Jeremy Corbyn

Ernie Lynch 😉

how many incidents during the recent conservative party leadership change?

No idea, I've been too busy roaming the streets of Croydon in my Technical looking for suspected clog-dancing anti-Corbynista northerners

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Binners, who's your choice for labour leader?

Ernie Lynch

he's probably not a member of the party, just a supporter to vote for JC

having said that, these days you can't rule anything out, I'm sure the NEC can rewrite the rules to suit

Ernie will be one of the most politically active posters on STW as he does stuff other than sound of on here

I am only a member due to trade union affiliation.
I am not sure how I will vote

Binners, who's your choice for labour leader?

Andy Burnham. The only person in the Labour Party who actually gets what the problem is

You may have noticed, but he presently wouldn't touch this crock of shit with a shitty stick.

And who could blame him

Ernie and his three quid trots are about to make the Labour Party an electoral irrelevance.

If there was election tomorrow UKIP will take pretty much all the former 'labour heartlands'. The SNP will get the one seat they didn't get last time out. The lib dems will mop up the votes of centrists who won't vote Tory, but also aren't rabid commies. But the red flag will still fly over the10% of the population who went through the routine of popping their cross next to a labour name. The tories will win by a landslide, and set out doing what they bloody well like, privatising air, of whatever, totally unopposed, but the red flag will still fly over islington, so don't worry.... Everything will be fine....

Andy Burnham. The only person in the Labour Party who actually gets what the problem is

sorry Binners but he isn't up to it. He was made mince meat off in interviews by competent journalists during the previous leadership campaign. He has flip flopped so many times on policy he can be turned inside out in minutes

he's a nice guy, but not PM material

Ernie will be one of the most politically active posters on STW as he does stuff other than sound of on here

yes I remember him recounting the story of campaigning to get people to go to a Stop the War march, a march he himself wasn't going to

Ernie and his three quid trots are about to make the Labour Party an electoral irrelevance.

So when you said [i]"I'm probably not alone in either"[/i] as in here :

binners - Member

Just read them now Ernie. What a tool that bloke is. Ironically, I bet the beardy one is his MP. Well the article has led to me doing 2 things:

1. Cancelling my Guardian subscription. This was the final straw in their concerted 'Corbyn will usher in the end of days' bleating.
2. Registering as a labour supporter to vote for Corbyn

I'm probably not alone in either

Did you mean all the other "three quid trots" like you ?

Oh and it's now 25 quid. Still I'm sure you will be able to afford it, even if it means having a little less spending money on your holidays in Tuscany this year.

BTW did you reinstate your Guardian subscription?

yes I remember him recounting the story of campaigning to get people to go to a Stop the War march, a march he himself wasn't going to

Well that's news to me. Why didn't I go on the march......did I decide that I was supporting Blair going to war after all?

And what did this "campaigning" involve ?

Got a link?

So now I'm being slagged off for changing my opinion, given the evidence, over a twelve month period?

Well that pretty much sums up the Cult of the Beardy Messiah you appear to be a part of...

Neither pragmatism or compromise, and certainly not evidence, can be entertained

In the end I joined the party but voted for Andy, but I thought Corbyn would be an interesting experiment in democracy. I was optimistic.

I was wrong. The Guardian journalist was right. Corbyn's 'leadership has been an unmitigated disaster. As predicted. Giving the Tory party a clear run for 12 months, completely unopposed.

The 3 quid membership thing has also been an utter disaster, as the party has now been catastrophically taken over by the Militant Tendency thugocracy in a tragic 80's remake. With, somewhat inevitably, the same electoral results

Just one question for you comrade:

If everyone like me can be airily dismissed as being 'middle class, or class traitors, or whatever trotskyite term of abuse is in favour this week (pass the sack cloth comrade), and thus not entitled to an opinion, how on earth do you propose to get the parliamentary majority necessary to actually do anything?

Or as I suspect from both yourself, and your fellow travellers... is that not really the point?

Its an absolute catastrophe for our democracy IMHO. And its getting worse by the day

Well this has been an entertaining couple of pages; Ernie overstepping the mark,Jamby spouting made up pish and THM trying to push the same narrative about Scots hating the English. At least in an ever changing world we have some constants to hold on to. But hold on; JY being the voice of reason?

