Scotland Indyref 2

unelected Westminster millionaire writing a pompous letter to Scottish first minister telling him who hes allowed to talk to

Foreign affairs is outside the Scottish Government’s powers. I thought the SNP were all about constitutional principles this week? Yousaf is out of his (very shallow) depth speaking to Erdoğan about Gaza. Not a surprise that wily fox made a beeline for someone who is otherwise a second tier politician at COP, and Yousaf doesn’t have a long enough spoon. Still, I expect the SNP will be treating Yousaf the same way as other parties treated other ministers engaging in freelance diplomacy…

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/9/uk-minister-priti-patel-resigns-over-secret-israel-trip

Did Fairlie have anything to say about the investigation into Sturgeon’s husband’s other expensive car? I can’t get onto Twitter.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23980380.police-check-95k-car-bought-peter-murrell-snp-cash-probe/

If it was the other way round the Nats would be losing their shit and rightly so, it’s only fair that the rules are applied equally. If there are established protocols that he’s ignoring then he deserves it.

The “other way around”?  Show me an example.

And funny how Sturgeon etc have still not been up in front of a Judge – it’s almost like nothing illegal has occurred and the UK Govt is just stringing it along to the next General Election.

Er.. you can’t think of an example where the NATS are upset because Westminster is attempting to exert its authority over what it believes are devolved matters???

Er.. you can’t think of an example where the NATS are upset because Westminster is attempting to exert its authority over what it believes are devolved matters???

Exactly this.

Why don’t we start with former EU powers going straight to Westminster. Bottle deposit scheme. GRA.

That enough big topic examples for you?

You said:

Yousef starts buggering about with reserved matters and gets wings clipped. Non story as far as I’m concerned.

Since when was the Head of the Scottish Govt talking to foreign leaders “reserved matters”?

And waiting on your comments on the Sturgeon ‘case’.

Funny how you’re all using the term “NATS”, this is our Govt, elected by our voters – wonder if you three voted for Brexit too?

“Since when was the Head of the Scottish Govt talking to foreign leaders “reserved matters”?”

Since the Scotland Act was passed. The Scottish Parliament has foreign affairs in the list of reserved matters.

https://www.parliament.scot/about/how-parliament-works/devolved-and-reserved-powers

Nice, you know nothing about me or my voting history but still make up utter shite, you couldn’t be further from the truth. And it’s my government too thanks very much, I learned all about devolved and reserved powers since it’s first years were whilst I was still at school and we learned it in great detail. Maybe you should look at doing some classes to get yourself up to speed.

And what comments have you invited from me on the Sturgeon case? What does it even have to do with this? FWIW I have no idea why you think Westminster would have any dealing in it since it’s a Police Scotland matter, policing being a devolved power.

Yousaf is out of his (very shallow) depth speaking to Erdoğan about Gaza. Not a surprise that wily fox made a beeline for someone who is otherwise a second tier politician at COP, and Yousaf doesn’t have a long enough spoon. 

By jumping in and immediately belittling the FM I think youve made made point about this being a gift to the SNP , rather nicely

Since the Scotland Act was passed. The Scottish Parliament has foreign affairs in the list of reserved matters.

oooft…owned..

wonder if you three voted for Brexit too?

Hmm, so you’ve just shown to be wrong & thus resort to a quick ad hominem attack. I’m a fervent remainer BTW*, not that that has anything to do with the price of fish. Sometimes I wonder what why we ever bother having a discussion on the internet.

* & a consistenely Green voting Vegetarian. Not that that has anything to do with the price of fish either

Owned?  Seems not:

First Minister of Scotland – Wikipedia

Whilst foreign policy remains a reserved matter,<sup id=”cite_ref-26″ class=”reference” style=”line-height: 1; unicode-bidi: isolate; text-wrap: nowrap; font-size: 11.2px; color: #202122; font-family: sans-serif;”>[25]</sup> the Scottish Government, and the First Minister, may promote the economy and Scottish interests on the world stage and encourage foreign businesses, international devolved, regional and central governments to invest in Scotland.

I’m a fervent remainer BTW*

Enough to attack a ruling Party that has a mandate to join the EU, not that “fervent” it seems – bigger picture needs to be seen.

FWIW I have no idea why you think Westminster would have any dealing in it since it’s a Police Scotland matter, policing being a devolved power.

Sure it is, except when it’s decided that it’s a risk to the UK…

Who is attacking the SNP? All anyone has done is acknowledge that interfering with reserved matters and/or not following established protocol has consequences. It’s you doing the attacking here, not us.

You can’t have it both ways and cry foul when the other side don’t follow the rules if you don’t respect them yourself, it does nothing for the standing of a Scottish government of any colour.

I think you’ll find that Wheesht for Indy means that the Ruling Party must not be criticised. 

Who is attacking the SNP? All anyone has done is acknowledge that interfering with reserved matters and/or not following established protocol has consequences. It’s you doing the attacking here, not us.

Nice to see you accepting that talking to foreign Govts isn’t purely “a reserved matter” – except I missed it.

