Scotland Indyref 2

I’d like to know what basis you think Westminster has refused to invest in renewables?

When Westminster refused to allow Scotland to do so. When Scottish developments in renewables get no Westminster funding. By reading about what is happening

Your link ia about private investment. Im talking about state investment

Most of my friends are pragmatic nationalists and their minds are made up as we read learn and understand the benefits of having a representative government

What are the actual benefits that they’ve made their mind up before any evidence has been provided?

Same with the negatives, there has been no sale other than hypothetical ‘we can do our own stuff’, same tag line we saw with Brexit?

they want to see a future that will mean they do better long term, not worse, and no evidence has been put forward for either yet.

And in large part won’t be able to for a long time after the decisions’s been made; Rees-Mogg is very rarely right about anything, but when he said that the effects of  Brexit will take 50 years to come to focus, he wasn’t entirely wrong. There’s no reason why Scotland couldn’t have a bright future, but there’s two HUGE questions that are being avoided. Only 18% of Scots approve of taking on the Euro as the currency  And the EU would insist on a hard border to the rUK. Until those are resolved, I think the SNP will continue to play the game of “We really do want Independence, it’s all those other people (thank God for them) that are stopping it from happening – Vote for me!”

I did this a few pages ago

Benefits

Joining the EU

Having sensible tax and benefits systems

Being able to borrow to invest

Etc

Most important having a government that reflects our vote

tjagain

When Westminster refused to allow Scotland to do so. When Scottish developments in renewables get no Westminster funding. By reading about what is happening

For example, the world’s largest tidal stream system is in scotland and it received a £10m investment by the UK gov to be built. Tidal stream systems receive an ongoing share of £20m/yr investment by the UK GOV.

Another example, startups received up to £10m each for research into floating wind turbine systems this year.

tjagain
Full Member

Your link ia about private investment. Im talking about state investment

Yes, I did mention that 🙂 It’s private investment as a direct result of UK Gov policy.

A pittance compred to what is beeded a d what is wasted on nuclear

Several promising designs have fallen for lack of investment

TJ you are supposed to be on a bike tour, not popping back to this thread every couple of minutes to argue the case for Scottish independence. Until there is a mechanism for a vote on it, it’s all moot anyway. Personally I’m not convinced there will be a referendum any time soon and it’s entirely possible that circumstances will be very different if/when we have that opportunity.

Czechoslovakia isn’t an island is it.

It borders one of the main power houses of Europe.

@tj so your advocating a Bollocks to everyone else stance then? Thats not very socialist is it. That is very nationalistic

No one again has all the facts it’s just what ifs. And when a political party is saying what if it makes it very uncertain.

It’d bad enough to trust then when they give you a fact.

You’ll not change the hardliners on either side. There’s plenty in the middle though that look at this and just see potential benefits with potential downsides and with it want to avoid the uncertainty

Thats not very socialist is it. That is very nationalistic

If being socialist is treating everyone with the same respect without regard to borders then why should my relationship with someone in England be any different to that with someone in, say, Norway? Seems to me like you are advocating a form of nationalism, just that it should be based on the UK. We know where that has led us.

TJ you are supposed to be on a bike tour, not popping back to this thread every couple of minutes to argue the case for Scottish independence. Until there is a mechanism for a vote on it, it’s all moot anyway. Personally I’m not convinced there will be a referendum any time soon and it’s entirely possible that circumstances will be very different if/when we have that opportunity.

Plus 1 to both parts of this

Because Scotland is my country and my home.

So is the UK.

@tj so your advocating a Bollocks to everyone else stance then?

He’s literally advocating the opposite of that. His stance is (unless I’ve misread everything he’s said) is “This is what affects me, This is what I can do about it, so I’ll do that”

Scotroutes. Im waiting for clothes to dry! About to set off again

Molgrips. Nope. England NI and wales are forign countries. The uk is a union of countries

I’m not.

I believe that with a more collaborative approach we are able to assist and aid people.

Again I’d not advocate any action that would push say Norway under.

Tribal same as nationalism?

What happens to the Snp then. You’ll wind up with 2xparties with 2 opposing view points one right one left.

How’s that going to be different to Westminster

so your advocating a Bollocks to everyone else stance then? Thats not very socialist is it. That is very nationalistic

As nickc says plus what buisness of mine is what happens in another country

England NI and wales are forign countries. The uk is a union of countries

If that’s not a nationalistic viewpoint I don’t know what is. It doesn’t appear to be universally acknowledged either. You could start by editing Wikipedia, see how far you get:

“The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][17] is a sovereign country in Europe”

Where are you getting these definitions of ‘union’ and ‘country’ from?

