Scotland Indyref 2

So if I take a temporary secondment to another country (or even just a site in England) then I lose my say in the future of a country I intend to return to and make my life in?

Both immigrants and emigrants are awkward and you need some sort of time limit to ensure that transient immigrants don't vote and transient emigrants aren't excluded.

You again say that

people who live in a country should have the decisive say on how it is governed

For example, a USA immigrant with indefinite leave to remain (a precursor for British citizenship) would not have been entitled to vote.

I agree with your first point it's a matter of defining "transient" as you put it or "longterm" as I put it. Both Scottish and UK governments agreed that the referendum was for residents of Scotland only. "In the House of Lords, Baroness Symons argued that the rest of the UK should be allowed to vote on Scottish independence, on the grounds that it would affect the whole country. This argument was rejected by the British government, as the Advocate General for Scotland Lord Wallace said that "whether or not Scotland should leave the United Kingdom is a matter for Scotland" quoted from wikipedia
I am aware that some folk living in Scotland were excluded from the vote but didn't know that included those from outside the eu or commonwealth but with long term leave to remain. That seems unfair.

[url= https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OPs4c91U4ggD1XrHWGAig8YOoXbehVSEpGwaJJWtpc/pub ]The postal vote issue...[/url]

Very sad to read in this morning's Scottish Times the obituary of Sir Donald Mackay. An intelligent and balanced supporter of independence, a fine economist, true gentleman, wonderful family man and excellent host.

RIP Sir Donald

epicyclo - Member

Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.

I hadn't heard of this [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38155720?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38157481&link_location=live-reporting-story ]'listening exercise'[/url]

Have many people changed their views? Have you? Has there been a move to the Independence side?

A YouGov poll - 82% had not been approached either teaboy

Support for Indy as low as it was in 2014. 56 v 31 for not holding Indy Ref 2 and Yes / No is 38 v 49

Also roughly even between whether Scotland should try amd stay in the EU with big majority thinking its not possible

I hadn't heard of this 'listening exercise'

Have many people changed their views? Have you? Has there been a move to the Independence side?

I didn't respond to the questionnaire as it requested how I voted with personal details attached. And I wasn't alone.

I've gone from Yes to Meh.

44/56 with the don't knows and wouldn't votes taken out. Which would be a good starting point for the separatists, no-ones budging on either side in lieu of any campaigning.

Regards to whether there should be a ref before leave the EU, understandable, there's enough uncertainty right now without another scottish ref, so you can understand peoples reluctance. plus the independence vote was beaten, so i'd guess most are happy to see that through, for a bit.

incidentally, I'd never heard of the listening survey.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/db76febc-d782-11e6-9063-500e6740fc32

good article.

Alex Massie is one of the better unionist writers and he has a point about a truly confident culture not needing to proclaim it's origin. However to claim that the Scottish community,Gaels or Scots speakers are less capable of honest criticism in a cultural context is absolute nonsense
Ailig Massie S e aon de na sgrìobhadairean nas fheàrr Aonaidh agus tha ea 'phuing mu dha-rìribh misneachail cultar nach eil feumach air gu reachd a ghairm e nàiseantachd. Ge-tà gu bheil na h-Alba coimhearsnachd a tha nas lugha comasach onarach càineadh ann an co-theacsa cultarail a tha iomlan gun bhrìgh
Alex Massie is yin o the better scriveners frae a unionist view. He makes a guid point that a richt confident culture wad nae hae feel only need tae proclaim whaur it's frae. Forby a that tae claim that Scots,Gaels or Scots speakers are less capable of honest criticism in a cultural context is nocht but havers

I don't think he's criticizing the Scottish community gaels or scots speakers, he's have a sly dig at the SNP and their hordes, which is fair comment imo. There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.

Plus on the comment of Scots, well, I'd say it's just a dialect of English to the majority of Scots, it may have been something different years ago, but what you just wrote above is an English dialect not a a different language. You've also the likes of Gaelics signs everywhere, which are a nonsense.

Regardless, I think the main point is there's a contrivance on the Nat side, which I would struggle to disagree with.