🙄

ernie_lynch - Member

I'm not criticising you for changing your mind, why shouldn't you?

binners - Member
So now I'm being slagged off for changing my opinion, given the evidence, over a twelve month period?

.

.

binners - Member

If everyone like me can be airily dismissed as being 'middle class, or class traitors, or whatever trotskyite term of abuse is in favour this week (pass the sack cloth comrade), and thus not entitled to an opinion

He says after dismissing every one who disagrees with him as middle-class lefties with no valid opinion :

binners - Member

It's the real deal THM. Ed Millibands parting gesture was to hand control of tge Labour Party to these ****-wits. He's actually done more damage to labour than Blair invading Iraq!

He's cast them out to electoral oblivion. If there's a leadership election tomorrow, these muppets will re-elect Corbyn. And they'll be really pleased with themselves. Because they're awful middle class lefties, who will stand by and moan about equal rights for one-armed, free range, organic hermaphrodite marriage, while the Tory party take a torch to workers rights
They are the very worst human beings on the planet

I think it deserves another one of these 🙄

duckman - Member

Well this has been an entertaining couple of pages; Ernie overstepping the mark...

Yes because challenging binners's hypocrisy and double standards isn't the done thing.

Binners has special ranting rights on here which allows him to say any ridiculous nonsense he fancies without being challenged.

Special rantnig rights? Mods - can I have that as my title please? 😆

Its al part of the grand Blairite conspiracy comrade

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At the risk of sounding repetitive....

[i]If everyone like me can be airily dismissed as being 'middle class, or class traitors, or whatever trotskyite term of abuse is in favour this week (pass the sack cloth comrade), and thus not entitled to an opinion, how on earth do you propose to get the parliamentary majority necessary to actually do anything?

Or as I suspect from both yourself, and your fellow travellers... is that not really the point?[/i]

Over to you comrade.....

You could write your answer on piece of paper, wrap it round a brick, and lob it through my window in the night if you like? I believe thats the more favoured, somewhat retro way of doing things in this brave new world

Do you lot talk to your friends like this?
I'd genuinely like to discuss this in an adult manner.
It's about time.
Any chance of giving the attacks and rants a miss for a while?

Ernie and his three quid trots are about to make the Labour Party an electoral irrelevance.

With respect, the centre-right Blairites have been successfully achieving this ever since it became apparent that the Emperor wasn't wearing any clothes towards the end of the Blair/Brown years. Their wanton self-destruction over Corbyn has just been the crowning glory really.

Policy and personality.
Do we have ANYONE who can appeal to swing voters, maintain credibility and appease both the members and the PLP?

[quote=Rusty Spanner ]Do you lot talk to your friends like this?
I'd genuinely like to discuss this in an adult manner.
It's about time.
Any chance of giving the attacks and rants a miss for a while?

Essentially this

yes I remember him recounting the story of campaigning to get people to go to a Stop the War march, a march he himself wasn't going to

But hold on; JY being the voice of reason?

I agree with rusty most of these "debates" degenerate into bickering and some folk just maintain a pary political line so entrenched even a spin Dr would not try and sell it - on both sides of the debate.

Its a mess and the country, especially at this time. needs an effective opposition for all our sakes for we will have tories running amok at this time.

I dont know how we get this but it sure as shit is not like this

We are in danger of becoming two bald men arguing over a comb

Do we have ANYONE who can appeal to swing voters, maintain credibility and appease both the members and the PLP?

I used to think it was unlikely a leftish platform coudl win as it relied on non voters getting off their arses and voting rather than geting swing voters.
What I do know is that the PLP operating like this is never going to win. Its not Corbyns fault it is the PLP parties fault but there still has to be a solution for the sake of the country as much as for the sae of the labour party

I have no great insight into what this will be

Perhaps corbyn losing the vote and then its all democratic and above board but it seems possible that his grassroots campaigners wont take that well

I dont know how I will vote in this election.

Andy Burnham. The only person in the Labour Party who actually gets what the problem is

You may have noticed, but he presently wouldn't touch this crock of shit with a shitty stick.

