaya - Member

Indeed Alex, the same thing occurred to me.

enfht - Member

Did this heady mix of momentum supporters know they'd been infiltrated by a far left marxist or did you wear your normal disguise?

What [i]"normal disguise"[/i] ???

The [u]only[/u] reason you know I am a Marxist is because I openly declare that I'm a Marxist .... you daft muppet 😆

Even my username should remove any doubt of my commitment Marxist-Leninism.

I would in fact be mortified if people thought I wasn't a communist.

So thanks once again enfht for reminding everyone of how everything I post on here is from a class conscious Marxist perspective. And that Me, Bob Crow, and Mick McGahey, for example, came from the same stable 😀

Don't let anyone think for one moment that the pragmatism and tolerance which I express on here, in sharp contrast with your stereotypical middle-class revolutionary, somehow diminishes my Marxist credentials.

183,541 applications to Labour Party in last 48 hrs

The tragedy of all this is that the UK labour party is now the largest left wing grassroots membership organisation in Europe, if not the world, and most of the people at the top of the party are either completely opposed to it, or incapable of harnessing it towards arguing their case.

My main fear, and I'm seeing evidence of it all over social media among my many friends who like me voted for Corbyn in September, is that it's becoming a cult of personality. Which is very odd, as he doesn't really have one. The John Major of the left. It makes you think what would be possible with someone with a bit of energy and organisational ability.

Jam, what's wrong with a left wing agenda?

State control (interference)
Wealth redistribution
Higher spending
Reduced spending on defence and security generally
Republicanism

Junky, there is nothing Corbyn could do to get me to like him as he's desperately misguided, well intentioned (ie great sound bytes) but actually quite a dangerous indovidual giving credibiltiy and a platform to some very unpleasant people

@dazh these people joinng want to turn the Labour Party into something it"s not as they cannot find another party like the one they want. IMO they are not really "party members" they are entryists - political cookoos.

State control (interference)
Wealth redistribution
Higher spending
Reduced spending on defence and security generally
Republicanism

Apart from the last one the tory govt is pretty active in all those areas. Even the labour party in it's current rebellious mood doesn't entertain the idea of republicanism.

they are not really "party members" they are entryists

What does that mean exactly? People who've never been engaged with mainstream politics before? If I"m not mistaken for the past 3 decades politicians have been encouraging people to join up and get involved. I myself have had many conversations with labour party people where they've urged me to get involved. But now if I did I'd be dismissed as an entryist or a trot! Seems to me they want the bodies, and the membership fees, but not the ideas and the opinions that come with it.

I agree with dazh if this is a new movement then they need to crack on and the legacy MPS and members who are not at one with this need to resign/move/create a new party ... I might not like it but like the Brexit voters it is a form of democracy even if they don't know what to do once they have a Brexit or Labour Party. I think there is a pattern emerging of protest votes without a plan... it's all the fashion you know

Even my username should remove any doubt of my commitment Marxist-Leninism.

Eh? Surely some mistake, widely accepted that Che's beliefs and tactics were clear deviations from Marxism-Leninism? He was more of a Marxist-based left-radical revolutionary adventurist.

You don't understand what true Marxism-Leninism is ninfan. It's not about accepting every word uttered by two men as the Gospel Truth, whatever those on the ultra-left might suggest. My ideology liberated me and gave me the ability to think for myself. It provided me with the tools to this by allowing me to understand society from a class conscious perspective. Every position without exception that I take with regards to politics is from this perspective. Obviously not everyone comes to the same conclusions, Marxism-Leninism is not about everyone having identical thoughts - as far as I'm aware Mikhail Gorbachev still calls himself a Marxism-Leninist, there's an ocean which separates me and him. Although very little which separates me and someone like Jim Larkin, or Bob Crow and Mick McGahey for more contemporary examples.

they are not really "party members" they are entryists

The Labour Party is not experiencing any sort of "entryism", if it were it would be extraordinarily easy to identify.

You cannot have an organised strategy, with all the publicity it would require for it to be successful, of joining on mass a political party without leaving a huge amount of very easily identifiable evidence.

When the Militant Tendency practiced the classic Trotskyite strategy of entryism into the Labour Party in the 1980s they were perfectly open about who they were and what they were doing.

They even quite openly sold their very aptly named newspaper [i]"The Militant Tendency"[/i] at all Labour Party meetings/functions which they attended.

They made no secret whatsoever of who they were, what their ideology was, and what they were doing.

For a very long time the Labour Party did absolutely nothing to stop them, although there were mutterings of disapproval from some members in the party as they invariably put selling their newspaper and canvassing for their approved candidates above other considerations - there were officially Militant Tendency backed candidates.