There's certainly some on both sides of the debate who see supporters of the other side as an unthinking homogeneous mass. I agree with you about some of the SNP supporters. Though it is not confined to them nor to the wider independence movement. Back to Massie I think he was claiming that those people who choose to do their art in a Scottish idiom are less capable of honest criticism than what he called the anglophone community.
There have been few Scots and particularly few working class Scots at the head of the various institutions which fund and promote the arts in Scotland. I think this is due to social class not nationality, and the old Scottish cringe ie.something or someone from anywhere else must be better than it's Scottish counterpart.
I am not really bothered intellectually whether Scots is a language or a dialect. It's part. of our culture and has a literature and songs of it's own and should be supported.
I am embarrassed that I now write Gaelic which I learned as an adult better than the Scots I grew up speaking.
The Gaelic signs are only going up as and when the old ones need replaced so they're hardly everywhere

It's part. of our culture and has a literature and songs of it's own and should be supported.

Agreed

There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.

That there is a limited number of people now coming out with Gaelic around here (to distinguish themselves as Scottish) is very forced. This was a Scots region, not Gaelic speaking...

Lots of reasons for learning Gaelic or any language. Mine was family ties and just plain interest in the language.

grumpysculler - Member
There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.
That there is a limited number of people now coming out with Gaelic around here (to distinguish themselves as Scottish) is very forced. This was a Scots region, not Gaelic speaking...

I've no problem with people learning Gaelic, ffs look at my name! 😆 I just think the signs were purely for tourism reasons, which was fine, but you get them all over the shop now, so there's clearly a political bent for them, imo.

As for people speaking Gaelic, more power to them, that is substance that I wouldn't disagree with. There are links there that are nearer in time than 500/1000 years ago(it was gaelic speaking at some point in the past). My own granny and grandas first language was gaelic before the came over here in the 1930s/40s and got anglicised. I do wish they had taught me, nothing to do with any nationalistic feeling though(to ireland), that really doesn't concern me, I place no value in nationalism. I do think being bilingual would have been beneficial, something their working class backgrounds obviously didn't factor in, cause they never even passed it down to my father. (I guess there's a whole other story to the reason why there, but that's a different discussion.)

So May's hard Brexit and sucking up to Trump has pushed indyref support to its highest level...

I think exposing Tory councils in the SE benefiting from bribes will push it over the edge

RIP UK

[img] [/img]

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14903840.Treasury_mandarin_who_warned_against_currency_union_now_says_Scotland_leaving_UK_is_now__a_golden_opportunity_/

interesting - and of course pretty much what the pro independence folk have been saying but nice to see someone who was so unionist last time changing so dramatically

Tremendous. Scotland as a financial centre, thats what the SNP and its voters are looking for eh ? How can you have a financial centre with no central bank ? Also as stated a million times and recently reaffirmed by the EU itself an Indy Scorland would have to rejoin the EU from scratch. That takes 5-10 years.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/eus-chief-brexit-negotiator-agrees-8796253

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-would-fast-tracked-9798523

At no point in either of those links does the content match the headline.

Jamba, that's balls, but you keep repeating it, you might believe it one day. Only real stumbling block to joining is bringing your law into line with EU law. And considering Scotlands law is already in line. It would suggest that from scratch is just nonsense. And the is no queue either that alot of people seem to think.

Not to say that I'd want us to join right away. I'd rather play hard to get anyhow. Don't really see any benefit to looking too lean to get in.

But you go on bring up the Spanish. We all know that's your next port of call. 😆

Only real stumbling block to joining is bringing your law into line with EU law.

You should probably look up the Fiscal Stability Pact, you would need to reduce your deficit from nearly 10% to 3% before joining.

It would be amusing to watch a so-called anti austerity party tackling the reduction of their deficit alone. Especially when they know that raising income tax is such a bad idea!!

But at least the mandarin starts from a sensible position - a Scottosh currency and all that requires eg Central Bank etc. but imagine for one moment the responsibility of regulating and being responsible for good old RBS! Then then more obvious question - where would you locate if you ae a major financial company: rUK with the BoE as your lender of last resort or Scotland with a new, untested one. What would happened to their costs of capital and finding if they made the silly choice?

