[Closed] Yesterdays shooting & todays protest.

I don't think we know the full facts yet, so it is a bit premature to be making a judgement either way.

V premature to be making ANY conclusions.

This thread may not end well, but fwiw I believe we are a long way from being America.

Obviously anyone who wasn't at the scene at the time has no actual knowledge of what happened.

I've known several firearms officers, they were all very aware that they were expected to make an instantaneous life or death decision every day they were deployed. It's amazing that fewer people aren't shot by our Police if you look at it objectively.

Nobody's saying much, tiny protest, all quiet really but media would obviously like a story about chaos in the streets. Classy as usual.

Even by STW standards you'll be going some to argue [b]anything [/b]from this story right now.

EDIT: Too late, touchpaper lit.. 🙂

I'm not making conclusions, mealy asking why the police need to defend themselves against unlawful killing proceedings when anyone with a gun is breaking the law & should expect to be challenged.

I agree with bear, no need to jump the gun on this. Anything could have gone down.

I'm not making conclusions, mealy asking why the police need to defend themselves against unlawful killing proceedings when anyone with a gun is breaking the law & should expect to be challenged.

There is always an inquiry after a police shooting, no? So what's different here?

Even by STW standards you'll be going some to argue anything from this story right now.

Still, ten pages at least. Maybe more if the Argualympians are still awake.

As someone whose had firearms training - I know things can go from normal to batshit in the blink of an eye.

Not a job I ever wanted.

Unfortunately having a gun in this country while illegal isn't enough for the Police to be able to shoot you. The officer must justify they felt a risk to theirs or another life.

It's right that we have due process around these events and they are investigated properly but the officers should not face being treated like criminals unless they are proven to have killed someone illegally.

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this investigation.

Jamie - Member

There is always an inquiry after a police shooting, no? So what's different here?

Protests & mobs attacking the police, just like in the good old USA.

 

One thing of note, bloody good grouping.

On the news yesterday someone was saying that over the last year there were some 14,000 incidents involving officers with firearms, but only 7 where the weapon was discharged.
I may have got that second figure a bit wrong, but anyone suggesting that we're getting as bad as 'Murica really ought to go away and have a serious talk with themselves.

i will not be adding my obviously racist views to this thread.

mealy asking why the police need to defend themselves against unlawful killing proceedings when anyone with a gun is breaking the law & should expect to be challenged.

* who knows what happened in this incident we need more details.

The fact this is even on the national news confirms we are nothing like America.

Hardly any details have been released yet so its way too early to speculate on the legitimacy of the police actions.

However, even the Guardian, buried among the usual racebaiting and identity politics, identified the deceased as a "drugs kingpin".

The phrase "live by the sword, die by the sword" (or gun in this case) holds true for such people.

Ripples in a stream, but I lost all respect for armed police in 1983

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Stephen_Waldorf ]Seems legit[/url]

Nobody's saying much, tiny protest, all quiet really but media would obviously like a story about chaos in the streets. Classy as usual.

This.

The Daily Wail is far from complementary towards him.
Sounds a pretty nasty piece of Shite if they're to be believed.*
*Yes, I do realise the irony in that...

And as Flashy said, yup, someone's sites where well zeroed.

Always a handy tale

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3974461.stm

One thing of note, bloody good grouping.

I dunno, he's dropped a shot low, could be the cold barrel or could be his initial round as the weapon came up.

Grouping at 25m standards should be about 50mm so he would have failed his test.

4 people fatally shot by UK police in 2016, 23 in the last 10 years. 957 killed by US police in 2016, that is an educated estimate as the various forces are not obliged to submit any data. Every fatal shooting in the UK is automatically referred to the IPCC. We are NOTHING like the US, thankfully.

This case was inflamed simply because the police used the words "pre-planned operation" and then someone got shot. Ergo, they planned to shoot him (of course they didn't), but that's what people are thinking.

There's been a shift of sorts in the last 10 years, time was if the Police saw a gun and felt threatened they could fire - now if they had intelligence to suggest the suspect had a gun and they move in a threatening way - for example moving forward violently in their seat as if reaching for something or perhaps because they've just been boxed in and come to a sudden stop they can fire. There will be an enquiry because that's what they do, but the law / rules are fairly clear - intelligence however good or bad says armed, offer feels threatened (impossible or close to, to disprove) leathal force - 3 shots, 6 including 4 to the chest and 2 to the head to make sure or a dozen or more to the back of the head whilst they're laying on their face on a train floor - no problem.

It's not the frequency in which they shoot that bothers me, it's the tick box justification especially in the Met and I have to think it's because they allowed their firearms officers to be trained by Special Forces post 7/7 some of them, especially the one who made that 'confessions' show a few months back are psychopaths, not nutters but have zero empathy for people - its target, can I shoot? Yes? Then I'll shoot. "Should" gets lost in the mix - gun crime is still very rare in the UK, gun crime against the Police incredibly rare - they are being too risk adverse imho.

