Training and diet talk…

With all this talk of carbs for energy, what about the paleo theory of getting a large proportion of your energy from fat? I’m not talking about “optimum” nutrition for training/racing/etc but more for an active “average” joe. Is it be possible/sensible to derive a lot of energy from fats and mainly use (simple) carbs to refuel glycogen after activity?

Worth a read:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-should-athletes-use-fat-or-carbohydrate-as-fuel-631

http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

So something a little more energy dense is useful.

But don’t carbs and protein (I’m assuming you’re comparing these) have the same calories per gram i.e. 4

If you want more energy\calorie dense, then fat would be better at 9 cals per gram?

EDIT: or do you mean the body gets more energy out of the 4 cals per gram from carbs than protein?

Could you work out how many kgs of vegetables I’d have to eat Cap’n, several kilograms no doubt when burning 4-5000 calories a day X-C skiing

According to the diet plan, you would not have to do that.

You really have not understood it properly have you? Honestly. Let us explain it to you properly before slagging it off.

It specifically says you are allowed to have simple carbs during exercise. If you are XC skiing for hours a day, that is exercise, so you would eat simple carbs. I don’t know why you are not getting this.

The idea that you can fool your body into thinking it’s not hungry by filling your stomach with low-calorie stodge or satisfying fat is false imo for two reasons

I absolutely agree, but again that’s not the point of the diet. Please listen to us, we are trying to explain it to you.

Edukator – Member
I don’t put milk on my müesli CaptJon. Hot water and fruit with a natural yohurt accasionally. I like cheese, especially goat’s and sheep’s cheese but don’t drink milk.

Obviously I don’t just eat müesli; bread, pasta, pizza base, occasionally rice, fruit … too. Could you work out how many kgs of vegetables I’d have to eat Cap’n,

No, do it yourself.

several kilograms no doubt when burning 4-5000 calories a day X-C skiing. You see the problem? Training with a bloated stomach is unpleasant and high intensity training with a full stomach a very bad idea. So something a little more energy dense is useful.

Own up now, are you stupid or trolling? On the iDD you can have simple carbs before, during and after intense exercise such as cross country skiing.

I absolutely agree, but again that’s not the point of the diet. Please listen to us, we are trying to explain it to you.

No, Edukatroll is explaining it to you.
You must eat cheese and museli.

I haven’t used the word “must” anywhere. “How about”, “try”, “I suggest” are the words I use.

I’m not camparing protein and carbs, Bellerophon, I’m comparing the volume of iDave approved vegetables I’d need to eat with spaghetti and pointing out that I’d be too full and farty to ride a bike comfortably if I ate enough veg to replace the carbs I get from iDave red list spaghetti.

I’ve tried training on more fat, Jamie, adding cheese and ham and/or olive oil to my breakfast every other day. It doesn’t seem to make much difference to me so long as there are adequate carbs too. If it works for you, do it.

I’m not camparing protein and carbs, Bellerophon,

Ah ok, I should’ve read all the thread, got a bit lazy 😳 as you were

I’m comparing the volume of iDave approved vegetables I’d need to eat with spaghetti and pointing out that I’d be too full and farty to ride a bike comfortably if I ate enough veg to replace the carbs I get from iDave red list spaghetti

But you are ignoring the rules about eating simple carbs around and during riding. Why do you keep doing this?

But you are ignoring the rules about eating simple carbs around and during riding.

Or indeed eating any carbs. Lentils are not the only source outside pasta for carbs and why should you suffer from gas because of lentils? Are you not preparing them properly?

Worth a read:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-should-athletes-use-fat-or-carbohydrate-as-fuel-631

http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

Interesting links, thanks (especially the first one). Obviously there are a lot of conflicting opinions on this, but I am leaning towards a higher-fat diet as being the more healthy long-term option.

I’m making some bacon, cashew, lentil, scrambled egg, peanut butter and raisin energy bars for Sundays 93 miler. They’re bloody gorgeous.

The idea that you can fool your body into thinking it’s not hungry by filling your stomach with low-calorie stodge or satisfying fat is false imo for two reasons. 1/ your stomach adapts to portion size and composition. 2/ hunger is also your body’s way of telling you it needs fuel and that has as much to do with all this blood sugar stuff we’ve been talking about as with how full you are.

1 and 2) I said protein not fat. A demonstrable effect, in others, as shown in various nutrition journals. To my body stodge is your bread, pizzas etc.

A diet higher in protein results in reduced calorific intake, where no restriction on calories is applied.

The precise mechanism is not understood, but does not appear related to either of the hormones ghrelin or leptin.

Please actually read what is written before you dismiss it.

Matt

[Edit] How well do those go with a brew Dave?

They go well

I use this recipe, and replace rice with lentils. I also add the eggs raw and tray bake it all.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/nutrition/The-Best-Energy-Bar-Ever.html

beans are also high in carbs. I’m just looking at a packet borlotti beans which I’ve pulled out the cupboard.

per100g
protein 23g
carbs 60.1
of which sugars 2g
fibre 24g

pretty nutritious although I’m not quite sure where they get the figures from as it adds up to 107g!

