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Trading whilst insolvent is not illegal and is acceptable if there is a realistic expectation of being able to trade out of it, being very much dependent on the individual situations at the time. I suggest their reputation is so bad that even with capital injected they do not have a viable business moving forward.
Be lucky to get a delayed frame, they can’t even get a t-shirt to me after 6 months and the repeated offer to just chose another that is in stock!
Trading whilst insolvent is not illegal and is acceptable if there is a realistic expectation of being able to trade out of it, being very much dependent on the individual situations at the time.
Ah, fair enough. Who decides what is realistic though? Or is that something that is applied with hindsight?
Because if they say that then nobody will give them any more money. “Prop up our Ponzi scheme, if you’re lucky enough people will fall for it that you might actually get what you paid for”.
But surely the faithfully won't let them die.
Trading whilst insolvent is not illegal and is acceptable if there is a realistic expectation of being able to trade out of it, being very much dependent on the individual situations at the time.
Ah, fair enough. Who decides what is realistic though? Or is that something that is applied with hindsight?
I think it all basically comes down to accounts. An awful lot of companies actually have no real money month to month, but have a demonstrable flow of orders in, work in progress and accounts payable in addition to any overheads.
I’d argue that ‘insolvency’ in the context of ‘trading while’ implies that a rational auditor, viewing the accounts, would conclude that barring miraculous intervention there was no hope.
Tomhoward decided without the benefit of hindsight, action for insolvent trading would be taken by a liquidator who could also look at deposits being taken and not ring fencing. Lots of options for a liquidator if the company enters formal insolvency proceedings. Key to rememberthough this would only be viable if the company or directors had assets to get at.
Any of the unlucky few heard anything else yet? Obviously not a refund or a frame, but even another fobbing off email?
Thought I’d ask, especially as this thread had just dropped off of the front page and it needs keeping up the top, just where Sick don’t like it....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_while_insolvent
I know it's wiki...
Reading that, Sick do seem perilously close to, or could actually be regarded as trading whole insolvent
They can't pay their bills, they don't appear to have any assets of value, and are still openly trading.
I've got nothing against them...but what's the chance of any order someone makes today being fulfilled? At that point they are knowingly scamming people
They can’t pay their bills,
Do you have any proof of this?
I’ve got nothing against them…but what’s the chance of any order someone makes today being fulfilled?
Your forgetting the last drop saloon from China surely? Which of course was supposed to happen this month from internet rumour.
Well they didn't pay their frame builder, so think that would count as proof.
Do you have any proof of this?
Well they apparently didn't. So either the funds weren't there or they're just incompetent.
Saw a Deathwish at FOD yesterday.
It didn't look as radical in person as I thought it would. Lovely spec with Ohlins and Hope stuff.
Looked nice (and straight 😉 )! Had been well used by the lady owner it seemed. Paint looked sound too.
Someone on PinkBike got a refund via PaPal a couple of days back. Could be a good sign. Fingers crossed for everyone. Even Sick! if they manage to get their debts sorted.
So, one person may* have got a refund?
Hopefully the first of many, but I can’t hold my breath that long.
*Unless it is a fake post put up by a fanboi or Sick themselves....
An acquaintance with an established small bike co... with decent cash flow, actual premises and real sales.. was telling me last year how the industry has changed and Taiwanese factories are no longer providing credit to brands and rather than paying for stuff after it's been recieved and you've sold your way through it, the factories won't even box it up and ship it until it's paid in full. That's a major business model adjustment and you need significantly different financing in place to get a container on the slow boat.
So, unless Sick have already paid and cleared this china drop, it could be reasonable to think that it's another Marino situation on a larger scale. (Assuming china and Taiwan factories have same payment policies)
Have Sick said it's been paid for?
Is this perhaps then where their money is tied up?
Just because someone got a refund from PayPal, doesn't mean Sick did anything not paid them anything?
Meanwhile, over on PB, shit just got real. Maybe.
No, they wouldn't have to enter the state. What normally happens would be we have a court case which I believe they wouldn't show. We would file a warrant for their arrest for a Failure to Appear. Then when they enter the US they will be arrested for the warrant. Depending on the location we may or may not perform extradition. Either way they most likely will spend a couple days in jail or not be able to leave the US due to being a flight risk till they pay it with court fees. I have 1 year and 1 day to file charges in Maryland from the date of when they promised me the refund. Even if they have someone to represent them they will still have to pay it. If they don't then again a warrant will be filed. If I file through U.K. I have to have someone represent me which isn't an issue and I also can't file charges here. Either way I am done being patient. I don't appreciate them saying they are trying to change and yet they still lie and try to prolong things after.
As far as it costing a shit load of cash, it isn't costing me anything except the court fees to which they will have to pay also. I work for the Sheriff's Dept. so I have an attorney on retainer through the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police).
Blimey.