But at least there is a logical constistncy to independence and an independent curescy - the crucial element tha yS tried to bluff last time. But of course that logical consistency completely evaporates when you then have to move the € - fast tracked or not - and then give up monetary, fiscal and political independence to an even more detached body that Westminster. The elephant this time is bigger and much more obvious than all the little 670 elephants that filled the room in the last "debate" - indy2 would have.more lies than Brexshit which would be quite something.

The spinning of his lack of logically thinking will be very amusing to watch as will be the negotiations and cost of trade with Scotlands main trading partner, Anyone remember who that is?

#SDBMB

The MTO is the central concept of the preventive arm that serves to ensure sustainable public finances and compliance with the 3% of GDP deficit criterion in all but the most unusual adverse circumstances. According to the preventive arm of the SGP, countries must attain the MTO or be on an appropriate adjustment path towards it.

brexit = "the most unusual adverse circumstances"

Also notice the adjustment path bit

Love how you still insist on putting Rbs failure at the feet of Scotland thm.. a bank (de 😆 )regulated under UK law. Show me where the Scottish parliament was involved there?

btw there's also a 60% debt limit aswell. 17 out of 28 Eu states are in breach of it. (FYI, 6 also breach the deficit limit too, including the good ole uk.)

No I don't Joe, I merely point out the challenges of regulating and back-stopping insitutions of that size. But don't worry, they will decamp their HQ well before that. The would be stupid not to.

So give me the logic to joining the Euro (assuming it still exists by then - ah there it is!!!)

We don't join the euro. (see Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, none use the Euro.)

Thing is here, the currency question was important last time because of non commitment of the SNP to go with one option, and the argument "we'll just keep the pound" seemed evasive, which it absolutely was (essentially alex didn't want to say we'll create a scottish currency called the pound, which is what he ment imo.)

It's pretty much accepted now that scotland would start it's own currency, so the currency argument no longer works.

As for RBS decamping their head quarters, happy days, see you later. I'm pretty certain we'll be able to create another bank to fill the void.

No he'd didn't - he was BS on the currency because he didn't have an answer and was bluffing. He got caught with his pants down,

Plus you know why the Euro is an issue, just choosing to ignore it. Ok, thats nothing new.

So lets accept a Scpttish pound - why would you want to increase the costs and challenges of trading with Scotland's largets trading partner? That illogical. Where possible you do exactly the opposite - unless you are narcissists who believe that your own interests > those of the Scottish people. Again nothing new there.

#SDBMB

So let me get this straight, your argument is, don't go or we're going to hammer you with trading costs?

Nice! Guess it's progress, and better than don't go, youse are useless! 😆

I have never been in the "you're useless" camp as you know. I have consistently argued thatt Scots (mostly!) are FAR too canny to fall for nonsense. They demonstrated that wih Brexshit.

It wouldn't be us hammering you with trading costs - you would be doing that yourself - pure self harm A new volatile peteocurrency is just what nobody needs....

...but then of course you would then be compounding this by joining the Euro with all tha entails. Self harm #2

#SDBMB

Love how you still insist on putting Rbs failure at the feet of Scotland thm.. a bank (de )regulated under UK law. Show me where the [u]Scottish parliament was involved[/u] there?

Nice, delibaretly careful, wording there.

Let's not forget:

[img] [/img]

MacPherson actually wrote the original FT article which is quoted in today's National late last summer.
I would favour having our own currency and I am optimistic that the EU would make a deal.

Another interesting stat re performance of scotland under UK rule, and comparing it with countries that are close by and of similar population.

Country - population (m) GDP per capita (thousands)

Scotland - 5.4 - 30
Ireland - 3.4 - 61
sweden - 2.2 - 70
denmark - 1.8 - 60
beligium - 6.4 - 46
norway - 5.5 - 61

So perhaps, these new trade cost wont be so difficult to pay for when our GDP rises to the level it should be at...

UK rule = piss poor performance. (for reference, UK as a whole is 41, so even as a whole the UK is under performing..)

