Shimano CUES

Goodbye Deore? Hello Shimano CUES!

by 161

Big news for mid-tier mountain bikes as Shimano CUES enters the chat and kills off Deore (well, Deore 12-speed will remain), Tiagra, Alivio, Sora and other familiar groupsets.

Shimano CUES

No more Deore 9-11 speed. No more… er, any of the existing MTB and road groupsets below SLX and 105 in fact.

The new Shimano CUES marque replaces Deore, Alivio, Acera and Altus on the off-road side of things. And replaces Tiagra, Sora and Claris on the road scene.

1x

No-more trickle-down

The fundamental idea of Shimano CUES is that lower-end groupsets are no longer ‘trickle down’ versions of tech that used to be XTR or Dura-Ace twenty to thirty years ago. CUES stuff is a relative blank slate.

CUES drivetrains are designed first with the everyday and/or beginner rider in mind first and foremost. Qualities such as simplicity, cross-compatibility, and durability are how Shimano are explaining CUES. Not racing, lightweight or innovation.

Multiple CUES

While on the one hand CUES is ostensibly simpler. It isn’t the case that’s it’s all just one all-encompassing CUES drivetrain. There are multiple CUES drivetrains, each with a number series attached eg. Shimano CUES U6000.

There will be 9-speed CUES, 10-speed CUES and 11-speed CUES.

While there will still be front mechs on some CUES drivetrains intended for trekking and road use, for mountain biking, CUES is 1x specific. Chainrings are all narrow-wide retaining designs. Almost all the rear mechs will have clutches in them (the lowest tier CUES U4000 rear mech will just have a much-stronger spring).

MTB = CUES U600

To briefly go into the number series, U8000 is essentially XT for trekking bikes and as such probably won’t be encountered by MTBers. It’s the U6000 CUES stuff that will be the main stuff. If you know you’re Shimano numbers, you can kinda get the vibe that Deore M6000 has been replaced by U600.

RD-U8020

Shimano appear to be being nice (or just realistic) and state that CUES products will work just fine with third party components, provided they are the same speed (9, 10 or 11). This means that bike brands, and members of the public, can spec a non-Shimano cassette in their otherwise CUES-equipped bikes.

Interestingly, during their presentation Shimano explained that their 11-speed stuff was theoretically the most durable of all the speeds they produce. Something to do with having the most surface area interacting between chain and teeth.

Look away 12-speeders

At this point all you 11-speed hold-outs can punch the air and look smug. And all you 12-speeders out there can sigh, roll your eyes and/or curse.

9-speed CUES will offer 11-46T cassettes. 10-speed is 11-48T. 11-speed is 11-50T.

All CUES shifters will actually pull the same amount of cable per actuation; it’s just that the 11-speed shifter will have 11 clicks, the 10 has 10 clicks and the 9 has 9 clicks.

At the cranks there’s not much to report. External cup Hollowtech II bottom brackets remain. With good ol’ square taper bringing up the very lowest CUES tiers.

LG700 cassette

Linkglide

Remember the more-durable Shimano Linkglide drivetrain parts that were announced a couple of years ago? Shimano CUES goes hand-in-hand with Linkglide. Yep, the CUES ‘roadmap’ is why Linkglide wasn’t produced in 12-speed flavour.

If you remember the Linkglide launch you may remember the flak that the LG600 cassette got for being rather portly (780g claimed weight). Shimano have ditched that cassette. The new LG (Linkglide) cassettes are not really any appreciably different to their HG (Hyperglide) siblings.

At this point we think it’s worth pointing out that Linkglide offers the smoothest shifting of ANY Shimano groupset, XTR/Dura Ace including. It also no longer requires the rider to back off the gas during shifts. Just keep the power down and it just… shifts. Linkglide also claims to be significantly stronger and more durable than non-Linkglide components.

Although closely allied to CUES, and definitely relevant, Linkglide stuff will not have the same series numbers as CUES stuff. Linkglide items are all prefixed with LG (LG700, LG400, LG300 and so on). As mentioned, there is currently no Deore-equivalent Linkglide cassette. The LG700 cassette is the nearest (which is essentially SLX-ish level Linkglide).

New hubs!

Tacked on at the end of the CUES presentation was a quick look at some new hubs. The CUES hubs feature various departures from Shimano’s usual way of doing them. Modular axles and freehubs ie. can be converted from QR to bolt-thru, Microspline to Hyperglide freehub).

