This Obesity Thing

How about the right level of complication/simplification?

That would be great, but given that the basic ELMM thing isn’t being done to any great effect, how on earth can you complicate it and expect better?

Think of explaining this to the cast of TOWIE, think about the lowest common denominator, then think that even molgrips can’t use the information he has to any great effect.

Molgrips’ case is made harder by trying to pack in intense exercise.

the basic ELMM thing isn’t being done to any great effect

Why not?

IMO, ELMM is basically just a tag line for the slightly less catchy ‘create a calorie deficit by adjusting diet and exercise’ which is why advocates of ELMM (me included) keep pointing out that it really is that simple, and why all of the internal mechanisms that Molgrips mentioned don’t actually make any difference to that fact (in so much as they are a hidden part of the energy balance equation, but as long as the ‘answer’ is negative their actual value is unimportant).

What they do impact on is why you can’t say for 2 people exercising the same and eating the exactly same diet the outcome will be the same; or that if a person sticks to a specific diet and exercise regime it will mean that they will continue to lose weight at the same rate i.e. we’re all special little snowflakes.

SD-253 – Member

Just as matter of interest how can I manage to eat nothing till 8pm and exercise (albeit not excessively) and not feel any ill effects? This is not a rhetorical question

You’re not human, you’re a robot?

Your body has used your brain as an energy source?

Molgrips’ case is made harder by trying to pack in intense exercise.

I agree that that is a stumbling block, but will also be the same for many people. I also accept that I have the time to go out and ride or walk lots; my only task today is to make a cheese and onion pie…

But that poses the question:

How do we change what people eat and how much exercise they do?

My feeling is a simple approach will be better accepted.

I also feel that exercise has to be given as much promotion as eating.

Edit:
the basic ELMM thing isn’t being done to any great effect

Why not?

Cos people don’t exercise and we are seeing increasing rates of obesity.

My feeling is a simple approach will be better accepted.

It’s not really working at the moment is it.

I also feel that exercise has to be given as much promotion as eating.

I think all the evidence suggests eating is much more important. Building lots of low-intensity exercise into everyday life seems to be the most beneficial thing you can do.

That would be great, but given that the basic ELMM thing isn’t being done to any great effect, how on earth can you complicate it and expect better?

Another way of looking at it is – we’re promoting the wrong message, let’s try one that works instead.

Another way of looking at it is – we’re promoting the wrong message, let’s try one that works instead.

I’d agree with that, what would you suggest?

What they do impact on is why you can’t say for 2 people exercising the same and eating the exactly same diet the outcome will be the same; or that if a person sticks to a specific diet and exercise regime it will mean that they will continue to lose weight at the same rate i.e. we’re all special little snowflakes.

Well yes, rates of weight loss will vary, but anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that some people’s rate of weight loss will be very slow or even zero. And some people will find it just too difficult to do. The question is, WHY do they find it so difficult? This is a big question.

Why not?

Cos people don’t exercise and we are seeing increasing rates of obesity.

I meant why are people not ELMMing – why do people not manage it? Even those that want to?

I’d suggest the very first thing to do is change from ELMM to EBMM. As in, eat BETTER move more. Better meaning no sugar or refined carbs. This is considered a bit of a health nut thing, but it’s fundamental.

People give up on ELMM because they feel really hungry, and eating less doesn’t help. But they could eat ‘better’ food and feel more full whilst still losing weight.

I also accept that I have the time to go out and ride or walk lots

I don’t, and most of my 12 hour day at work today has been sat at a desk. If I’d driven in and was driving home, I’d have done no exercise at all today.

Thankfully, I’m able to ride to/from work, so I’ll get half an hour of moderate exercise, but many won’t or can’t.

I’d agree with that, what would you suggest?

Think molly sums it up pretty well actually.

Have I won the internet?

Oh nooooo, it’s all starting again!!!! 🙁

Have I won the internet?

Have I won the internet?

Only if:

a) You actually practice what you preach, and

b) It works.

I blame the car, personally.

Apologies if this point has already been made but wasnt there an article a couple of years ago in some medical journal that worked out that because obese people die younger they are actually saving the NHS money. Given burden on the NHS is the justification people use to hate the fatties, will we have to find another excuse?

I’d suggest the very first thing to do is change from ELMM to EBMM. As in, eat BETTER move more. Better meaning no sugar or refined carbs. This is considered a bit of a health nut thing, but it’s fundamental.

People give up on ELMM because they feel really hungry, and eating less doesn’t help. But they could eat ‘better’ food and feel more full whilst still losing weight.

I think you have won Molgrips. Agree 100%

I’d suggest the very first thing to do is change from ELMM to EBMM. As in, eat BETTER move more.