4 people fatally shot by UK police in 2016, 23 in the last 10 years. 957 killed by US police in 2016, that is an educated estimate as the various forces are not obliged to submit any data. Every fatal shooting in the UK is automatically referred to the IPCC. We are NOTHING like the US, thankfully.

This case was inflamed simply because the police used the words "pre-planned operation" and then someone got shot. Ergo, they planned to shoot him (of course they didn't), but that's what people are thinking.

Don't be coming in here with rational facts like that. Silly.

I know, I know 😀

not nutters but have zero empathy for people - its target, can I shoot? Yes? Then I'll shoot.

I'm afraid a lot of people do that simply because it's the training they receive and not because it's their mental want to shoot someone. When training with simulations all the time you become desensitised to the fact it is a human and its just a target you have to hit. With adrenaline running that will only get worse.

Coppers eh? First proper day back to work from the Christmas holiday and they'll do anything to get another few months off on paid leave while the IPCC investigate.

Should have done as he was told:

I'm afraid a lot of people do that simply because it's the training they receive and not because it's their mental want to shoot someone. When training with simulations all the time you become desensitised to the fact it is a human and its just a target you have to hit. With adrenaline running that will only get worse

So, how come they shoot so few times despite, literally, thousands and thousands of stops/operations. You can't blame training for desensitising people when most armed police go through their entire careers without ever pulling the trigger.

Not directly related to this thread but my wife has recently been in the US working with families of officers killed in the line of duty.

This site makes very sobering reading. As many have said - fortunately we are nothing like the US.
https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2016

especially the one who made that 'confessions' show a few months back are psychopaths, not nutters but have zero empathy for people - its target, can I shoot? Yes? Then I'll shoot.

Hmm.

I can think of a couple I've crossed paths who'd fit that category.

V glad I was the one who was armed & they weren't - sadly some of them were instructors!!

Yep the Police must have just stopped a random car and decided to kill a random person, and then a bunch of random people in Bradford might have used it as an excuse to potentially start a riot (doesn't take much in Bradford)

Or the person was a known drug dealer, known to be carrying firearms, who didn't do as the Police asked and unfortunately was killed. Then part of the Bradford population used this as an excuse to play the race card, get a bit upset and nearly use it as an excuse to start rioting.

Of course the truth is probably somewhere in between. However carry a firearm, and logic tells me that your chances of ending up dead go up big time.

I'm reasonably sure that the bloke who was shot was a waste of space and a burden on society, but having known a few armed police officers, including one who was an army colleague who became my brother in law, they seem to have a large number of bell ends amongst their ranks that openly talk about really wanting to shoot someone.

Couldn't give a toss about this bloke if the drug baron rumours are true, but the police attitudes that I've been witness to will inevitably lead to innocent people being shot, and it does seem that the rules of engagement as such have been lowered since the days of the Northern Ireland troubles for example.

but the police attitudes that I've been witness to will inevitably lead to innocent people being shot, and it does seem that the rules of engagement as such have been lowered since the days of the Northern Ireland troubles for example.

4 people fatally shot by UK police in 2016, 23 in the last 10 years. 957 killed by US police in 2016, that is an educated estimate as the various forces are not obliged to submit any data. Every fatal shooting in the UK is automatically referred to the IPCC. We are NOTHING like the US, thankfully.

So, how come they shoot so few times despite, literally, thousands and thousands of stops/operations. You can't blame training for desensitising people when most armed police go through their entire careers without ever pulling the trigger.

Just because they think it's a target it doesn't stop them assessing the threat correctly and choosing not to shoot. That's what the training is there for, to stop them thinking about the human being and make them think about the threat levels. They have to take a lot in to account, especially now they are using 5.56mm ammunition in crowded areas and what's behind the bad guy matters a lot more.

I dunno, he's dropped a shot low, could be the cold barrel or could be his initial round as the weapon came up.

Grouping at 25m standards should be about 50mm so he would have failed his test.

FFS, why are we discussing grouping on here? Do you know how hard it is for many soldiers to kill for the first time? Or that grouping goes to shit outside of a shooting range when you've got adrenalin running through you. Are the police battle hardened, cold, dead eyed special forces operatives now?

Someones dead, discussing grouping is a bit shallow.

FFS, why are we discussing grouping on here?

It's an outrage and I'm as angry as you are.

Surprised that none of the posts refer to yuqub having been in court for attempted murder using a firearm.
Doesn't prove anything but......

Im not angry, its just odd.

Its like people were discussing darts...

Doesn't prove anything but......