QT from glasgow just started, i expect it'll be the usual drivel mind! 😆

It's not a good panel!

Turned over from Newsnight, might turn back.

Angry lady is enough off a tartan turn off!!

Jambas favourite Baroness is on too!

Still after your persecution of rare animals thread (unintentional mind) we have another one here - a real tartan Tory

Another interesting stat re performance of scotland under UK rule, and comparing it with countries that are close by and of similar population.

Blimey, shocking figures indeed. Can you imagine how much worse off Scotland would be without all the assistance it receives from the UK 😯

@seaso the rukes about joining the euro and new members have changed since Sweden/Denmark/UK and those other countries are so weak economically they don't qualify. Scotland's only route to avoiding the euro would be to be as poor as Romania.

chakrabati fair got clamped in her portayal of the family against family civil war she was trying to project! 😆

jambalaya - Member
Another interesting stat re performance of scotland under UK rule, and comparing it with countries that are close by and of similar population.

Blimey, shocking figures indeed. Can you imagine how much worse off Scotland would be without all the assistance it receives from the UK

A wee bit shouty Scotch 😉

The BS on rights of EU citizens right now is funny

mundell does have a panto style face that requires skelping. so understandable! 😆

Very, very angry indeed... 😀

Whey hey, a good question now...

Littlewood missing the obvious EU flaw ie, no mechanism for recycling surpluses, unlike the UK. At least angry lady admits that no one knows what the EU is going to look like.

Mark littlewood wood seems like a reasonable chap.

Carefully Joe, he runs a free market think tank!!

Quality [s]shouting[/s] debate now between the two MSPs!!! 😉

dunno why swinney didn't just state the obvious there that 55% voting to stay and the uk, and 62% voting to stay in the EU are irreconcilable and only way to solve that conundrum is to put the question back to the public.

Why doesn't he say let's have another vote tomorrow, do,you think? 😉

teamhurtmore - Member
edit: wrong quote! Carefully Joe, he runs a free market think tank!!

aye wasn't vouchng for him for life, just on the points he made on that particular subject! 😆

Aye and I know which one!!!

I doubt you liked the man in the blue jumper though 😉

Is that stat about more scots voted to stay in the UK than to stay in the EU true?

eamhurtmore - Member
Is that stat about more scots voted to stay in the UK than to stay in the EU true?

the other way about, more voted to stay in the EU.

agree with him again, get the politicians out of education. 😆

Hear, hear.

You might want to check the stats!!! Check 2m to 1.66m !!

Odd that the teachers in the audience are anti the Scottish curriculum and a givernment who claims to prioritise education and be judged on it!!! 😉

You might want to check the stats!!! Check 2m to 1.66m !!

didn't know you ment absolute number, aye in that case yes. Refs don't get counted on total numbers though, so if people don't get off their arse tough titty, they simply increase the value of everyone elses vote.

Regardless I still support waiting longer to call a ref anyhow. I don't personally believe coming out of the Brexit/ coming out of the EU is a valid pretext for a referendum. If you're going to have a ref, it should be based on what best for scotland not pure opportunism!

I'd still vote aye the morra though! 😆

Turn out was only 67% for the EU referendum way below turnout for the indyref hence the win in Scotland for Remain with only 1.6 million votes.
First time I have seen qt for a very long time, seems like it may have improved a little in terms of audience composition but I won't miss it.

Indeed and yet the common narrative is that Scotland voted overwhelming to stay in the EU (1,66m) but only just to stay in the UK (2m) 😉

"Only" 20% more Scots voted for staying in the Uk than for staying in EU !!! Good old SNP spinning.

You spin me round, round baby, right round, like a record... 😉

This from someone who spins more than these

teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed and yet the common narrative is that Scotland voted overwhelming to stay in the EU (1,66m) but only just to stay in the UK (2m)

"Only" 20% more Scots voted for staying in the Uk than for staying in EU !!! Good old SNP spinning.

You spin me round, round baby, right round, like a record...

But still 1 result v another separate result. They are irreconcilable regardless of how you spin it.

True on the first point and we can leave the numbers spat to JK Rowling and old weasel words (the comments in the Guardian piece in that are quite funny!)