And… cartridge bearings! Shimano were at pains to point out that they haven’t just relented from their cup-and-cone dogma and slapped cartridge bearings in. The (TC600/500) CUES hubs have labyrinth and contact seals in them to make them better sealed than most cartridge bearing designs. There are also twin double-row bearings in the freehub part of the axle.

Some press release snippets

  • “Featuring our high-durability LINKGLIDE technology, SHIMANO CUES offers smoother shifting, more durable components, and standardizes compatibility across a wide range of categories.”
  • “By consolidating our 9-, 10-, and 11-speed component ranges with interchangeable components, including common derailleur pulleys, cassette sprockets and chains, simplifies mid-tier bikes.”
  • “The lineup features unified sprocket spacing across our 9-, 10-, and 11-speed drivetrains, so that components can be intermixed across a wider range of user groups and riding styles.”
  • “With taller and thicker cassette teeth, providing additional surface area this mitigates the chain from skipping and distributes pedaling forces to prevent premature wear due to shifts from novice riders.”
  • “Extended Component Lifespan – Cassettes and chains built to withstand consistent daily wear and tear of both analog and high-torque e-bike use.”

More info to follow

All-in-all, CUES appears to be great… for anyone using less than 12-speeds on their mountain bike.

We’re still finding out more about CUES (including UK prices and what, if any, cross compatibility with 12-speed stuff there is) and hope to bring you some more info – and real-world photos of the U600 stuff – very shortly.

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Orange Switch 6er. Stif Squatcher. Schwalbe Magic Mary Purple Addix front. Maxxis DHR II 3C MaxxTerra rear. Coil fan. Ebikes are not evil. I have been a writer for nigh on 20 years, a photographer for 25 years and a mountain biker for 30 years. I have written countless magazine and website features and route guides for the UK mountain bike press, most notably for the esteemed and highly regarded Singletrackworld. Although I am a Lancastrian, I freely admit that West Yorkshire is my favourite place to ride. Rarely a week goes by without me riding and exploring the South Pennines.

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Home Forums Goodbye Deore? Hello Shimano CUES!

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 161 total)
  • Goodbye Deore? Hello Shimano CUES!
  • 1
    thols2
    Full Member

    All CUES shifters will actually pull the same amount of cable per actuation; it’s just that the 11-speed shifter will have 11 clicks, the 10 has 10 clicks and the 9 has 9 clicks.

    If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

    If the CUES 9-speed cassettes are compatible with legacy 9-speed cassettes, then they would need a different derailleur pull ratio than 10 or 11-speed CUES, which would make no sense. So, Shimano have just dropped the legacy stuff and rationalized their drivetrains by removing sprockets from the 11-speed cassettes to create 8, 9, or 10-speed drivetrains, along with shifters that have fewer clicks. Is that correct?

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    “ So, Shimano have just dropped the legacy stuff and rationalized their drivetrains by removing sprockets from the 11-speed cassettes to create 8, 9, or 10-speed drivetrains, along with shifters that have fewer clicks. Is that correct?”

    Yes.

    lovewookie
    Full Member

    If that is true, then it would be reasonable to think that SRAM mtb 11 and 12 speed mechs and shifters could also be mixed and matched on cues cassettes, should you wish.

    thenorthwind
    Full Member

    If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

    I don’t think you are. Derailleurs will be different to move a different distance depending on speed, but for the same cable pull per click from the shifter.

    1
    nickc
    Full Member

    This is groupset designed to stop Shimano haemorrhaging money to SRAM in the OEM market*. Why would they bother making it backwards compatable with years-out-of-date product that they no longer want to sell? Makes zero commercial sense.

    Here’s one name groupset for all your below premium bikes; you can spec however many gears you want, mix and match and it will all work together, even e-bikes.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Perfect for someone (me) who maintains bikes for someone at work who is mechanically challenged. I will be suggesting a gear group upgrade when the derailleurs next die.

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    There’s a couple of good articles on CUES and LinkGlide on NSMB. The cassette spacing and cable pull is the same on all the speeds, the mech just moves farther to cover the wider cassettes as you add more speeds.

    You could use an 11 speed mech and shifter with an 8, 9, or 10 speed cassette just by setting the limit screws to a narrower range. Or 11 speed shifter with 8, 9, or 10 speed mech. Just need to ensure that the mech speeds is greater than or equal to the cassette, and the shifter to the mech likewise.