No idea on the legal aspect but he does sound clued up at least.
What a train wreck.
Time for more biscuits ?
Somebody has jumped the queue then... 😁
By 'eck. At least if things do go to a (foreign) court evidence will be produced and weighed...
Well...... that escalated quickly eventually
*changes sky plus box from recording ‘can’t pay? We’ll take it away!’ To ‘banged up abroad’
Oof.
If I was sick, I 'd be paying Deputy dog pronto.
Without any context does that post actually mean anything?
I can't imagine extradition being applied to to settle a relatively small debt. That would be like the home secretary intervening to enforce the ccj! Unless the missing context is some sort of actual evidence of fraud, not just circumstantial musing on a forum.
And I'm always suspicious of people who "work for ..........." Why not give your job title? Cleaner? It consultant? Work experience kid?
Meanwhile, over on PB, shit just got real. Maybe.
Sounds more like bluster really. I imagine that sick have had loads of I'm talking to my lawyer letters and no actual letters.
I can’t imagine extradition being applied to to settle a relatively small debt.
Agreed, but as I read it if they travel to the USA they would be attested on entry (assuming the guy does actually do what he says).
Got to say I'm with thisisnitaspoon sounds like someone's overblown ego. They're struggling to extradite Assange but he thinks they'll extradite someone for not supplying a bike frame. The mild mannered receptionist Rosemary seems to think her case is special.
From my reading of that the "extradition" the poster is referring to is extradition between US states. So he obtains a judgement in Maryland. Sick bike guys fly into New york, they get arrested in New York and extradited to Maryland. US states act very much as independent states for legal stuff including extradition between states
I think the extradition referred to was from one US state to another, not from one country to another. Extradition from the UK would require there to be criminal charges in the US, which are not being talked about.
I'm with tj on the reading of that. Also the "work in sherrif office" I don't think I'd meant in the I'm awesome way, rather as "I'm not going to have to pay because, even as the cleaner, my legal rep is free"
Basically what he is doing is stopping the sick nob heads from entering the USA. They will have a warrant for their arrest which depending on the state they enter they could be extradited the issuing state to pay the court fees or face jail time.
Basically no holidays to the US or any trade shows i.e sea otter.
Ah! That makes more sense Samuelr.
They'll be gutted about not getting to Sea Otter and meeting the fans.
Bet they had a huge stand with pick ups and everything planned too.
I’d imagine they’d be more concerned with not being able to go see Frank the Welder.
‘We seem to be at a stalemate with US immigration...’
Hope Buzz Lightyear doesn’t get detained in a case of mistaken identity!
‘We seem to be at a stalemate with US immigration…’
Difficulties onshoring?
June drop will include Sick! soap on a rope in the shape of a ball and chain and stripey t-shirts in old skool US prison style 🙂
I’d imagine they’d be more concerned with not being able to go see Frank the Welder.
You mean they actually travel to their suppliers?
You mean they actually travel to their suppliers?
When it’s a cool, artisan frame builder with a cult following that they can use to fill up insta with, absolutely. Taiwanese factory, not so much.
Got to say I’m with thisisnitaspoon sounds like someone’s overblown ego. They’re struggling to extradite Assange but he thinks they’ll extradite someone for not supplying a bike frame. The mild mannered receptionist Rosemary seems to think her case is special.
This exactly ,
Or exactly not, if you read what people have written explaining what the person meant regarding extradition.
Seems that maybe my optimism about Sick refunds may be just me hoping for a happy outcome. From PB's forum:
I think you have every right to considering the way they have treated you, and I’m really surprised every other customer with outstanding orders hasn’t done the same, in their respective parts of the world . the refund offered to Gackt felt like the start of something positive, but after 2 weeks since the latest “we’re sorry” message and no others shouting about refunds, I’d hedge my bets the Gackt refund was just an PayPal outcome and nothing to do with sick sorting their shit out. Sadly I cannot see how Sick could ever recover from this, and their ever decreasing apologies are just last ditch attempts to play people for fools. 2 weeks and no action says to me they don’t have the money or don’t want to refund it. Simple as.
Be good for everyone to get this sorted, I'd even like to see Sick sort it for their own sake, but they're not really getting there. All over IG and Facebook when they didn't really need to and then a total blackout when maybe they ought to be talking more.
typical american shouty stance.. we get this a lot with US customers. seems its a cultural thing to 'go in hard' with your complaints
It'll be interesting to see if they can find the funds to pay maxway for the frames they are making for them, even a 100 frames plus tax/import are going to give them a bill of 20-30k to pay before they can get anything to a customer. Given that they haven't managed to scrape enough together to pay Marino it's not looking promising, unless they've thrown him under a bus to make sure they have enough for the new frame delivery
Based on suppliers in Asia and their usual practices (not specifically bike industry) they’ll have likely wanted a letter of credit backed by a bank for the transaction to take place. This guarantees them they’ll get paid once the frames are delivered to the U.K.