In 2 balanced sides, UK and many other countries accept that imprisonment is the legal punishment for crimes. Where somebody puts lives in danger they can act to stop that danger.

@Tom, it's the wannabe's getting their practice targets out. Somebody got killed, on balance I'm glad it wasn't a police officer. For the guy they were after given the choice would you rather be awaiting trial or dead.

Do the firearms guys have body cams these day?

I don't think they were wearing any which is one of the points a lot of people are questioning. Especially as this was a planned operation and not a rush job.

Coppers do a crap, hard job - yes on balance I'd rather a young policeman wasn't dead. It would be nice if the social divisions and drug problems that lead to these things happening were tackled though.

somouk - Member
They have to take a lot in to account, especially now they are using 5.56mm ammunition ...

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

Not sure, a lot of forces seem to choose different rifles depending on their own testing.

The "facts" as I know them

Been in court for attempted murder with a firearm
Has been shot before
His house is covered in cctv cameras
He has had a series of expensive cars inc a yellow Lambourghini (see press photo)
Dating profile of "stud badboy"

Seems highly likley to me he was, as the press have said a drug dealer and was armed.

Still, ten pages at least. Maybe more if the Argualympians are still awake.

[img] [/img]

Drug dealer who had firearm in his vehicle was shot during a planned operation.Big boys games have big boys rules springs to mind.
If criminals are prepared to go onto the streets of this country in possession of a firearm then there are consequences.
And then a bunch of morons use it as an excuse to kick up a stink and play the race card. Nothing to do with race. If he didn't have a gun in his vehicle he wouldn't have been shot.Period.

somouk - Member

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

Not sure, a lot of forces seem to choose different rifles depending on their own testing.

Nothing to do with race. If he didn't have a gun in his vehicle he wouldn't have been shot.[s]Period[/s] Full Stop.

The phrase "live by the sword, die by the sword" (or gun in this case) holds true for such people.

I prefer, "if you walk around carrying a feather, expect to get tickled."

Expect this will go through the usual charade, be turned into race politics, have huge accusations thrown around by both sides and then in 16 months time the evidence in court will clearly point to the guys guilt and it will all be forgotten since something else will be stirred up.

You need to do a lot more than just have the gun in the car to get shot

I'm having some difficulty finding figures I can digest, but it does look as though black people are shot by police officers at about double the rate they occur in the UK's population.

[url=http://] https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ [/url]
[url= https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Time_series_tables_2015-16.ods ]IPCC breakdown tables[/url]

They're arrested at a rate something like 3x higher than white people are, and stop and search statistics are sometimes even more skewed.

That said, about 75% of black people who are convicted of a crime seem to be convicted of a drug offence, and they are appreciably more likely to be convicted of offences relating to Class A drugs.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480250/bulletin.pdf ]Big Government Report[/url]

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479990/infographic.pdf ]Handy Government infographic[/url]

So there may well be nothing more to the higher-than-representative shooting rate than a higher-than-representative involvement in heavy-duty armed drug crime. But it'd be as well to be wary of racial bias. That would seem to mean asking; does intelligence that a suspect may be armed get treated more seriously if the suspect is black, leading to an armed operation and more wary officers? Do armed officers tend to perceive behaviour by black people as more threatening than the same behaviour by white people? Where officers do fire on a suspect, is it more likely that no weapon is found on the suspect if he was black? If the answer to those sorts of questions is a "yes" on average, then that's going to raise the shooting rate for reasons that are basically race-driven, and it would be as well to counter that in training so far as reasonably possible (and I'm imagining this is done already really...).

I'm having some difficulty finding figures I can digest, but it does look as though black people are shot by police officers at about double the rate they occur in the UK's population.

It's a good job they found a gun ,if they had found he was merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original the baying traffic stopping protest would have gathered some proper momentum.

You are pulling stats from a total of 27 over 12 years. That's is not really a valid base for anything more than telling you the total.

That's true, agreed. And having so few to think about is quite a happy situation - I'm certainly not advocating for bumping up the numbers until we achieve statistically significant results.

If it was an entirely isolated figure then I completely agree that it wouldn't be of any interest. As almost every other statistic on interactions with the criminal justic system shows a racial dimension though, I guess it's probably worth keeping an eye on.

As we know nothing this thread is pointless. What wevdo know is that the incident will be used for shit stirring and attention seeking by the press. A good thread to close Mods?j

merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original

He didn't look old enough to be an habitual user of Werthers.

There hasn't been a riot.

Someone's dead, discussing grouping is a bit shallow.

True.
That was an appalling comment and unworthy of you Flashy.

But he was Asian.
And northern.
Barely human really.

The "facts" as I know them

Jambafacts 😆

Appalling? Hardly. More noting that someone doing an incredibly hard, and at times awful, job did so very effectively. Bullets weren't sprayed around à la US police. No one else was put in any danger. A threat was seen (or perceived, obviously, as we're still light on facts).

