Scotland Indyref 2

To be fair, if a COE can manage not to completely **** things up by the things they did mean to do then they’ve probably done better than average.

True – but as I said this IME was by accident not by design

But this is why debates on here are so amusing, We have the lefties going on about austerity in the UK supported by eh angry nats and the likes of Jambas talking about free spending socialists in France. In realty they are both wrong. UK policy has been more expansionary that the French version – but like analysis of the SNP the gulf between the rhetoric and reality is massive.

IIRC a few folk on this thread were berating Sturgeon for not sorting out the economy of scotland. this piece shows why she cannot. Ok a very partial source and rather lighthearted but it shows the limitations Holyrood has in taking any meaningful action on the economy.

Exploring the options

and this one shows why scotland needs different immigration policies to those we have now

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/10/highland-clearances/

Just when you think it cant get worse – the return of WoS 😯

Amusing that a lot of stuff in that WoS article is the type of thing people would associate with Tory policies i .e. Reduce vat, reduce fuel duty, reduce corporation tax and increased levels of immigration.

Is that what the Glasgow working class SNP cost really wants? I doubt it.

Big state, but low taxes makes iScotland sound like a mini USA.

It just an example that shows the limitation of the powers that the scottish government actually have to do anything much about the economy.

Tory policy to reduce VAT and increase immigration? shurly shome mishtake

Amusing that a lot of stuff in that WoS article is the type of thing people would associate with 80 Kingsway East, Dundee

FTFY

Amusing that a lot of THM stuff is associated with Pete Burns

Cmon gordi, you can do better than that

WoS, what an unpleasant fellow he is.

I heard Alex Salmond on the radio the other day, suggesting that Scotland’s ANNUAL deficit could be outweighed with a bunch of THROUGH LIFE costs for Trident etc, making a bigger number. Subterfuge worthy of a Brexiteer!

Must admit, TJ, WoS? You’re begging for ridicule there.

On a serious point, if you’ve been living in the UK for 8 years, can you not just apply for naturalisation and get it? I don’t know, just thought that was the case.

WoS; the Ying to THM’s Yang.

Well put duckie, garbage to be ridiculed (WoS) versus facts (THM). Take your pick 😉

After Joe’s post, you couldn’t have highlighted the contrast better!

TJ, I learned that on here it’s best to use the facts and original sources from a WoS article instead of the article itself – that forces people to argue against the facts themselves instead of going off on a “WoS is literally Hitler” rant 😉

That’s a good suggesrion Ben albeit a stiff challenge that you are setting yourself

Arguing about the economy of independence is a diversion.

It is an issue of control. Self-determination.

At the moment what we want in Scotland is swamped by the demands of the larger party in the Union.

There is no coherent argument against independence, just the usual sneering colonial rantings that have been trundled out for just about every country that has gained its freedom from the Empire.

Some have done well, some have done poorly, all have faced major issues, but none have wanted to come crawling back.

Arguing about the economy of independence is a diversion.
It is an issue of control. Self-determination.

Yes agreed. It’s the objective at-any-cost

At the moment what we want in Scotland is swamped by the demands of the larger party in the European Union.

FIFY

There is no coherent argument against independence

There are many and we have made them you and the 45% minority just don’t agree or more likely just revert to the first point that economic arguments just don’t matter

It is an issue of control. Self-determination.

Racist!

jambalaya – Member
‘It is an issue of control. Self-determination.”
Yes agreed. It’s the objective at-any-cost

And what is wrong with that?

Nothing epic. I have said that all along. If that’s the basis of a voters decsion that is their right.

Arguing about the economy of independence is a diversion.
It is an issue of control. Self-determination.

Yeah, because having the decisions made in Holyrood rather than Westminster makes a real difference to people’s lives, whilst having a job doesn’t.

Yeah, because having the decisions made in Holyrood rather than Westminster makes a real difference to people’s lives, whilst having a job doesn’t.

There’s no causal connecction between decisions being made in holyrood and unemployment aracer Nor Westminster come to that. Is there some special reason that Scots should not be able to take the decisions necessary for Scotland’s economy to grow? (edit)

If Scotland was independent today, would we be clamouring to join the UK? Especially a post-Brexit UK? Is Ireland desperate to rejoin?

That’s the basic question really. Scotland staying in the UK is really about inertia and not wanting change, it’s not really a logical choice about what’s best for Scotland and the people living here.

There’s no causal connecction between decisions being made in holyrood and unemployment aracer

Why does the SNP Takk about reducing youth unemployment by 40% by 2021? Are they making things up?

Is there some special reason that Scots should not be able to take the decisions necessary for Scotland’s economy to grow? (edit)

When was the outlawed? Shall we close down Holyrood as a waste of time and money?

That’s the basic question really. Scotland staying in the UK is really about inertia and not wanting change, it’s not really a logical choice about what’s best for Scotland and the people living here.

There’s rather a lot of,people who disagree with you Ben. You had a chance to present an alternative and what did you get? The book of dreams. You were badly let down weren’t you.

No more referendum for Scotland I am afraid for at least this generation.

Sturgeon/SNP can keep stirring up the people emotion with this One agenda to keep their party going but after a while it will be rather dull and boring.

Let see how long Sturgeon/SNP can keep banging on the same issue with EU bureaucratic backing.

You were badly let down weren’t you.