Really? He won't touch it because he's proven - twice - that he's not up to it. I really wanted him to win last year, then he opportunistically jumped on the anti-immigration and 'party of aspiration' bollocks fed to him by the media, instead of sticking with his own principles as he though that would win him the leadership. Then, like a slow-motion car crash, we saw him pathetically flip-flopping and looking like a startled cat when he realised that the party members weren't really in a blairite rennaissance mood, and instead wanted someone with some different ideas, and a smidgeon of integrity.

I have a lot of time for Burnham, and a fair amount of sympathy, but the way he ran his last leadership bid proved he is no better than the rest of the careerist metropolitan out-of-touch oxbridge spads. The tragedy of it was that had he stuck to his principles from the start, he probably would have won.

If the anti-Corbyn people seriously want to defeat him and his supporters, then they need a much better candidate than Eagle, Burnham or any of the other clones.

I think the Labour right's timing has been self destructive, but at the same time Corbin's leadership has seemed directionless, his 'new style' of political debate hasn't worked. He's failed to define what he stands for clearly so the Tories have done it for him, and the "communication" team around him want sacking!

There's clearly a public desire fo a socialist left party, the thousands that signed up for £3 arent all secret trots, and the Labour party need to realise this and pull together to defeat an increasingly right wing govt.

If the anti-Corbyn people seriously want to defeat him and his supporters, then they need a much better candidate than Eagle, Burnham or any of the other clones.

Though I did like her reaction to Boris being FS

I have a lot of time for Burnham, and a fair amount of sympathy, but the way he ran his last leadership bid proved he is no better than the rest of the careerist metropolitan out-of-touch oxbridge spads. The tragedy of it was that had he stuck to his principles from the start, he probably would have won.

Yup. Burnham had an open goal yet was soundly thrashed by a backbench no-hoper, so what possible reason is there to believe that he is the right person to lead the party?

By announcing he'd like to go for the Manchester Mayors position I think Andy has basically said that he has no desire to be leader. And who can blame him? Who the hell would want to take over this shambles?

Does anyone believe that either a new leader, or Corbyn being re-elected will bring a close to this factional feuding? Not a chance!

The labour party seems absolutely hell-bent on self destructing, and anyone with anything between their ears won't want to be anywhere near the controls when it does. Hence the political pygmies now facing off against each other.

Meanwhile the Tories appoint the most right-wing cabinet the country has seen, and from labour? Not even a squeak. The silence is deafening.....

Though I did like her reaction to Boris being FS

meanwhile the Tories appoint the most right-wing cabinet the country has seen, and fro labour? Not even a squeak. The silence is deafening.....

Does anyone believe that either a new leader, or Corbyn being re-elected will bring a close to this factional feuding? Not a chance!

Of course not. The split is coming, the only thing now is people positioning themselves to see who gets the [s]kids[/s] party resources.

By announcing he'd like to go for the Manchester Mayors position I think Andy has basically said that he has no desire to be leader. And who can blame him? Who the hell would want to take over this shambles?

I don't blame him for recognising his limitations: he's already shown - twice - that he's not up to the job.

...but when when were moderates ever going to be any good at ruthlessly executed coups?

(As in watch out for him. he's hard as nails - he's a moderate! I'm going to tell my big brother on you, and he's a moderate! Don't go over that side of the tracks, that's moderate territory...)

anyway I agree with all this:

I think the Labour right's timing has been self destructive, but at the same time Corbin's leadership has seemed directionless, his 'new style' of political debate hasn't worked. He's failed to define what he stands for clearly so the Tories have done it for him, and the "communication" team around him want sacking!

There's clearly a public desire fo a socialist left party, the thousands that signed up for £3 arent all secret trots, and the Labour party need to realise this and pull together to defeat an increasingly right wing govt

...and this would be fine if we had PR. But we don't. That means that coalitions (i.e. political parties with a spectrum of views) have to be formed before elections. Perennial rebel Corbyn ain't the man to do this (unless Hammas is involved I guess.)

I wasn't sure if that was just her embarrassment as she found out in the middle of saying "why haven't they given him a job" It's a bugger when someone ruins your punchline

Fair point and you may well be correct.

The silence is deafening.....

Anyone actually know who is the shadow foreign secretary and have they made any comment on the appointment of Boris?