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    @sirromj By the sound of it there will be narrower range ‘road’ cassettes with the same spacing though? (Not stated but definitely implied if this is superseding Tiagra etc. too)

    They’ve twigged that not everyone is impressed by “moar gearz” and I think the sweet spot is going to be 10 or 11 speed for lots of punters.

    I’ve got 1×11 XT and frankly I don’t miss the 12th gear I haven’t got. What would be nice is a 34t chainring rather than a 32 but that’s a frame limitation.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    as for bringing back front mechs to all bikes, single ring drivetrains have made packaging full suspension gubbins much easier.

    Not everyone rides full suspension, moreso at the “affordable” end of the market.

    If I’m understanding this correctly, the derailleurs will be the same and the shifters will pull the same amount of cable. That would mean that a 9-speed cassette is just an 11-speed cassette with two fewer sprockets and a narrower overall width. That would mean that CUES 9-speed is not backwards compatible with legacy 9-speed because the cassette spacing is different, the derailleurs are different, and the cable pull is different.

    I don’t think you are. Derailleurs will be different to move a different distance depending on speed, but for the same cable pull per click from the shifter.

    Nope, I thought that as well but from the NSMB article[/url]:

    All LinkGlide cassettes from CUES U4000 to XT M8130 use the same cassette pitch (cog spacing) and the classic HG interface for maximum intercompatibility.

    It would appear that we’re in more of a Shimano 5/6/7/8 type situation where the cassette gets bigger as the speeds increase.

    On that note, it sounds like we could see a short block Saint update in the future.

    None of this will be compatible with HG systems but:

    Shimano will continue to manufacture HG drivetrain components for the legions of bicycles out in the wild, and they do have an excellent reputation for supporting legacy drivetrains.

    So not all bad news. And I bet there will be a Problem Solver or workaround before long.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    They’ve twigged that not everyone is impressed by “moar gearz” and I think the sweet spot is going to be 10 or 11 speed for lots of punters.

    You’ve a lot more faith than I that a business is interested in selling you what you want to buy not making you buy what they want to sell.

    I might be wrong of course but this to me looks like an exercise in making you want and pay for SLX up not in making a it easier to buy down.

    It’ll be great for OEM knocking out thousands of bikes a week “CUES” gears because they can put broadly the same thing on every model and you’ll not be able to tell immediately what you’re getting, and an upgrade to 10 or 11 is comparatively easy to sell if it’s just a new cassette so not much cost to the OEM but more margin.
    For after market? I guess you’ll see deore etc gone long before CUES starts to be easily available.

    and they do have an excellent reputation for supporting legacy drivetrains.

    Much of which I think we’ll rapidly find is predicated on trickle down meaning 2010 xtr “is” 2022 altus.

    finbar
    Free Member

    I want Shimano CUES on a YT Tues.

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    I’ve got 1×11 XT and frankly I don’t miss the 12th gear I haven’t got. What would be nice is a 34t chainring rather than a 32 but that’s a frame limitation.

    12 speed cassette with a 10t smallest cog would sort that for you

    2
    Mister-P
    Free Member

    the 11-speed shifter will have 11 clicks, the 10 has 10 clicks and the 9 has 9 clicks

    11 speed will have 10 clicks, 10 has 9 clicks and 9 has 8 clicks. I’ll get my anorak.

    chakaping
    Full Member

    Sorry if I missed this, but have we established if the 11sp stuff has the same pull ratio as existing 11sp Shimano MTB bits?

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    105 won’t be Di2 only – its going 12 speed mechanical according to accidentally released info: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-105-12-speed-mechanical/

    I’m not taking any chances though – it’s time to stock up on 11 speed 105.

    Phew!

    The concept of their “entry level” groupset costing £1700 alone was just bonkers.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Or 11 speed shifter with 8, 9, or 10 speed mech.

    For several years I was using a 9 speed MTB mech (XTR970) with 10 speed shifters (Ultegra 6700). That was an easy way of using a wider-range cassette on a road/touring bike.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    That’s what’s on my Escapade… Saint 9 speed mech with 10 speed 105 shifters. Only “just” works to be honest.