It was Neil Kinnock who decided to purge the Labour Party of the Militant Tendency. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned whether that was justifiable - on the one hand I'm not a Trot and I don't approve of many of their tactics including entryism, but on the other hand they had as much right to be in the Labour Party as the right-wingers did. Unlike other Trots the Militant Tendency were predominately working-class trade unionists so they had as much right to call the Labour Party their party as a privately educated barrister such as Tony Blair has, more in fact imo.

Today the Labour Party is not experiencing any entryism, people are joining as individuals, and in far greater numbers than the total of all the Trot organisations put together.

Of course it serves the interests of Tories and right-wingers, such as jambalaya, to darkly suggest of a sinister and covert operation of infiltration within the Labour Party. US Senator McCarthy used very similar fear tactics of false claims of subversive infiltration to great effect in the Red Scare of 70 years ago. It's a very old right-wing ploy.

State control (interference)

What, control of important public infrastructure by the public's elected representatives? Sounds horrific. Far better we let private companies leach wealth out of the country's economy.

Wealth redistribution

So, left wing policies to make the rich slightly less rich and to lift the poor out of poverty are worse that neoliberal policies that facilitate the rich becoming obscene while driving the poor into destitution?

Higher spending

Can be offset by the below, and increase in tax revenue through the improved economy as a result of investment into critical infrastructure and industries.

Reduced spending on defence and security generally

Offsets the above. And as per a few pages back, who is going to invade us anyway?

Republicanism

So despite openly advocating to leave the "undemocratic" EU, you're quite happy with an unelected hereditary head of state, or German origin nonetheless.

One day a rabid right winger will come up with a semi-valid political argument, but I very much doubt that it will be you, Jamby.

Ernie - it's hardly like I'm the first person to challenge whether Che was a true Marxist-Leninist, hell, everyone from Enver Hoxha to CPGB have argued otherwise.

Quite specifically, the argument that Che was a Leninist falls down on the fact that his revolutionary approach was undeniably undemocratic, it sought to overthrow the established leadership and bring about socialism from above rather than below, this was no uprising and revolution of the proletariat by the proletariat - not even an emancipation of the masses with a revolutionary vanguard of the proletariat aligned with the peasantry, seeking to bring about a socialist democracy. Instead the very opposite occurred, after overthrowing the old order, a new leadership, as undemocratic as the last, took power. This remains undeniably conflicted with the principles of Leninism.

Today the Labour Party is not experiencing any entryism, people are joining as individuals, and in far greater numbers than the total of all the Trot organisations put together.

What is the part in Momentum in all of this then? innocent bystanders looking on bemused? I was talking to a friend last night who is active in labour party politics in Manchester City Council. He was talking last night about the exasperation presently being felt at having their dealings hijacked by what he referred to as 'hard left idiots' who proudly identified themselves as Momentum members. Oh... and I'll predict your next statement, and counter it by saying he's a good man, and far from being a 'red tory, or whatever this weeks term of abuse is, has been active in the Labour party since the 70's, and has the best interests of the working people of manchester in his blood. Its a commonly voiced frustration

So saying this differs from the 80's and the Militant tendency is just semantics. Its exactly the same. And the end result will also be exactly the same. Unopposed Tory rule until the party comes to its senses and boots the lot of them out But like Militant before them, Momentum don't actually care about this. They're far too insular and obsessed with their own pointless leftie flag waving, and denouncing everything and everybody in sight, while offering no real world answers or solutions.

US Senator McCarthy used very similar fear tactics of false claims of subversive infiltration to great effect in the Red Scare of 70 years ago.

You're seriously comparing this to the McCarthy purges? Sweet jesus! Your paranoia really knows no bounds, does it? Thats so utterly and completely preposterous, it actually scares me that people like you are deciding the future of the labour party. How is it hunkered down in your paranoid leftist echo chamber? You really should maybe come out once in a while and interact with the real world.

It's a very old right-wing ploy.

Yeah, yeah... isn't everything?

Yeah, yeah... isn't everything?

I hope you are saying that from the context of class consciousness

"what's wrong with a left wing agenda?"

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

everyone from Enver Hoxha to CPGB have argued otherwise

Enver Hoxha ! 😆 Like I give a monkeys what Enver Hoxha had to say about anything.

I will concede that Guevara did have some pro-Maoist tendencies, which is obviously at odds with my own extremely anti-Maoist views. However firstly by the time of his death the full catastrophic failure of Maoism had not been established (he died at the start of the Cultural Revolution) and secondly, see my previous post with regards to not all Marxist-Leninists having identical thoughts.

And btw I never in all my years as a CPGB member ever heard Guevara's commitment to Leninism challenged. Although to be fair he was never a hot topic of discussion, can't remember him ever being discussed.