Sleep well!!

Well TMs speech today seems to have been designed to push any wavering unionists toward voting for indy

In the same way that Maybot's hard Brexit appears to be uniting Ireland it will be dividing mainland britain

🙂

tom devines interview is more interesting. better than harking on about sound bites.

worth a read.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15130574.Sir_Tom_Devine__My_fears_for_Scotland_in_the_wake_of_Brexit/

Cheers seosamh, good read.

Yes, we'll written piece (when it eventually downloads). Thx for the link Joe.

Tom Devine; be still my beating heart!

Yeah, nice one Jamba. I wonder if Portillo (as a 2nd generation immigrant) will get his marching orders post brexit!

That's a good analysis. though I think he underestimates the willingness of May and her cronies (and a substantial part of the public) to charge eagerly over the hard Brexit cliff.

Whether A50 is triggered when May says it will be is going to be the trigger.

So late 2018

hoping that the Brexit negotiations will be dragging out and all the fears of a hard brexit can be capitalised on?

Bring it on.

The biggest challenge
Will be the SNP convincing people that they can come up with a believable economic strategy post indy, would also require a lot of work with the EU.
Its a big ask!

In the SNPs favour
The government will be increasingly absorbed by Brexit (if Mays patronising speech was anything to go by that may or may not be a bad thing)
If we continue sucking up to Trump it will not do unionists any favours.
I predict that Corbyn will be as effective as he was during EU ref campaigning- Gordon Brown wont be there the way he was to save camerons bacon, and labour were burnt out in Scotland by the last indyref anyway.

They need to convince people that a vote for independence is not a vote for SNP, indeed if anything it will offer a labour 'type' party the opportunity to rise (but not RISE!) from the ashes of the current pit they find themselves in, and not a half arsed party who has to appeal to middle England.

The currency issue was the big one, alongside the 'not getting into Europe' tripe the last time. The latter is now a lot more straightforward, the former needs to be clarified.

There are still many questions from the last campaign that need answered, will be interesting to see if they actually come up something useful

Mostly though, I'm just looking forward to people being complete ****s to each other for a good year or so. Was great fun the last time round....

SNP will be praying my eurozone predictions are wrong. Still my view May/Westminster will not grant a binding Referendum in 2018, SNP will have to push on with a "unilateral" one.

UK out of EU by March 2019, Sep 2018 Referendum means a massive scramble required by SNP to come up with an EU plan plus a proper answer to the currency problem. Hard Brexit means WTO tariffs for Scotland's trade with rUK or certainky the very real threat of that from Westminster. Welsh lamb vs Scottish, no financial services cross sell (Edinburgh is totally reliable on financial services "exports" to rUK) ?

Nobeer explain how getting back into the EU will be more straighforward ?

I missed the bit when Indy5 timing was the unilateral responsibility of wee nippy

Still seems that she is still hedging her best and testing the wind.

Still ^2 exactly (not) what the Scottish economy and people need right now. Stability is an over-rated condition clearly.

Watch our for plenty of hard, cliff-edges.....

[quote=Nobeerinthefridge ]
the former needs to be clarified.

Yes, this was the big deal breaker for me. The petty "we'll use the pound" nonsense was very annoying.

Just say we'll use our own Scottish pound. No need for the Euro even as a "new" member of the EU, just a non-committal agreement to use the Euro at some point.

[url= https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10499/ipsos-mori-poll-half-scots-now-support-independence ]Modest increase in support for indy[/url]

Support for independence does seem to be growing slowly. Take your polls with care though.

It does look like autumn 18. In many ways the unionist campaign never stopped

[quote=gordimhor ]Modest increase in support for indy
Support for independence does seem to be growing slowly. Take your polls with care though.
It does look like autumn 18. In many ways the unionist campaign never stopped

I was a no voter. I'm now yes.

Every single no voter I've personally spoken to is now yes.

Nobeer explain how getting back into the EU will be more straighforward ?

Bad wording, I meant the threat of booting us out of the EU, by wheeling out dodgy Spaniards with vested interests, is now less of an issue.