If not this, then at least a big deposit or maybe even up front payment in full.
There is no money! Its all been spent.
There is no money! Its all been spent
We don't actually know this though do we, I mean it's on a par with slx 12 speed or OJ's guilt at this point but we don't actually have proof.
Based on suppliers in Asia and their usual practices (not specifically bike industry) they’ll have likely wanted a letter of credit backed by a bank for the transaction to take place. This guarantees them they’ll get paid once the frames are delivered to the U.K.
Sure someone with actual knowledge of the industry said this has changed recently, and they want paying before the frames are shipped. A couple of pages ago.
Hmmm. Schrödinger’s refund, except it doesn’t matter if you open the box, it’s always empty.
Tthew- I cant speak for the bike industry specifically, but I work in a bank looking after Large Corporates. We see a lot of Letters of Credit still being issued - generally when buyers / sellers are new to each other and they haven’t built up a track record of paying / delivering.
It guarantees that the seller will get paid as long as they present the correct paperwork on delivery of the goods to port.
Of course if cash flow is an issue for the seller then they may well wish to have money up front and if they have the bargaining power (e.g. if a big factory vs a small bike company with a poor reputation for paying) then they can clearly demand this.
dangeroubrain - I'd bet my house on it
I heard “Brent” was buying it today.
David?
It must have Brent who met them in Chichester.
Hang on...
Brent.
That's 3. Let's see if he shows up.
Does he have a beard and tattoos?
dangeroubrain – I’d bet my house on it
In fairness I'd bet your house on it too.
Taiwan frame factories will not ship frames until payment has been received, especially with new customers.
In fairness I’d bet your house on it too.
So would Sick....
LOLZ
Its only a wee flat!
Or exactly not, if you read what people have written explaining what the person meant regarding extradition
Exactly yes, Files against person when he has contract of sale with LTD co.
These people are blowing hot air , has anyone seen proof of the magical CCJ that's destroyed the business yet.
No?
These people are blowing hot air , has anyone seen proof of the magical refunds tree that’s saved the business yet.
Fixed it for you.
I do have a account here also. Just mainly to view. As far as what I do for the Sheriff’s Dept. I am a Correctional Officer. So I do know how the judiciary system works in my state.
Scarper!!! It's the fuzz!!!!!
And well done on the court papers BTW.
I should have everything finalized next week. As far as when a court date will be I do not know yet. I did save all my emails and I have screen shots of all the Instagram posts that they deleted for my documentation. I have to meet with my attorney and the Commissioners next week to make sure everything is proper. I also have addresses for all 4 members of the Sick Bicycle Co. so they can be served with their court hearing papers.
Got to love that - it can go with their U.K. CCJ they’ve got too!
For anyone wondering all states are different in the United States on who can file charges and what can be filed.
Their facebook page seems to have vanished........
Their facebook page seems to have vanished……..
I don’t think they liked the reviews they were getting
It was an odd stance they took to not update Facebook since December last year
There is an owners club though. Which hilariously (or not....?) only has 9 members.
Don't cross the Rubicon, it seems.
I just don't appreciate people getting taken advantage of or lied to especially me. And don't get me wrong if and when charges are filed and if they issue a refund they will be dropped because the case is settled. The case would be thrown out of court anyways due to it being settled. I also have no issue publically stating that they issued me a refund if they ever do. But once charges are filed next week I am not able to post any legal aspect of the case until the court has reached its verdict
More people should be taking the same line IMO
seriously.. who cares. they can just send someone else to sea otter with bikes if they ever get out of the hole they're in. (if they even wanted to) but if they do they can refund and make this go away.
interbike is dead. eurobike is the biggest trade show in the world. blocking access to the US aint an issue at this point.
I just don’t appreciate people getting taken advantage of or lied to especially me. And don’t get me wrong if and when charges are filed and if they issue a refund they will be dropped because the case is settled.
Chapeau, and good luck! 🙂
blocking access to the US aint an issue at this point
No, perhaps not for a business in its final death throws, but on a personal life perspective, would you want to have the USA removed from your holiday destinations list?
No, perhaps not for a business in its final death throws, but on a personal life perspective, would you want to have the USA removed from your holiday destinations list?
Equally, if (a big one!) they claw things back from the brink, having that sort of thing against your name hardly helps your reputation!
Worked with someone a few years ago who was banned from flying on BA. When it became widely known, this was used to ridicule him, and undermine him professionally. Can the the same happening here.
Worked with someone a few years ago who was banned from flying on BA. When it became widely known, this was used to ridicule him, and undermine him professionally. Can the the same happening here.
Really he should be a hero.
However
I don't think they can udermine themselves any further.
Really he should be a hero.
For abusing cabin crew? No, not a hero.