Boris will either do really well or terribly and get fired, he is box office abroad with a profile that will open doors, ideal if you suddenly need to attract lots of investment into the UK

By all means hero worship him but it might be worth actually reading the press and seeing the international reaction

He is popularish here- in a comedy uncle sort of way here- abroad he is seen as a bit of a bumbling idiot

That view is at Jamby levels of ignoring the facts/wishful thinking/trolling

I do so admire the way you have Jambys skill in immediately contradicting yourself - he might get fired but he will definitely open doors as he is awesome.
Slow hand clap
Up your game will you

I realise that sounds rude but FFS get out the party political stance and lets discuss reality rather than your politics

Anyone actually know who is the shadow foreign secretary and have they made any comment on the appointment of Boris?

It's this lady: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30139832

ng to tell my big brother on you, and he's a moderate! Don't go over that side of the tracks, that's moderate territory

😀

It's nice that Boris, Corbyn and Thornberry all live in Islington, they can pop around for chats over tea and cakes!

binners - Member

Binners, who's your choice for labour leader?
Andy Burnham. The only person in the Labour Party who actually gets what the problem is

You may have noticed, but he presently wouldn't touch this crock of shit with a shitty stick.

And who could blame him

Ernie and his three quid trots are about to make the Labour Party an electoral irrelevance.

If there was election tomorrow UKIP will take pretty much all the former 'labour heartlands'. The SNP will get the one seat they didn't get last time out. The lib dems will mop up the votes of centrists who won't vote Tory, but also aren't rabid commies. But the red flag will still fly over the10% of the population who went through the routine of popping their cross next to a labour name. The tories will win by a landslide, and set out doing what they bloody well like, privatising air, of whatever, totally unopposed, but the red flag will still fly over islington, so don't worry.... Everything will be fine....

Fair enough, don't really see him uniting the party myself, but then again, I don't see anyone doing that. It's a battle for the silver wear this.

Biggest problem Labour have is that there isn't space for 2 right parties, ie Tories and Labour, so Labour is tearing it's self apart as there is a natural urge to fill the vacuum that is there in the left.

Tbh as I've said before a split is the best thing, then if any government can be formed, you end up with some left coalition. Much preferable to a centre right only Labour party imo. Where the voices of the spectrum can be heard and not silenced, Blair style.

we all knew that Ed Milliband was a useless plonker, but he was 'allowed' to have a crack at a General Election.

so here's a question:

Why is the labour party so keen to shoot itself in the foot, with all the infighting over Jezza, when the worst case prediction* is that he'll have to resign anyway within a year?

(*on the basis that we'll almost certainly have a GE within a year)

i've got a 3 step plan for Labour MP's:

1) get on with their *ing jobs, like the rest of us who didn't personally choose their boss.
2) let all the new members feel all warm and fuzzy - instead of unwelcome and pissed off
3) talk about actual issues for a *ing change.

Biggest problem for Labour is that they had been success positioning themselves just to the left of the tories, which essentially made them a centrist party, verging on centre right. As the Tories lurch further to the right, it becomes untenable for them to keep following them that way, which is what the PLP want to do, imo..

get on with their ****ing jobs, like the rest of us who didn't personally choose their boss.

One of the things I've learned over the years is that if your boss is useless at his job, then it doesn't matter how hard you work, eventually it will end badly.

get on with their ****ing jobs, like the rest of us who didn't personally choose their boss.

With any job, theres also the issue of what you ultimately hope to achieve. Surely the goal of any opposition party is to win the next election? So If you know full well that theres precious little chance of that happening - in fact, no chance whatsoever - with the present management in charge, you can kind of see the problem with motivation, and the desire to put some new management in place, sharpish

The problems in the Labour party are more fundamental that a management change.

They are indeed. Blairs legacy of stuffing the party full of careerest yes men has well and truly come home to roost. But you've got to start somewhere

Biggest problem for Labour is that they had been success positioning themselves just to the left of the tories, which essentially made them a centrist party, verging on centre right.

When was that - when they were in power, before or after?

As the Tories lurch further to the right

Missed the news this week 😉 ?

it becomes untenable for them to keep following them that way, which is what the PLP want to do, imo..