Anyway this is completely off topic - a tactic much favoured by you ninfan. Suffice to say that I take issue with anyone who tries to claim that I'm not Marxist, please take note enfht.

.

And sorry binners, I see you've quoted me but I don't read your rambling rants these days, I'm unlikely to learn anything useful and debating anything with you on this thread is as pointless as debating anything with ninfan, big n daft, jambalaya, and all the other Tory voters, specially on the issue of the Labour Party.

Try posting a short post consisting of just a few sentences and I might bother 💡

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

Adding "fact" to an untrue statement doesn't make it true. FACT

Fair point, I was way too uncompromising in my assertion.

....but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?

Imagine that? A Corbyn voting, Marxist Momentum member dismissing everyone else's opinion as non-valid?

Whatever next?

Back to the bunker comrade, to keep fighting the good fight...

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Well done binners, I managed to read that - it was short and concise.

The Iron Lady's hidden sympathiser doth protest too much, methinks

The Labour Party is not experiencing any sort of "entryism",

But retains a SOH 😉

if it were it would be extraordinarily easy to identify.

What like same people, strategy, tactics......result.

Thought I'd check on here whilst having a cuppa, lo and behold- Binners is here [i]again[/i]! 😆

"So saying this differs from the 80's and the Militant tendency is just semantics. Its exactly the same. "

You're seriously comparing Momentum to the Militant tendency? Sweet Jesus! Your 'friend' obviously doesn't know what 'hard left' actually is; it certainly isn't Momentum!

Where does this 'friend' live, New Islington? 😉

"it actually scares me that people like you are deciding the future of the labour party"

You're free of course to go and join any party you chose, that closer fits your own political ideals. From what I've read here, your absolute hatred of the Left suggests you're not really someone who believes in the traditional core Labour values, as set out by Kier Hardie and the founding members of the Labour movement.

The LibDems are over there. Somewhere.

You're free of course to go and join any party you chose, that closer fits your own political ideals.

The irony continues.....Cuckoo, cuckoo......

I was talking to a friend last night who is active in labour party politics in Manchester City Council. He was talking last night about the exasperation presently being felt at having their dealings hijacked by what he referred to as 'hard left idiots'

It does make me wonder just what it is the labour party wants. Back in my student days I was pretty active in grassroots environmental politics and various other stuff (sitting up trees etc), and we used to come across the labour party a lot. I lost count of the number of times a labour activist or councillor tried to get me and my mates to join the party. They always used to say they need more young, passionate people in the party with new ideas, that instead of being on the sidelines protesting we could help create real change and be united against the real enemy (the tories, obviously). Yet now that appears to be happening they don't like it and seem to be doing their best turn away these new people (they're not all trots BTW, I know a lot, and they couldn't be more opposed to the socialist workers and their ilk).

Like I said, the labour party now has the largest membership of any political party in Europe. If they can't, or are unwilling, to find a way of harnessing that and turning it into electoral success then they might as well pack up and go home.

.but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?

Venezu...oh, actually....

Meanwhile in further Labour 'you couldn't make it up' news, according to Dianne Abbot, Jezza's absolutely woeful performance at PMQ's [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36853932 ]isn't his fault[/url]

"but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?"

Well, seeing as how most modern democracies employ various aspects of Socialism to varying degrees, such as free to use healthcare, education and legal representation etc, shall we instead look at those nations which don't?

Oh and Binners; I assume you're a fully paid up member of the Labour party, and will be voting at the leadership elections?

You assumed right. A first. I suppose in the same way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, it had to happen sooner or later.

So well done you!

Well, seeing as how most modern democracies employ various aspects of Socialism to varying degrees, such as free to use healthcare, education and legal representation etc, shall we instead look at those nations which don't?

Umm - Somalia has a pretty laissez-faire political system with minimal government interference in business.

So there you go. You have a chance to participate in a democratic process (not that there's actually a need for one right now, as the last one was fine!).

So what are you moaning about then?

I think what's really the issue here, is that you have suddenly realised you are in a minority when it comes to who Labour party members will vote for as leader, and you just don't like Corbyn. That's fine, but it's not about you, is it? It's about what the majority want. Because that's how democracy works. For all your wild ranting and plagiarised witticisms, there's really not much substance in your argument beyond 'I don't like Corbyn'. And then we're back to personality politics. Which is kind of why we're here talking about Corbyn and Labour. Personally, I'm not sure if Corbyn is the right person to lead Labour into the more distant future, but then I don't believe he thinks he is anyway. But I, and it seems hundreds of thousands of others, think he is the right person, right now, to lead Labour back towards where they should be on the political spectrum, and away from where the war criminal dragged it.