Scotland Indyref 2

The current debate is about whether or not the people of Scotland have the right to choose at all. Once we’ve cleared that one up there will be plenty of time for thinking about what a post-Indy Scotland might be like.

I am going for the “no decision as no bill has been presented yet” option. Fudge.

Two ferries, and as to drug deaths, the figures aren’t just illegal drugs, they include all overdoses, so some old grannie overdoes the codeine, into the figures they go.

As to the rest. Isn’t that down to the block grant* Scotland receives funding for things like the NHS etc from central government.

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Not 100% sure as to the details of this, so if someone can fully explain how it works. But i think thats pretty much how funding works for Scotland.

Two ferries

It’s a lot worse than that.

dyna ti

The scots government has some tax raising powers but very limited and deliberately designed so that the SNP cannot make the changes they would like. thats a small% of the budget tho. Most of the budget is defined by the barnett formula / block grant and the scots government has no borrowing powers so yes – the amount they have to spend is limited and effectively fixed so increased spending in one area means cuts in another and cuts in the english budget means cuts in the scottish one as well

As for Scotland getting the govt it votes for? It has the SNP who are responsible for most of the day to day stuff that effects people’s lives. Health, education, police, fire, local govt, etc etc.

with no powers in many areas including very limited taxation powers, no power over the grossly unfair rigged power market, no borrowing powers etc etc. the SNP are very limited in what they can do because they have such limited finance powers

Scotland has voted for left of centre governments for the last 70 years and has had them for a few years only and even then not as left as Scotland voted.

On the drugs deaths – they are bad. its mainly down to poverty. The SNP government wanted to put in supervised shooting galleries in Glasgow to give the addicts some protection from overdosage. Drug law powers are westminster not Scotland. The tories in london refused permission to take this step which would have cut deaths dramatically.

So the SNP get beaten with a stick over the deaths but have no powers to reduce the root cause – poverty or to take the best harm reduction path – shooting galleries

It shows the limitations of devolution exactly. the tories want the drug deaths to remain high to give a stick to beat the SNP with

The current debate is about whether or not the people of Scotland have the right to choose at all. Once we’ve cleared that one up there will be plenty of time for thinking about what a post-Indy Scotland might be like.

+1

And we’ll elect a Govt with the priorities we want, just like we do now, but this time they’ll control ALL the ‘levers’.

Hopefully there will be a full and clear definition of how ALL the shared assets/liabilities will be divided that will be published before the vote and hopefully there won’t be any minor oversights and there won’t be the need for massive amounts of consultancy/legal fees to sort it all out if it happens.

Towser

the problem with that is to have that analysis needs the co operation of westminster and last time that was lacking. the SNP published their proposals but without westminster input in can only be a proposal.

But presumably there is a ‘list’ somewhere that identifies everything and for that list there is a clear full statement on how Scotland thinks things should be divided. I don’t see what cooperation is needed to get to that point.

Yes that did exist at the last referendum and was relentlessly rubbished by better together who refused to make their own list.

Take the issue of the nuclear subs. Scotland does not want them here. rUK has nowhere else to put them. That needs a negotiation.

Options would be :
1) give rUK a short deadline to remove them
2) give a long deadline to remove them and charge rent on the base
3) accept they will stay here and use that as a bargaining chip to get something else

the SNP cannot come up with a definitive answer on that without westminister input. Westminster refuses to give any input and then slates the SNP for not having answers

Or take the bank of England / the £

SNP said we would use the £ in the medium term. Westminster said we will not allow you. The bank of England is the UK reserve bank and 9% of it thus belongs to scotland and rUK would not be able to stop iScotland using it anyway

Again WEstminster refused to discuss it at all and then attacks the SNP for not having firm plans

how can you make plans when the people you need to negotiate with refuse to engage?

A lot of this stuff depends on how hardball Westminster / rUK plays.

Scotland has no legal liability for the UK debt ( this was made clear last time) but the SNP accepted they would take a fair share of the debt in exchange for a fair share of the assets – but again without input from westminster no firm figures can be given

Sounds like it’ll be really long and expensive. Yahoo, just what we need.

It’s a no from the courts

Only if westminster are uncooperative

As I said. No indyref.

So its not a union of equals nor consensual then.