Whilst you’re looking at Higher/Nat5 Modern Studies courses I’d suggest Standard Grade English to clear up the and/or confusion 🙄

Doing wonders for the cause, just not the one you’re fighting for. *slow claps*

I may be (wildly) wrong but was that bit about Scottish Ministers not being able to meet foreign diplomats without a UK chaperone introduced fairly recently? I don’t recall there being the same response as regards previous such meetings. 

Whilst foreign policy remains a reserved matter, the Scottish Government, and the First Minister, may promote the economy and Scottish interests on the world stage and encourage foreign businesses, international devolved, regional and central governments to invest in Scotland.

…and chatting to Erdoğan about Gaza achieves that how, exactly?

By jumping in and immediately belittling the FM…

Yeah, luckily I’m not in PR.

Let’s be serious: Humza is the unelected leader of a subnational government on the edge of Europe who’s heading for an electoral bruising thanks to his predecessor’s high jinks and his own government’s ineptitude. Erdoğan has been in power for 20 years controlling a population that’s 15 times larger than Scotland, and with his claws in at least four wars. They’re not in the same league at all – it’s Maradona meeting one of those fisherman that plays for the Faroe Islands national team.

funny how Sturgeon etc have still not been up in front of a Judge – it’s almost like nothing illegal has occurred and the UK Govt is just stringing it along

● CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT ●

Police Scotland and COPFS are not accountable to, or directed by, the UK Government. UK Govt couldn’t give a shit about meddling in the Sturgeon investigation, they’re too busy nuking the economy. Sunak and Braverman couldn’t find Scotland on a map. If they could, they’d propose sending people there instead of Rwanda.

I may be (wildly) wrong but was that bit about Scottish Ministers not being able to meet foreign diplomats without a UK chaperone introduced fairly recently? I don’t recall there being the same response as regards previous such meetings. 

I believe it’s protocol for a wider range than just MSPs, it’s standard to liaise with the FCDO to make sure whatever is being discussed isn’t going against agreements/policy/etc already in place, or being worked on, it’s standard stuff, same as you going to another company talking to someone about something that could have an impact on your companies relationship with the other company. It’s nothing sinister, i believe opposition parties, other devolved areas, well anyone within the UK should liaise beforehand, or take an official with them during discussions.

As for this story, i’m more disappointed in the leak of the letter, that’s pretty poor form, especially in the way they’re using it for political gain here. Should’ve been kept quiet like it was beforehand, and worked out, focus on genuine politics, there’s enough of it around these days!

Sunak and Braverman couldn’t find Scotland on a map. If they could, they’d propose sending people there instead of Rwanda.

If they are writing cheques for £250M for nothing in return Scotland will happily fulfill this role!

As for this story, i’m more disappointed in the leak of the letter, that’s pretty poor form, especially in the way they’re using it for political gain here.

Who leaked it?  Could be someone on Cameron’s team playing “keep the Scots in check” or it could be someone on Humza’s team playing “WM telling us how to behave” card…

It’s being used via a MSPs feed, so I’d say it’s leaked through the party. It’s also worth asking that whatever was said, made its way back to the FCDO, so guessing Erdogan and/or his advisors weren’t in full agreement with Humza. 

Again, there’s a time for politics, Humza needs to understand this one is no win, bar to those already in the bag for votes. 

@argee – I can definitely see the point in not having various officials stepping outside UK foreign policy but I’m fairly sure there was a recent change. I’ll do some digging to confirm/refute that. In any case this recent incident seems to have attracted an attention denied to previous occasions. I also see that it wasn’t just Erdogan that Yousaf met, at least four other foreign officials are now mentioned. 

Given it was COP and that Scotland has energy policies not fully aligned to English ones, it’s not unreasonable for Yousaf to have been there talking about them. However, the Cameron letter is also exactly the sort of thing that the SNP would lap up as showing how belligerent the UK Govt is. It’s therefore a bit of a gift to them that a more intelligent politician might have avoided. 

Further to my previous post… If this had happened when Alex Salmond was FM I’d have assumed it was all part of his plan. I don’t believe Humza Yousaf is that clever/devious*

* – delete as appropriate.

However, the Cameron letter is also exactly the sort of thing that the SNP would lap up as showing how belligerent the UK Govt is. It’s therefore a bit of a gift to them that a more intelligent politician might have avoided. 

the abusive response its brought on social media (& on here) is exactly what the SNP want though i agree it seems to have happened to yousaf rather than him plotting it

the Cameron letter is also exactly the sort of thing that the SNP would lap up as showing how belligerent the UK Govt is…

…and also the kind of thing that the Tories would lap up as showing how constitutionally oblivious the Scottish Govt is…

This is probably one of those unusual situation where the target and the perpetrator end up happy.

I think this is the latest Scotland gov thread. So we have a budget out for next year https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67759183

For what the income tax would be for me (as it is – not to do with the changes), I could probably convince myself to consider it a small tax on every ride and walk.