😀

Before, during and after. Thought i explained that clear enough.

Yip, basically the yahoo right of the tories just consoldated control.

😛 Let me know if you're having any more trouble.

Say what you think THM 😉

ctk - Member
Say what you think THM

Would be nice if he did for a change. 😆

Surely the goal of any opposition party is to win the next election?

You silly posho, binners!

It's all about principles. And sniping from the sidelines, safely tucked up in the welcome echo-chamber embrace of your comrades in the PFJ.

Surely the goal of any opposition party is to win the next election?

Excellent. What happens on day 2?

ransos - Member
Excellent. What happens on day 2?

Their Boris walks out? 🙂

oldnpastit - Member
One of the things I've learned over the years is that if your boss is useless at his job, then it doesn't matter how hard you work, eventually it will end badly.

And the thing I learned as a boss was if you go into a situation where your staff are too busy with internal politics to do their job properly the only answer is to clear them out and start afresh, keeping no rotten apples to spoil the new ones.

Excellent. What happens on day 2?

Then 'The Programme' begins.....

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Oh dear news keeps getting worse for COrbyn, with his Shadow Justice Minister today coming out to back Owen Smith. Below is from the Guardian but the story is also on the other main news sites.

Cardiff Central MP Jo Stevens, one of Jeremy Corbyn’s most loyal backers, has switched allegiance and called on party members to back rival leadership candidate Owen Smith.

In an email to Labour members, Stevens wrote: “During the past two weeks it has become painfully obvious that we have been unable to fulfil the very basic day to day operation as the official opposition in Parliament. We cannot present ourselves as a government in waiting without leadership and a leadership team that commands the respect and support of not only members....but Labour voters and potential Labour voters.”

She added: “I want to let you know I will be supporting Owen Smith.”

The death threats and house bricks will be on there way already, no doubt

It's all about principles. And sniping from the sidelines, safely tucked up in the welcome echo-chamber embrace of your comrades in the PFJ

you actually have to represent something other than just the desire to rule [ at any cost].

Personally I dont want any political party conducting themselves like vite leave to and peddling fear and half truths but i think its almost inevitable that this is what will happen.

There is really nothing wrong with standing for parliament based on principles OTHER than the desire to say anything to win the vote and gain power

Thats all very well. Everyone slags Blair off for apparently doing this - selling out the labour party to win power - yet imagine what this country would presently look like if instead of Brown and Blair, we;d have had 13 years of the Tories instead?

Makes you think eh? Or maybe not....

Interesting choice of word - "success"

We have centrist politics and have done for a long long time - hence the need to "pretend" that parties are R or LW

May has just shifted the bus back in the centre of centre - no lurch in evidence

Meanwhile others are driving the bus into an electoral wasteland having misunderstood why people jumped off originally

Junky, principles are a good thing, but largely pointless if you're unable to do anything about them because you're in opposition.

we;d have had 13 years of the Tories instead?

I doubt it would be any different to today though. Politicians don't have any real control over anything.

In which case, why don't we sack the whole thing off and just get Tesco to sort the logistics?

"I doubt it would be any different to today though. Politicians don't have any real control over anything."

This.

Did the SNP tax and spend when they got the chance?

[quote=CaptainFlashheart ]Junky, principles are a good thing, but largely pointless if you're unable to do anything about them because you're in opposition.

Its also pretty pointless to abandon them to then get into power and then just be like the Tories anyway

I dont see a shit lot different [ after the first month in power] between what Tony?gordon did and what Tories do/did.

I understand that politics has an element of a popularity contents but its mainly about presenting a vision to the populace of a better place and seeing whether they will accept or reject it

Ironically the levae vote showed that a reasonable % are rather pissed of with the status quo they have however just voted for even more of the status quo/austerity/right wing tory policies as some folk went all populist to win and sold them a big pile of horseshit that was never going to happen

In which case, why don't we sack the whole thing off and just get Tesco to sort the logistics?

I dont see a shit lot different [ after the first month in power] between what Tony?gordon did and what Tories do/did

So what would you say to the point that if Ed had beaten Dave last year, we wouldn't be headed out of the EU?

All parties are still the same though, right? Nothing much changes. They're all the same...