We were. We were told that steel and HMRC jobs were safe if we voted No. We were told that our EU membership was guaranteed if we voted No. We were told that there would be a whole new load of devolved powers if we voted No, the words “near federal” were used. We were told that Clyde shipbuilding contracts would be secure if we voted No. We were told that the UK’s broad shoulders would support oil workers in a downturn. We were told we were a valued and respected part of the UK, we were asked to help lead a new resurgent Union. We were told “we love you Scotland, please don’t leave”.

We were badly let down, you’re absolutely right.

We were told that our EU membership was guaranteed if we voted No.

Really? I don’t recall that claim. Hard to make that one with the EU referendum still to come. One of the reasons I voted no was precisely because there was a chance of escaping the EU that way.

Perhaps Ben is working off different texts? His list is quite specific. IIRC correctly the promises made were much vaguer with the detail being provided by the Smith Commission which the SNP supported (albeit before playing Oliver and demanding “MORE!”)

Yeah, because having the decisions made in Holyrood rather than Westminster makes a real difference to people’s lives, whilst having a job doesn’t.

There’s no causal connecction between decisions being made in holyrood and unemployment aracer Nor Westminster come to that[/quote]

Why does this point always seem to get strawmanned? Is my sarcasm not obvious? No, I don’t think the location of the government inherently makes any difference to the economy. Other sacrifices you need to make to get that might make a difference. Yet epi thinks job losses are unimportant because it’s all about the ideology of self determination even if that is detrimental to things which make a real difference to people’s lives.

Other interpretations of the work of the Smith commission and claims made by Better Together are available,including accurate ones that don’t involve bare faced lying to suit your agenda, as “forgetful” THM does…
Any reply to any of the points he raises? Strange how you are unable to counter any of those awkward posts with anything other than suggesting he is reading from “other texts”

Really? I don’t recall that claim. Hard to make that one with the EU referendum still to come. One of the reasons I voted no was precisely because there was a chance of escaping the EU that way.[/quote]You knew that there was going to be a Tory government come 2016 even though they were behind in the polls in 2014 (so far so that Ruth Davidson acknowledged this in a TV debate)?

You’re wasting your time on here and I could do with the lottery numbers for tonight. Ta.

Well duckie, you could make a good example and make some points yourself, otherwise you are guilty of what you accuse others of.

There are lots of lies about what was promised pre the vote when Dave and his mates panicked at the rogue vote. But in the end it was left to the Smith Comm to put details on it. Do you agree so far? And at the start the SNP were happy? Ditto, still happ? But they later complained that they wanted more. Agreed? So far, so good.

Having read the report, I think Ben’s list and the recommendations diffe. But be that as it may. Lets take one of Ben’s points – the idea of a federal state. I am not aware of that being promised – but happy to be corrected if you want to play the ball – but I have already posted the conclusion of independent analysts which concludes that they is pretty much what has been achieved. They used that specific term. So much for not addressing the posts!!

Feel free to dispute any of the facts. Alternatively, carry on….

We were told that our EU membership was guaranteed if we voted No

Eh?

Care to point to any evidence of this claim Ben?

I recall Alex Salmond very specifically warning that a No vote could result in Scotland being “dragged out” of the EU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28980041

“The debate in Scotland is that we should not place ourselves in the position, given that we are only 8% of the UK population, of potentially being dragged out of the European Union against our wishes, against our will, which might be the position if we are foolish enough to have a ‘No’ vote in this referendum.”

We were told that our EU membership was guaranteed if we voted No.

No you weren’t. Absolutely not. I explained a few pages ago what the scenarios where Yes/No & Leave/Remain

What you wjere tood was a lie by Salmond that he had sought legal advice on EU status – when he had none

Ah Jamba – how could we forget:

If Indyref2 was tomorrow, I’d vote for Scotland to become an independent country, in spite of not really liking the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon, voting to Remain in the EU, voting No in Indyref1 and being born and raised in England. (now living in Scotland and married to Scot)

I wouldn’t necessarily be in favour of an independent Scotland rejoining the EU. That should be decided on it’s merits and what becomes of the EU post-Brexit.

My main reasoning is that independence would remove of a layer of Government and leave iScot and rUK to sort themselves out and take the paths best for each. There are going to be hard times ahead. These will be much more worthwhile if the end result(s) work better for each country.
In an Indyref2 debate the economic arguments are not going to be that strong on either side, hard times either way. I think arguments about control and self-governance will be much higher up the agenda. Even if an iScotland ceded governance to the EU by rejoining, it would still be one less layer of government compared to the current situation.

I believe Scotland will become independent at some point regardless so why not sooner rather than later? I’m basing that just how dominant the SNP are in Scotland (54 out of 59 constituencies) and the results of the EU vote in Scotland.

dmorts “In an Indyref2 debate the economic arguments are not going to be that strong on either side, hard times either way.”

Super .. sign me up.
Oh wait;
Heres a picture of scotlands spending on stuff in billions.

Can any of you tell me which 14.8 billion of that we will not fund in year 1 of independence? What about year 2, 3 or 4?

Even assuming massive growth in the Scottish economy, how many years before we get back to where we are now?

Answers including “we can borrow to cover the difference” will win the “Make Edinburgh the Athens of the North” award, and incidentally, also disqualify Scotland from joining the EU.

Believe in independence if you want to but at least look at the Scottish Governments own figures on the economy before assuming that calling something “project fear” means its just make believe (see Brexit).

Ah Jamba on an indy thread, makes me all nostalgic for his tireless defence of the fine man that is Alistair Carmichael.

On the other hand – can any of you tell me which of that 14.8 billion we’ll still be able to fund once post-brexit austerity really bites on the back of a widely predicted (further) slump in the the pound?