Today, if you're English…

LHS, The Vanguard class submarines are British (Royal Navy) and are all based in Scotland, how is that English?

Submarines in general – invented by William Bourne

I'm sorry, but you can't separate an instrument of war from War itself.

Yes you can, easily, unless you have a comeplete lack of self-control and get all wound up by the unpleasnatry of war whenever you see a weapon. I can look at the spitfire as a nice piece of engineering, regardless of what it was used for. I have massive admiration for the guidance electronics in guided missiles, I think they're great. Of course blowing people up isn't nice though, but thats entirely seperate. And there's the positive spin you can always use on "better" weapons – the better they are, generally (these days) the less damage is done to civilians and the more decisive a blow can be, with luck reducing overall damage on the road to victory.

Ok, i can see I've ruffled a few feathers…

My point is, the the Spitfire, along with the Hurricane, and all other military hardware, were developed as part of the British war effort, and considered British, not English. For English Nationalists to hijack the Spitfire as a symbol of Englishness, regardless of whatever petty excuse they might try to hide behind, is insulting to Britain and all those who fought for British freedom. Indeed, Spitfires were equipped with American Browning machine guns, and parts were made all over the British Isles, as well as abroad, by workers from all over the Commonwealth. IE, it's not uniquely or distinctly 'English'. History books don't talk about the Spitfire as 'English', do they?

Anyway, back on topic:

England to me. Not all of this is solely english and for me its very hard to separate my love for britain and england but………

The land of green rolling hills and farmland shaped by the actions of mankind over millennia. A pint of ale sat outside a thatched pub on a spring day after a walk across the moors. Cricket on the village green.

My great grandparents farm. Unchanged for hundreds of years.

A land of thinkers and doers. A land of tolerance and eccentricity.

A land of diversity in its peoples and its countryside.

Hmm, but stuff like the Spitfire were planned and funded by the British Govt, surely? Does that count? Personally I don't think so.

English things to me: Cricket, Morris Dancing, Magna Carta, Civil War, Levellers, Alfred, Saxon art, Tea and Scones and so on. I'd not want to include anything paid for by the British govt or British Economy… I think you'd have a hard time find things distinctively English and not British after say the Act of Union with Scotland…

Edit: And the language and a lot of its literature.

Ah yes football that famous Greek game.

Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over. Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?

TM – underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?

Bit pointless claiming football as 'English'

Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.

IE, 'English'.

Molgrips; d'you want a fight, or what? 😀

As far as I'm concerned, an item can only really be classified as "belonging to" or emblematic of a country if it was primarily conceived, designed and built in that country. If you WANT to separate it into a national thing, then the spitfire is English. Part of the British war effort, but it's English designed and made. That doesn't detract from other parts of the british isles' participation in the war unless you think that somehow the plane was scottish/welsh etc, they had other contributions. The whole point I made in the other thread is that I rarely consider myself anything, if I'm forced to decide I'm English. If you ask me what the spitfire signifies, it's the british war effort, if you ask me who made it it's the English. We're a union, workign together, but that doesn't mean each side can't claim its own contribution to that effort.

Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.

Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)

Coffeeking +1

Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)

Nope. The Spitfire is historically considered as 'British', rather than 'English'. Football is recognised as an 'English' game.

Next.

Some of this stuff is going over some of your heads like an English Electric lightning…

I think that something being defined as 'of' a country would be defined as who currently owns it. Try telling the Brazilians that football's not their game.

Same goes for the English language in truth. Just because it was invented here doesn't mean it's emblematic of us any more.

My point re Engish v British is that after a certain point, our country is no longer England but Britain, so our achievements cannot be seperated out into the different regions of Britain. Engineering etc was made possible by the British economy, not the English one.

I would say again that something English in this context has to be primarily associated with England historically and currently. This is not true of football, or the language. Cricket is arguable, since it's mainly an English game in Britain (being not played much in the other parts) and it's really only played in the ex-empire countries as a consequence of British rule. I say arguable, since India for example support the game better than we do.

Submarines in general – invented by William Bourne

Although William Bourne designed a prototype submarine in 1578, the idea was nothing new and it is not know (although speculated) if this design was used by Cornelius Jacobszoon (a Dutchman) in the first successful submarine in 1620, therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.

Talkemother

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

That is all.

Do you understand?

Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over.

A ridiculous arguement. How would the Scots feel to know that golf is no longer theirs? Or the welsh no longer had umm, err, oh nevermind.

Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?

Except the Welsh, obviously.
Football, Cricket and Rugby are English, I'm only partially English and I know that.

TM – underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?

the underground may have been but the map is certainly an iconic design, by Harry Beck, an englishman

damn it I bit

Ale time

therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.

I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

Wow, that's such a convincing argument I must be wrong… 🙄

All of these debates about what can count as English just show up how silly the whole concept it – most of the good things that have come about are a result of collaborations, often between people from all sorts of different countries and backgrounds.

Picking a tiny area of an already small island and deciding to be 'proud' of things from inside those boundaries is somewhat weird imo.

I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

The combination of a practical yet beautiful design with the immense skill and courage of the pilots make the Spitfire a powerful icon of wartime England. Learn about the remarkable man who – against all odds – created its revolutionary design. Read about the Merlin engine. And discover the ways we've come to remember the Spitfire today, such as airshows, war movies and Airfix models!
It's of the internet so it must be true.

Talkemada,

Why don't you just leave it and accept that there are varying opinions. Ok? Best of luck.

Because, just like his tiresome banned alter-egos, he's sadly incapable.

The Spitfire is actually derived from the Supermarine Seaplane racers – undoubtedly not for war, and also undoubtedly English. If you choose to get 'offended' by these facts then you're even more stupid than your previous guises amply illustrated.

Oh, and as for reclaiming it from the 'English' nationalists. Spot the obvious clue in the name BNP…

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

That is all.

Do you understand?

It's a 'plane designed by an Englishman, built in England. As a symbol of 'Englishness', or 'England', it's inappropriate.

Do you understand? 🙄

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

😆

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

😆

POST OF THE DAY!

To be honest, I don't really get the Basil Fawlty 'don't mention the war' thing anyway.

So… we managed to defeat fascism, but we're not allowed to talk about it in case someone spills their tea in horror at the very idea of such a thing.

Does this seem inherently contradictory to anyone else too

It's a 'plane designed by an Englishman, built in England. As a symbol of 'Englishness', or 'England', it's inappropriate IMO.

Do you understand?

Fixed it for you…

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

The Spitfire was designed by a Brit. Designed and built in Britain by Brits. Therefore it is a British symbol.

Understand?

Eddie the eagle; English or British? (He was born in Colchester…)

For Gods sake it's not a symbol of England never has been and never will be. It's a symbol of briliant English design like all the other wonderful feats of engineering on this post.