I thought this was already the case tbh.

Better meaning no sugar or refined carbs.

Smashing.

Now we just have to convince the entire food industry, who are famously receptive to attempts to alter even the packaging…

Not going to happen is it?

Have done a bit more reading and it seems to make a degree of sense to me. I was already aware of the foods that don’t seem to fill me up – or do at the time but don’t keep you feeling sated, and so make you want to snack, but wasn’t aware that they have a mechanism leading to fat storage.

So will adopt what I’ve learnt into my 5:2 schedule. So fast days will be protein and veg anyway, as they usually are, but will not default to porridge as my standard breakfast and aim instead for ham and eggs. Normal days will also reduce / remove as much ‘bad’ carbs as I can while still being able to eat while travelling / at meeting lunches, etc. And one day a week where I still broadly stick to my reasonable cal allowance but will be free to eat what I want to get to it, and I won’t cry if I exceed allowances!

Just watching supersize v superskinny. In America they are now fitting drains to patients stomachs so they can choose to drain off a third of what they have eaten wtf.

I thought this was already the case tbh.

I thought EBMM meant Enjoy Beer Move More 😥

.You’re not human, you’re a robot?

Very good 😀

. grum – Member
I can’t see how over complication is any better than over simplification, particularly in the context of public health.
How about the right level of complication/simplification?

what can you do with this vast array of knowledge, it is unusable.
What a stupid thing to say.
Its not going to happen the NHS is not going to do all this crap and calling me stupid doesn’t make your views right. It just makes you a sado.

.Jamie – Member
I thought this was already the case tbh.
I thought EBMM meant Enjoy Beer Move More

Like it. But how much pleasure can you get from beer? I thought I had reached saturation point (pleasure not drowning)

stick to my reasonable cal allowance but will be free to eat what I want to get to it, and I won’t cry if I exceed allowances!

Bad boy! No cheating. 500 calories the rest (100 calories) would be tea and coffee or at least the milk in the tea and coffee and a speck of sugar. It is also (in my opinion) best to eat it all at night so you have something to look forward to. Had my scoff about an hour ago 130 grams of new pots, one tin of mushy peas and 110 grams of cooked in the oven defrosted chicken. Frozen chicken as it has water injected in it which makes it (in my opinion) more succulent. Also you can always keep your freezer well stocked.

In America they are now fitting drains to patients stomachs so they can choose to drain off a third of what they have eaten wtf.

Saw this one a while back.

Whilst decidedly bonkers in its own way, I’m not sure the end effect differs much from a stomach stapling operation – except a stomach staple also has the benefit of altering the amount of hormones the stomach produces.

you may as well just get them to puke

Its not really helping them change the way they eat where as stapling does force them to consume less – it worked for a friend of mine- and alter their diet which is presumably the goal.

If you’re doing 100 cals in milk and sugar in your tea, that’s a lot. I drink skimmed milk so no fat calories to speak of, 5% sugars which i now realise isn’t great, 35cals / 100ml.

Had my scoff about an hour ago 130 grams of new pots, one tin of mushy peas and 110 grams of cooked in the oven defrosted chicken. Frozen chicken as it has water injected in it which makes it (in my opinion) more succulent. Also you can always keep your freezer well stocked.

I had stir fried vegetables (using minimal spray of oil), 100g haddock fillet oven cooked with a bit of paprika on top to spice it up a bit, and 150g of king prawns in with the stir fry. Didn’t really need the haddock either but want to keep my protein up. Total about 350cals.

People give up on ELMM because they feel really hungry, and eating less doesn’t help. But they could eat ‘better’ food and feel more full whilst still losing weight.

100% agree.

Eating less of the same processed crap foods won’t help you lose weight because you’ll be hungry, give up, binge, gain weight, then feel guilty, beat yourself up for having no “willpower” and the whole cycle starts again.

Hence how we start associating food and eating with morality – this thread shows very clearly that people make moral judgements about overweight people, i.e. they must be greedy, lazy, stupid, have no self control, etc.

The diet industry conditions us to think that it is a matter of choice, moral willpower, the ability to ignore hunger and refuse food is virtuous and eating, or heaven forbid, enjoying food, is sinful. No wonder we have eating disorders at both ends of the spectrum.

If you enjoy food, then you give a shit how it’s been produced, reared, and got to your table. You start questioning mass production, factory farming, supermarkets, the whole system, and that’s the very thing they don’t want us to do. Why were our grandparents, by and large, not overweight when they ate butter, cheese, lard, and bacon and all the things the diet industry tells us we shouldn’t eat, and instead we should choose chemical laden crap which is full of artificial stuff that HUMANS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO EAT.