For example, the world’s largest tidal stream system is in scotland and it received a £10m investment by the UK gov to be built. Tidal stream systems receive an ongoing share of £20m/yr investment by the UK GOV.

It’s our money, Scots pay taxes you know – in fact we’ve a specific Scottish Tax Code, were you aware?

Czechoslovakia isn’t an island is it.

It borders one of the main power houses of Europe.

Still avoiding the “unpicking” I see.

For example, the world’s largest tidal stream system is in scotland and it received a £10m investment by the UK gov to be built.

I guess you’ve never been involved in a large-scale engineering project? £10m is the kind of money spent on a small scale demonstrator/proof of concept – you need billions- £10m would keep 25 people in an office busy for 5 years, that’s all, they wouldn’t build anything, just run some simulations and create a big pile of paperwork.

Go on educate me ref the extraction from the ussr and coup and change in regime of an ex soviet block nation in the middle of Europe and its complexity in doing so with the support of non communist neighbours

and Scottish devolution.

I’d argue whist there maybe some lessons to learn the social political and geographical issues are very different.

Where are you getting these definitions of ‘union’ and ‘country’ from?

Well if we’re using Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

What happens to the Snp then. You’ll wind up with 2xparties with 2 opposing view points one right one left.

How’s that going to be different to Westminster

Proprtional representation

Of 2 right n left wing parties?

And a small centrist contingent?

dovebiker

I guess you’ve never been involved in a large-scale engineering project? £10m is the kind of money spent on a small scale demonstrator/proof of concept – you need billions- £10m would keep 25 people in an office busy for 5 years, that’s all, they wouldn’t build anything, just run some simulations and create a big pile of paperwork.

Thanks captain 😉 quite obviously the approach is not funding the entire project.

intheborders

It’s our money, Scots pay taxes you know – in fact we’ve a specific Scottish Tax Code, were you aware?

I don’t see what point you are making? I was replying to a quote which said Westminster “refused to invest”. I gave a few examples of Westminster’s investments. 🤷‍♂️

Duncan. Of at least 5 parties right across the spectrum

When Scottish developments in renewables get no Westminster funding

I’ve got news for you. The funding for renewables comes from consumers bills. Not Westminster. Currently around £10BN per year.

Dummies Guide To Renewable Subsidies

What the SNP want is the 90% of UK consumers not in Sdotland to subsidise more Scottish wind when we already have so much that we have to pay wind farms to stop producing.

Wind curtailment costs hit record high in 2021

I’m quite happy without yet more green subsidies getting put on my electricity bill.

It’ll wind up with 2 major players and some in the periphery.

I’m a natural cynic. It’s a skill

His stance is (unless I’ve misread everything he’s said) is “This is what affects me, This is what I can do about it, so I’ll do that”

His stance is really, this’ll lump me with perpetual tory governments, ya bastards. 😆

But it won’t.

Where are you getting these definitions of ‘union’ and ‘country’ from?

His sense of identity, most likely.

Proprtional representation

That was specifically designed so Scotland would not end up with the look of Govt it has right now (dominated by a single party). How well it’ll work when the work of the SNP is “by definition” over is anyone’s guess. My guess is that it’ll be a return to the normal coalitions of right and left wing bickering (and poor decision making) that is the norm for most developed democracies. The other problem is of course the SNP may very well lead Scotland to Independence, there’s no guarantee it’ll be them negotiating with the EU to start the journey (if that’s what happens) or re-entry post Independence

Nailed there Nickc

I don’t think so, I think we have a largely two-party system here precisely because of FPTP – new parties cannot get any traction because of tactical voting. If you could vote for who you actually wanted and expect it to count, the landscape would be very different.

There will be dominant parties, but likely coalitions will rule. i’d be happy with that. It’s only polarized because of the identity crisis.

Molgrips

Why is believing Scotland is my country nationalist but believing the UK is my country acceptable to you?

I’m not passing judgement on you. I just want you to think about why you choose one not the other. I mean really, be honest with yourself.

And ‘nationalist’ isn’t necessarily a judgement either. If you don’t think it is, tell me why.

Scotland is my home. I feel it in my heart. You cannot change that

FFS i was born in Bristol. I could have supported rugby team that win things. I ended up a Edinburgh and Scotland supporter which is a world of pain.

England means no more to me than Germany

But what about Britain? You can get out of being English, you can’t get out of being British.

I’ve never felt British.

Born in Plymouth, lived there less than 6months of my life. Been in Scotland the remainder, I am Scottish not British.

Not whats in my heart.

If pushed I am a brit of english descent but Scotland is my home.

And where feels like home is what counts. You cannot change what is in your heart