Kev

Ta, I’ll give them a go when I get the running/riding miles up.

5Km at the local parkrun doesn’t call for much in the way of additional nutrition.

Matt

Kev,

Fibre can be carbs as well and they don’t always analyse all of these things.

The carbs is often calculated by difference, subtract protein, moisture, fat (fibre) from a hundred.

The correction for moisture is not always carried out. It’s a very imprecise science to be honest, even the protein is a guess!

Matt

Plus those are the dry figures I believe. I doubt you’d eat 100g of those beans when soaked and cooked, but you’d easy stick 2 slices of bread down between meals, which would be the same amount of carbs.

I really don’t think you can get as much carbs this way as you would eating bread, pasta and potatoes, but I do think you can get as many carbs as you need for daily living and some exercise.

You DO need simple carbs if you are doing loads of exercise, but the timing is critical. You have to eat them around exercise.

Molgrips is more than likely right here. If you halved all of those figures once the beans are rehydrated, you wouldn’t be miles away.

He’s wrong about one thing though, I could easily put 200g of rehydrated beans away, especially with some garlic and olive oil 😀

Matt

yup you’re right those are the dry figures. Cooked is quite a bit less. What I was getting at though is that the figures are similar to pasta and spaggetti, no ? which I presume is given in uncooked form. Pasta is usually about 70% carbs at a guess ?

Kev

Kev,

Couldn’t agree more. I don’t think the difference means that you would have to spend all day with your nose in the trough to get the same amount of nutrients, when you remove those bread/pasta/white type carbs from your diet.

Matt

I’m making some bacon, cashew, lentil, scrambled egg, peanut butter and raisin energy bars for Sundays 93 miler. They’re bloody gorgeous.

*cough* 🙂

so… it begs the question, why do some people feel they’re not getting enough carbs from eating beans when quite clearly there’s plenty there?

Kev

The question that shall not be answered, thread would be over and TSY would have to start a new one.

Matt

I personally don’t feel that beans etc give me enough after hard exercise.

I still eat porridge for breakfast post training and do eat a fair bit of fruit every day, but…

When asked how I’d got so lean(there is definitely room for improvement)by a random bloke in the gym today I cited the iDiet, training on empty in the morning and no more daily drinking.

Don’t make me do it Matt, just don’t!

someone must know something as to why this is, what is different about the composition of carb content in beans to that of pasta and rice etc?

Kev

I’m simple so… it’d seem to me that you can get a hell of a lot more carbs, more quickly in bread etc than you can in beans?

It’s easy to eat a stick of French bread in one sitting… how many beans would I have to eat to get the same carbs/calories?

I believe it is related to the soluble fibre content in the beans

Yeti…

Calories
A 2-oz. serving of French baguette contains 150 calories. By comparison, the French baguette contains about the same number of calories as a 2-oz. serving, usually about two slices, of sliced white or wheat bread.

Carbohydrates
The bulk of the calories in the French baguette come from its carbohydrate content. A 2-oz. serving contains 30 to 32 g of carbohydrates, about the same amount found in two slices of white or wheat bread.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/529715-nutritional-information-of-a-french-baguette/

so about 100g of beans? not that difficult to eat.

Kev

when I’ve cooked the pot of beans tomorrow that I have in soak tonight I shall weigh 100g and see if it’s any different to the normal portion I’d eat. I know I eat 100g of dried rice when it’s cooked as I weigh it before throwing it in the saucepan.

Kev

400g of beans.

There is 54g of carbs in a can of baked beans, that isn’t much to eat. I usually have a can on three bits of toast.

But the key difference is the insulin response, not the calorific content per se.

I believe that the lower insulin response is related to the soluble fibre content of the beans and pulses.

Gentleman. May I point out it’s Friday night, and you are chatting about beans.

Right. Erm…as you were.

Not just chatting about beans, i’m soaking in a bath of them. The joys of wifi.

alot of the carbs in a can of baked beans will be sugar though, but it gives an idea of the weight of cooked beans. I expect I’ll be eating more than 100g of them then.

so… one person has mentioned the soluble fibre content, so is it then that a percentage of the carb content in beans isn’t metabolised into the glycogen stores which is leaving people still feeling hungry? just guessing now, but it would be interesting to find out.

Kev

Gentleman. May I point out it’s Friday night, and you are chatting about beans.

oh the joys of STW

I am drinking red wine and talking about beans… I’m also too busy working whilst you lot are on it all day!

oddjob.. I just read your line about the insulin.

Kev

Not just chatting about beans, i’m soaking in a bath of them. The joys of wifi.

So its more like beans and sausage?

Almost a full english.

It’s ok, I’ve had a couple of pints of mediterranean beer and half a bottle of red in keeping with the theme.

So, how many oz in a whole stick of french bread?

Depends. Best bet is buy one and weigh it.