Since I've been living in Yorkshire I can think of 6 un armed officers being shot by criminals (2 fatally) and 2 armed criminals being shot by armed officers (1fatally). Any comparison to America is ridiculous. There will rightly be an investigation and the officer involved will come under a lot of scrutiny. But these officers are trained to make a decision and the officer made the decision that the police were at risk and took the shot.

Having been supported by armed police numerous times when I was at risk from armed assailants, one thing that amazed me was their reserve. I've only ever seen them draw weapons once, and that involved a samurai sword...

chewkw - Member

Ohhh ... 5.56 from Sig Sauer MCX?

I just noticed one of the London force was using Ruger Mini-14 (5.56) in the past ... niccee ... one of my favourite if I were to own one.

"One of my favourites"?? Why would you ever want to own one ?

Well, it doesn't come across like that Flashy.

Your first post was flippant, and the second comes across as crass and in appalling taste.

Not only have his family got to deal with the loss of a son, they are having to deal with the shocking news that he was also a drug / gun / stolen car dealer.

Im not angry, its just odd.

Its like people were discussing darts...

There are those who enjoy discussing firearms and their use, finding it cool, especially the likes of "you know who" back up there.

[img] [/img]

Having been supported by armed police numerous times when I was at risk from armed assailants, one thing that amazed me was their reserve. I've only ever seen them draw weapons once, and that involved a samurai sword.

Probably due the paperwork that starts as soon as they draw weapons 😉

Thing is, int he circumstances of this stop it might well have been the right move. But that's not the only question- the police chose where and when to make the stop. So it's not so much "was it OK to shoot him in these circumstances" which is seems pretty likely it was- more "could they have arrested him under different circumstances and avoided it" which obviously could also be safer for officers and the public.

[img] [/img]

It's elf and safety innit.

The Police Force have a duty of care towards their employees.

They would be required by law to perform a risk assessment.

The risk assessment would show that the consequences of the suspect firing his gun at the police officers would be serious injury/death.

So measures must be in place to mitigate this and reduce the possibility.

Shoot him if he looks like he could be reaching for a gun.

Presumably they were trying to catch him "in the act". You know like The Sweeney used to do with bank robbers. "You're Nicked".

I'm of the opinion that if you wave a gun around in front of armed police you're going to get shot.

Fair enough we don't know what actually happened here, and until the inquiry has ended we can't speculate. The media are telling us few things about his past that eludes to him not being the nicest person around, and possibly has previous with guns and/or drug dealing.

At the moment I'm on the side of the police, but we'll see what the inquiry comes out with.

merely reaching in the glove box for a werthers original

No evidence that he was a pedophile. Typical STW jumping to conclusions.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

Even if he had a gun, I imagine getting an accurate shot from the drivers seat would be very slim, and as the Police would most likely be wearing body armour, this could be seen as an over-reaction to an overall low-risk situation.

Regardless of whether in this specific case the police were right or wrong, surely it's a good thing that: -
1). We have independent investigation for all such incidents
2). The incidence of weapons discharge by police is very low as a ratio of situations where weapons are available
3). The incidence where people are actually killed by the police is extremely low
4). People feel free to protest and should be allowed to do so

I must say though that the weapons 'love in' in a thread like this is in extremely bad taste. People loving guns that are designed only to kill other people also leads me to questioning how much I would trust their opinions on other matters.

I'm of the opinion that if you wave a gun around in front of armed police you're going to get shot.

well, I sort of agree, in a very narrow sub section of "armed, with intent to hurt other people, no obvious history of mental illness, and with other members of the public who could be harmed nearby" which seems to match closely the events on the M62

Everything else really needs a very calculated approach doesn't it? Unless every single time the cops draw weapons and it's a life and death split second decision (which only should be really rarely), then I'd would suggest the default situation should be that the suspect is arrested without holes in him/her, and breathing.

Cant we all just chill out ,talk about guns and rub some oil on each other? We're all ex special forces It consultants here right.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

Lol. You go and stand in front of the car then.

how much I would trust their opinions on other matters.

How much were you trusting his^H^H^Htheir opinion anyway? 🙂

mikey3 - Member
Cant we all just chill out ,talk about guns and rub some oil on each other? We're all ex special forces It consultants here right.

How much of a threat would have have been shooting from inside the car?

If it was a pistol they found and judging by how close all the other cars were to them then he would have presented a pretty high threat. Maybe not directly to the front but certainly through side windows.

If it was a rifle then things become a lot harder to manage in the confined space of a car.

You are all Ross Kemp and I claim my £5.

ehrob - Member
You are all Ross Kemp and I claim my £5.

If you squint a lot and maybe have some chilli in your eye - I look like Ross Kemp...