I spoke to someone once who thought company pay bands should be higher north of the border to account for the higher taxes, which I thought was a bit odd. But I guess when you push costs onto anyone, they’ll try to push them on to others, and market forces will determine what succeeds.

Ah, it’ll not have a huge effect on most, tax increase is the headline, but it’ll be the other issues that’ll be the slow burners over the next year i’d guess, such as potential job losses, service cuts, etc that may occur to balance the budget, but that’s just day to day running of a government and the politics that’ll no doubt get in the way of that.

Apparently dangerous “English” Bully XL dogs are being shipped north because they won’t be illegal in Scotland: https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/18lzwet/more_xlbullies_with_a_history_of_violence_finding/

Perhaps the time pontificating about Gaza (which is outside the Scottish parliament’s area of competance) should have been spent on dangerous dogs (which the Scottish parliament could have done something about).
https://www.gov.scot/news/scottish-parliament-votes-for-immediate-israel-gaza-ceasefire/

Don’t know enough about Bully XLs, or how they’ll be monitored and so on in Scotland, though not a fan of heavily manipulated dog breeds in the main, yes i know most are, but some more than others, pugs as well.

As for the Gaza thing, as in all responses i just state it is being politicised too much for my liking, let the UN do their thing, that vote has been delayed until tomorrow now, mainly due to terminology (i believe the word ‘ceasefire’ is still an issue, and a ‘suspension’ may be worded) and caveats, as the US is running the show and the middle eastern countries are being brought in to work out how it affects the region and work out solutions they can live with, the UK, including Scotland, aren’t a player in this, bar through the UN.

Perhaps if every world leader had family living in Gaza the situation would look very different today.

Sometimes it’s not politics and instead it’s just someone being a human being.

politecameraaction does make me laugh on scots politics.  Why such hatred for the Scots government?  Its it because they try to ameliorate the devastating cuts the Tories have made while trying to look after the poor, the old and the sick?

If you are on benefits and have kids you are significantly better off in Scotland.  the Scots NHS has not had the strikes we have seen down south because they will actually sit down with the unions.  If you are disabled you are significantly better off with no private companies doing assessments that are incentivised to make folk fail the assessments instead the assessments are done by well trained public sector employees

Scots nurses are better paid than in England.

NO overt racism in our government up here

|If you earn less than the average wage you pay a bit less tax

If you  are rich you pay a bit more tax.

Maybe if they had family in every conflict, every time, but they don’t, maybe those human beings are working together for the best case outcome, via the UN vote, and wheeling and dealing behind the scenes with the US and those nations being affected by the conflict in the middle east.

Almost everybody wants a lasting ceasefire/cessation/suspension/etc and to work on rebuilding, but for that to happen a deal has to be reached that is agreeable to all sides and all actors in this conflict and affected by the conflict.

Perhaps the time pontificating about Gaza (which is outside the Scottish parliament’s area of competance) should have been spent on dangerous dogs (which the Scottish parliament could have done something about).

The Dangerous Dogs act is already a crock of shite, we don’t need more knee jerk laws thanks.

As for the Gaza thing, as in all responses i just state it is being politicised too much for my liking, let the UN do their thing, that vote has been delayed until tomorrow now,

To put it politely you can gtf with calling it too politicised, what is being done to innocent civilians in Gaza with our leaders political backs being turned as our government and weapon manufacturers supply them with equipment to aid in the destruction of life is utterly abhorrent and should be on everyone’s minds and the number one talking point.

To put it politely you can gtf with calling it too politicised, what is being done to innocent civilians in Gaza with our leaders political backs being turned as our government and weapon manufacturers supply them with equipment to aid in the destruction of life is utterly abhorrent and should be on everyone’s minds and the number one talking point.

Israel pretty much produce their own weapons and military equipment, with assistance via the US, not even sure if they UK provide any ‘weapons’, and again, what does having side votes in parliament do that the UN aren’t already doing, with the UK sitting as a permanent member?

No – we export loads of guns and bombs to Israel – as we do to other countries in conflict.  UK is one of the biggest arms exporters in the world

The UK has licenced arms worth over £442 million to Israel between May 2015 and August 2022, according to analysis of Government export data by the Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), a UK based pressure group that seeks an end to the global arms trade.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0223/

UK arms sales to Israel

OpenDemocracy on arms sales

House of Commons briefings

F35 is a joint programme across many nations, the F35 is licensed and sold by the US, not the UK. The ‘arms’ sales relate pretty much in totality to technology, i.e. systems, not weapons, i don’t see any mention of UK ‘guns and bombs’, to my knowledge, we don’t really make any these days, we tend to buy from other nations, such as the US, France, Sweden, Switzerland, etc.

i don’t see any mention of UK ‘guns and bombs’,

I did not mention “guns and bombs or weapons” in my post above, we do supply the targeting systems for such weapons though, and provide training and continual support

The UK provide export licenses, not the above, that’s done by companies based in the UK

P.S before this goes completely off path, this argument is all about how much sway the UK has over Israel, pretty much none these days