If you don’t enjoy food, i.e. you have been conditioned by the mass media, food manufacturing and diet industries to think that enjoying eating is bad, will make you overweight and socially unacceptable, then of course, you will buy this shit in order to feel better about yourself.

As a woman who does not enter into diet talk, doesn’t care about calories, and will have a dessert if she wants one, I am something of a social pariah among women in my workplace who are always dieting, breaking the diet, or about to start a new diet. Putting butter on my toast seems like a political act, in this setting. They continually wonder why I am not overweight or the same size they are. They say it’s not fair and I must have a fast metabolism or something.

In summary, the diet fascists, calorie counting enthusiasts and thin fantasy peddlers are taking the piss out of us in order to make themselves rich.

You think far too much.

Why were our grandparents, by and large, not overweight when they ate butter, cheese, lard, and bacon and all the things the diet industry tells us we shouldn’t eat, and instead we should choose chemical laden crap which is full of artificial stuff that HUMANS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO EAT.

So the migration from physical/manual jobs to more desk/sedentary work, as well as the increase in less physical pass times such as tv/computer viewing, has nothing to do with it?

In summary, the diet fascists, calorie counting enthusiasts and thin fantasy peddlers are taking the piss out of us in order to make themselves rich it’s everyone elses fault, and personal responsibility has no part to play.

…and as for the feeling hungry bit, yes, you will feel hungry. It’s a feeling that we have all but forgotten, and one with which we should become reacquainted.

I would rather oversimplify tbh.

I am overweight because I eat too much and exercise too little. I have embarked on a 6 day a week exercise prog and food diary to control my eating. I am now losing weight. Watching what you eat and exercising aren’t always the most enjoyable things which is why people don’t do them. Attitudes towards our own health in this country are, on the whole, abysmal. People don’t seem to be able to take any kind of responsibility for any decisions (not just eating/exercising).

So the migration from physical/manual jobs to more desk/sedentary work, as well as the increase in less physical pass times such as tv/computer viewing, has nothing to do with it?

I made an earlier post on this thread that mentioned that, I think yes, that does have a lot to do with it.

In summary, the diet fascists, calorie counting enthusiasts and thin fantasy peddlers are taking the piss out of us in order to make themselves rich it’s everyone elses fault, and personal responsibility has no part to play.

Nope, I don’t believe that either. I think we do have personal responsibility to question what these idiots feed us, whether in the form of advertising for miracle diets, “thinspiration” and the fetishization of skinny in the media, or telling us butter is bad, here eat this cocktail of processed vegetable fat and it’s better for you.

I think we have personal responsibility to look after our own health, and not just blindly believe the crap we are fed by an industry whose primary motive is profit, not our health and wellbeing.

…and as for the feeling hungry bit, yes, you will feel hungry. It’s a feeling that we have all but forgotten, and one with which we should become reacquainted.

It’s normal to feel a bit hungry. It’s your body telling you it needs fuel. The problem is when people eat for emotional reasons, rather than hunger. We should indeed become reacquainted with the signals of true biological hunger. What we shouldn’t do is turn the ability to ignore or deny hunger into a personal moral virtue, because that is also as mentally unhealthy as overeating or eating for other reasons than hunger.

Attitudes towards our own health in this country are, on the whole, abysmal.

It’s not limited to this country!

People don’t seem to be able to take any kind of responsibility for any decisions (not just eating/exercising).

As I said, there are a fair few people to whom this applies. However there are also lots of people who do make a significant effort and still fail.

Round in circles again.

I think we do have personal responsibility to question what these idiots feed us, whether in the form of advertising for miracle diets, “thinspiration” and the fetishization of skinny in the media, or telling us butter is bad, here eat this cocktail of processed vegetable fat and it’s better for you.

I think we have personal responsibility to look after our own health, and not just blindly believe the crap we are fed by an industry whose primary motive is profit, not our health and wellbeing think about what and above all how much we eat and how much exercise we do.

We don’t need the politics behind it, we are all up to speed on that. We do need to get on with helping ourselves.

I have embarked on a 6 day a week exercise prog and food diary to control my eating. I am now losing weight.

That’s great – I highly doubt that you’ll be able to keep up doing a food diary/’exercise prog’ long term though.

Thankfully, I’m able to ride to/from work, so I’ll get half an hour of moderate exercise, but many won’t or can’t.

Hey ! I can beat that. My current place of work has built a bus stop style shelter for the smokers, but has so far refused to construct a bike storage / lock up facility, for those of us who would prefer to cycle to work.

🙁