Oh.....

I've got so exasperated by the whole thing I've stopped paying attention, and as I'm not a labour party member to a large extent there's no point spending time thinking about it till they've voted.... but the impression I get is that Owen Smith seems the most conventionally electable of the three and would probably be the best bet for a functioning opposition.

"So what would you say to the point that if Ed had beaten Dave last year, we wouldn't be headed out of the EU?"

We're not headed out of the EU, though. We've set up a talking shop to kick it into the long grass with people in place to take the blame for it not being possible.

The EU debacle confirms 5thElem's point AFAIC. There's no freedom o movement, even when its specifically requested in a referendum.

So what would you say to the point that if Ed had beaten Dave last year, we wouldn't be headed out of the EU?

Problem with principles is that you are talking about parties with 200-300 people in them, even with core values some will be more or less willing to compromise on certain principles. That's why leadership becomes important.

You're assuming leaving the EU will make much difference. It won't.

I'll make a difference to our influence in Europe.

yet imagine what this country would presently look like if instead of Brown and Blair

Imagine what Iraq would look like...

Indulging in whataboutery like this is pretty pointless. The whole point is that politics isn't or shouldn't be like a sport, where you pin your allegiance to a particular colour and then get bragging rights when you win. Democracy relies on their being sufficient distance between the different parties to offer a choice to people. If people don't agree, then the job of politicians is to persuade them of their case, not simply change their principles to fit what they think will win them the prize. Personally, I can't quite see the point in a labour government that looks, sounds, and acts like the tories. If that's what people want, they should vote tory.

I'll make a difference to our influence in Europe.

Will it?

There's a case that it's more likely to be like being a loyal customer of an insurance company. The loyal customers get the worst deals, the rate tarts get the best. If it's all down to horse trading, membership itself has little value in terms of influence.

Did the SNP tax and spend when they got the chance?

Did they f.....!!

Of course this left of centre party (cough) did advocate a corporate tax rate war to compete with rUK. Bloody LWers 😉

C'pain as i posted yesterday, Owen Jones (blimey I am quoting him now) put it simply

Socialism without power is slogans: [b]a mild irritation at worst, a source of bemusement at best[/b] to a Conservative government that can do as it wishes. Principle and power are not mutually exclusive. Corbyn’s team and his opponents both have to demonstrate how.

I'll make a difference to our influence in Europe.

So what would you say to the point that if Ed had beaten Dave last year, we wouldn't be headed out of the EU?

All parties are still the same though, right? Nothing much changes. They're all the same...

Oh

I dont think leaving the EU, if it happens, will fundamentally change the distribution of wealth or power or inequity or social aspiration within this country. It wont be that big a change though the general GDP wealth may alter.

On a meta basis we will know but in our day to day interaction **** all will have changed.

spending on health doubled when labour were in power, having flatlined under tories for years before and after.

They're really not all the same.

Socialism without power is slogans: a mild irritation at worst, a source of bemusement at best to a Conservative government that can do as it wishes

spending on health doubled when labour were in power, having flatlined under tories for years before and after.

They're really not all the same.

...and another thing. Calling anyone who wants corbyn gone a 'blairite' or 'red tory' (ffs) is annoying.

fwiw I'm actually reasonable utiopian in terms of the sort of society I'd like to see. In a PR system I'd probably vote left of corbyn. But being pragmatic, I prefer better to worse, and that means a party and policies which is electable and are enactable in the system we're in right now. Red ****ing tory...

spending on health doubled when labour were in power, having flatlined under tories for years before and after.

They're really not all the same.

Well yes, but they didn't create money, as TB says in "Journey" they simply overspent. We're paying it back now with cuts.

So on average we're about the same.

The economy had picked up and Labour continued with the policies they'd inherited. That left more money for health. You can't look at things in isolation.

When tories have been in power in times of economic growth they've not doubled spending on the NHS, when labour were in power they did.

Labour behaved differently to tories - are you seriously going to argue against this?

Of course there are differences[ as there are between anything not identical] but in the main there is not

there is a difference between two road bikes but they are basically the same

What I want is the difference one gets between a road bike and MTB , they are designed to different things.

I'm not talking bikes, I'm talking doubling spending on the NHS.