Supreme Court has just said ‘Nae danger’ 🙄

Next GE in Scotland is going to be wild then. A not illogical verdict based on the law as it stands but it makes clear Scotland is subservient to England. Next GE as a defacto referendum it is.

As I said. No indyref.

That’s it then, it’s over 😀

UK government: ‘Silence, subjects! We make the rules here!’
The people of Scotland: ‘Oh, fair enough then. We’ll just continue toiling away under a government we don’t want and didn’t vote for. We’re ever so grateful.’

Aye,like a cute (if sometimes angry) wee dug, keep it on a tight leash, give it occasional treats and muzzle it if it starts nipping 😉

That’s it then, it’s over

Its not over but that makes the subservience of Scotland to England clear and makes the path much harder.

Take the issue of the nuclear subs. Scotland does not want them here.

That’s a sweeping statement, I know plenty of Scots who want them.

Ok – the vast majority of Scots.

Ok – the vast majority of Scots.

Define “vast majority”? 51%? 60%?

I think the last couple of polls were showing around 60% in favour of retaining nuclear weapons in Scotland.

UK government: ‘Silence, subjects! We make the rules here!’

Who made the rule? I don’t think it was this government.

I’ve no interest either way on Scottish independence, but I’m glad the rules can’t just be changed because it doesn’t suit someones agenda.

I just looked at the polls – varies tremendously depend who asked what question from under 40% retention to over 50%

That’s a sweeping statement, I know plenty of Scots who want them

It would be a bit ridiculous to expect a unanimous decision on, well, anything, in a country of 5.5 million people!

The people of Scotland: ‘Oh, fair enough then. We’ll just continue toiling away under a government we don’t want and didn’t vote for. We’re ever so grateful.’

That’s democracy, suck it up. Loads of the country is doing the same thing without claiming that they shouldn’t have to.

NB this post might be deliberately provocative, but it does boil my piss a bit that so many people here are happy to lump all the English together regardless of political inclination, but get all pissy when the British get lumped together. This is why I get irritated.

Support for keeping Trident in Scotland is now higher than support for removing it. Russia has changed many people’s thinking this year. It has mine.

I just looked at the polls – varies tremendously depend who asked what question from under 40% retention to over 50%

Where the polls before or after the Ukraine war?

That’s democracy, suck it up.

No its not . Its totally undemocratic. We have elected a scottish government with a manifesto committment to have an independence referendum on multiple occasions. to be denied that is a huge affront to democracy

What this judgement along with the attitude of the Westminster main parites is asaying is that the UK union is not a relationship of equals or consensual. Its shows scotland is subservient and the relationship is coercive

They weren’t denied one – the result just didn’t suit a section of the population

this post might be deliberately provocative, but it does boil my piss a bit that so many people here are happy to lump all the English together regardless of political inclination, but get all pissy when the British get lumped together. This is why I get irritated.

We’ve been through this repeatedly and it’s just sidelining the topic. You don’t see Scotland as any different than a region of England. We know. Unfortunately the law disagrees with you and it’s the law, and it’s application, we are currently dealing with.

NB this post might be deliberately provocative, but it does boil my piss a bit that so many people here are happy to lump all the English together regardless of political inclination, but get all pissy when the British get lumped together. This is why I get irritated.

You’ve been making the same point repeatedly since who knows when. We get it, not every English person voted for Brexit and not every English person voted Tory.

However, it still doesn’t change the fact that the majority did vote for Brexit and, thanks to the Westminster voting system and a large minority of English voters, we have had a Tory government for far too long.

I’m sorry you don’t have the option to distance yourself from England and the Westminster voting system but can you at least accept that people in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and possibly even Wales do have that option and would be insane to not consider ejecting from this basket of lunatics who are driving the whole of the UK off a cliff?

They weren’t denied one – the result just didn’t suit a section of the population

We are being denied one now despite having a scottish government elected on a manifesto of having a second independence referendum

I just looked at the polls – varies tremendously depend who asked what question from under 40% retention to over 50%

So how come you originally stated “the vast majority”? Did you just make it up with absolutely no supporting evidence?

Are you part of the IEA or ERG?

I’m sorry you don’t have the option to distance yourself from England

He does – he lives in Wales