    Anyway, still looks like a lot of stuff that doesn’t necessarily work together hanging under one name. One freehub and one chain width is very welcome though, that alone simplifies things a lot spares and repairs wise. They also happen to be the best freehub and chain option we’ve had for everyday use.

    3
    Ben_Haworth
    Full Member

    Am hoping to see the CUES stuff – and have a fuller explanation! – this weekend at Icebike show. Will update y’all Monday with any luck.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    The concept of their “entry level” groupset costing £1700 alone was just bonkers.

    That 105 is seen as entry level is bonkers, see also deore.

    They’re aren’t the entry level, heck below 105 there’s at least sora, claris and tiagra on the road side before you start getting to the actual entry level stuff.

    This is also a big part of why we keep moaning about the price of stuff – we’ve rather forgotten that deore etc is high end enthusiast kit so moan it doesn’t come at entry level pricing.

    endoverend
    Full Member

    Am confused. So when my XT 11 spd cassette wears out, will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette? It sounds good in performance and durability but it is very heavy… is the future that if the rider wants lightweight stuff road & mtb they have to go up to 12spd?

    JefWachowchow
    Free Member

    Quietly hoping the wide range 9 speed cassette will be compatible with my old 9 speed XTR shifter, and the 10 speed with Mrs Wachowchow’s 10sp Saint shifter. Hopefully breathing some life into the older spares box parts.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette?

    Which will “only” work with LG chains and rings I belive, and possibly* not your current 11speed mech and Shifter either.

    Quietly hoping the wide range 9 speed cassette will be compatible with my old 9 speed XTR shifter, and the 10 speed with Mrs Wachowchow’s 10sp Saint shifter. Hopefully breathing some life into the older spares box parts.

    Unlikely if as suggested, the 9 and 10 are physically narrower blocks.

    *as yet pure conjecture, I’m inclined to think the spacing will probably change and I’m not sure if a 50t fits the mech as is (happy to be corrected on that)

    chakaping
    Full Member

    Am confused. So when my XT 11 spd cassette wears out, will I eventually only be able to buy 11spd in this linkglide stuff and end up with a 750g cassette?

    It’s replacing the lower end ranges, so they’ll probably still be making XT parts in 11sp.

    Sunrace do very good 11sp cassettes as well though FYI.

    thols2
    Full Member

    Unlikely if as suggested, the 9 and 10 are physically narrower blocks.

    *as yet pure conjecture, I’m inclined to think the spacing will probably change and I’m not sure if a 50t fits the mech as is (happy to be corrected on that)

    The article says that the shifters will pull the same amount of cable per shift, just have a different number of clicks. If the derailleurs are using the same pull ratio, then the cassettes must have the same spacing between sprockets, so a 10 speed cassette is just an 11 speed with one sprocket removed.

    It would make no sense to have different pull ratios on the derailleurs. It’s much cheaper to just make them all the same, just like how 8-speed and 9-speed derailleurs are compatible. Then, all you need to do to change the number of gears is to make a minor change to the shifter to limit how many clicks are available, remove sprockets from the cassette, and add a spacer in place of the missing sprockets. Much cheaper way to do it.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    It’s replacing the lower end ranges, so they’ll probably still be making XT parts in 11sp.

    Whilst there’s no info to suggest otherwise I’m not sure how long that will bear out, as is xt 11 is obsolete. It makes sense to continue to produce it whilst it can be up sold and you’re producing current compatible 11speed kit so the tooling, machine time, space etc is there for 11speed anyway.

    As I read the releases, with the advent of cues all the 11 speed mtb kit that is current will stop being produced. At that point how long does it make commercial sense to produce (now 4 year old) kit simply to support people not buying the stuff you want to sell?

    Historically they’ve been very good at continuing 7 8 9 10 etc but they have still been producing current stuff in the same speeds.

    If history is anything to go by you’ll be safe for many years but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the back catalogue rationalised in due course off the back of this.
    (genuinely no idea by how long after friction shifters stopped being current on low end groups did they stop making them for anything at all?)

    asbrooks
    Full Member

    CUES

    I could be wrong, looking at the images for the cranksets, looks like they have dropped the HTII cranksets at deore level.

    benman
    Free Member

    I wonder how its going to affect GRX. As that seemed to rely on legacy 11 speed HG cassettes etc.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    I wonder how its going to affect GRX

    Grxt and grxtr coming soon…

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    @asbrooks Were they ever HT2 though? HT2 is the hollow-forged crank arm and the external BB Deore cranks on the Hybrid of Doom definitely aren’t that.

    Which will “only” work with LG chains and rings I belive, and possibly* not your current 11speed mech and Shifter either.

    At least they’ve not gone to 10mm pitch chain or anything.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    The article says that the shifters will pull the same amount of cable per shift, just have a different number of clicks. If the derailleurs are using the same pull ratio, then the cassettes must have the same spacing between sprockets, so a 10 speed cassette is just an 11 speed with one sprocket removed.

    Pull ratio is a derailleur characteristic. It’s the ratio of the movement of the jockey wheels horizontally to the amount of cables pulled. This will be the same all rear derailleurs in the system

    What will vary is the blocks and shifters. These will need to match. But the block spacing can vary between speeds. A click on a 9 shifter can be set to pull slightly more cable than a click on a 10 speed shifter for example.

    So did the article say same pull ratio or same cable pulled per click?

    chakaping
    Full Member

    GRX is a different range, which seems to cover a big variety of bikes from mid-range to high end using a relatively small amount of options.

    Don’t see it being affected by this, but might be due an update soon-ish.

    2
    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    That 105 is seen as entry level is bonkers, see also deore.

    They’re aren’t the entry level, heck below 105 there’s at least sora, claris and tiagra on the road side before you start getting to the actual entry level stuff.

    6 Vs 1/2 Doz.

    Yes Deore/Tiagra has always been perfectly good and with a few awfull exceptions has generally always got better. And is the sensible choice if you’re on a budget.

    But SLX/105 was always the point where you got 90% of the good trickle down stuff like aluminum cassette spiders, indexed front shifting (105), aluminum chainrings, metal shifter internals. It was the ‘entry level’ to ‘proper’ cycling.

    This is also a big part of why we keep moaning about the price of stuff – we’ve rather forgotten that deore etc is high end enthusiast kit so moan it doesn’t come at entry level pricing.

    Ohh, the only reason for Deore to now appear to be inspirationally priced is that we’ve (largely self inflicted) shafted the value of our currency over the last 15-20 years via low interest rates and Brexit.

    2
    ampthill
    Full Member

    I’ve got it

    It’s same cassettes spacing, same pull ratio and same cable pulled per click

    lovewookie
    Full Member

    I could be wrong, looking at the images for the cranksets, looks like they have dropped the HTII cranksets at deore level.

    Deore has always been 2 peice, not hollowtech, external BB type. Cues is 2 peice also, external BB etc. however it may be, maybe, that it now attached via driveside rather than non driveside.

    sillyoldman
    Full Member

    Aye – Deore hasn’t been Hollowtech since the old Octalink cranks. All 24mm axle/outboard bearing variants have been solid forged arms.
    Look to still be fixed DS/removable NDS. The pic with the bolted DS would be the entry Sq Taper model I’d imagine.

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    I dont believe they’re dropping Deore either, I think its Deore 5100 thats become CUES U6000, Deore M6100 remains. Cues is essentially a rejig of a mismatched group of groupsets including everything linkglide, Deore 4100 and 5100, Alivio and lots of non series bits.

    asbrooks
    Full Member

    Ah, what I meant was the external BB, possible square taper BB. Hadn’t realised that deore wasn’t TH. Everyday’s a school day!
    Deore M6100 remains? oh my head hurts..

    chakaping
    Full Member

    Deore M6100 remains.

    Yeah I’m sure I read in another report that Shimano’s 12sp MTB lineup is remaining intact.

    Might just be the STW write-up which incorrectly says everything below SLX is being culled.

    From Pinkbike:

    There will still be a Deore 12-speed Hyperglide+ group, and everything beneath it will be part of the CUES family.

    It was a bit nuts having three varieties of Deore, If we’re honest.

    😀

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Sorry if I missed this, but have we established if the 11sp stuff has the same pull ratio as existing 11sp Shimano MTB bits?

    It does not. The NSMB article has more info.

    Whilst there’s no info to suggest otherwise I’m not sure how long that will bear out

    Once again, all in the NSMB article.


    @finbar
    why would you choose to put CUES on a YT Tues beyond marketing cues or is this just an elaborate trolling ruse?

    chakaping
    Full Member

    It does not.

    Cheers.

    No biggie anyway, my current Shimano-ish 11sp setups are working fine.

    🙂

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