Scotland Indyref 2

I think you misspelled Sarwars name scotroutes🤣🙄

I don’t think I did

I don’t blame the scotts one iota. If I were scottish I’d be really angry right now.

Anglo-Welsh here, also angry. Also angry at people who think that wanting change is a Scottish thing and everyone else is perfectly happy with the government that s minority of people voted for.

I think this article is worth a read particularly the bit about online debate
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/20252101.online-arguments-deal-certainties—even-wrong/?ref=fbshr

What Molgrips said.

No one on this thread said you were happy with the tories.

Also angry at people who think that wanting change is a Scottish thing and everyone else is perfectly happy with the government that s minority of people voted for.

Molgrips, you strike me as an intelligent chap. Which makes it all the more perplexing that you are able to misconstrue the opinions of others again and again and spout this utter tripe. It’s one hell of a chip you are sporting there fella.

I’m anglo welsh also… all I’m seeing from Labour and the tories is institutional racism, cronyism and political cowardice..

Hence I will not vote for them.

With the divisive Johnson now gone, it surely punctures the SNP balloon on this matter?

Nope. You honestly think this lunacy strengthens the case for the Union?

Biggest cost of living crisis for 30 years, yeah lets have a leadership contest and give the bumbling baffoon another few months.

Insanity, get me away from this pish.

An old one but still worth posting every now and again, Tories showing their true colours and laughing at jibes regarding Scottish slaves

Do you feel the love Scotland? They don't give a stuff #SCOTREF pic.twitter.com/CLvVajHNSP

— TRADASRO ??????? (@tradasro) March 2, 2018

With the divisive Johnson now gone, it surely punctures the SNP balloon on this matter?

LOL no

Johnsons antics may have moved a few from maybe to yes but the big issues still remain.

.the democratic defit.

Policy that suits England but damages Scotland

Brexit
Immigration ( we need freedom of movement)

Stupid taxation polices

Nuclear weapons

Etc etc

Johnson going is just a very marginal issue compred to this

In both the B!J! and the Next PM threads it’s being made clear that the replacement is likely to even worse as regards certain policies. I don’t see any of them making the PoS less likely to vote for independence.

Policy that suits England but damages Scotland

What policy suits the whole of England but none of Scotland?

Molgrips, you strike me as an intelligent chap. Which makes it all the more perplexing that you are able to misconstrue the opinions of others again and again and spout this utter tripe.

Thanks but what I am doing is calling out what appears to be the sub-text here. The ‘us and them’ thing is hard baked into many of the argument being presented. If you take it for granted that Scots and English (well, rUK but whatever, same thing innit) are fundamentally different groups of people. Which is a question of nationalism. If you start to question wether or not Scotland might be simply a part of the UK, then it all looks quite different. I mean you’ll say ‘but Scotland votes differently to the UK’ but a) they have a credible centrist party that’s not available in rUK and b) lots of areas of the UK vote differently to each other, so that’s not really a good criterion. On that basis you cannot lump all of England or even all of Wales together. Yes, Westminster decisions go against Scots, but they go against lots of areas of the UK.

What I am doing is trying to examine the nationalist ideas being shown here.

For the record I don’t begrudge anyone a Yes vote, I’d be likely to do the same due to my objections to the poor political system in Westminster. But I wouldn’t do it because I thought Scots ‘deserved the right to govern themselves’ because they already do to the same extent (actually more) than everyone else in the UK.

For the record Molgrips has articulated my concerns very well. The only reason Scotland thinks it has a case for independance and Yorkshire doesn’t us a quirk of geography, not because people in Scotland are fundamentally culturally different. When that basic point is acknowledged the us and them argument falls apart and takes away a lot of the enthusiam driving the independance movement.

a quirk of geography,

It’s not even that, the border is simply the extent of a long dead ruler’s military capability, like most borders.

You just contine molgrips.

Start from accepting you do not understand scots nationalism and open you mind to learn about it.

You continue to make statements betraying your ignorance.

Its not an us and them arguement

Its about self determination

Scotland is a separate country

The only reason Scotland thinks it has a case for independance and Yorkshire doesn’t us a quirk of geography

Wow…

They already had an indy ref, but

that was before the Scotts were screwed up royally by brexit.

The goal posts have moved, and they should not be forced to remain part of the the UK (read: outside the EU) against thier will.

Policies. Taxation. We want and vote for tax raising government and redistributive government

Immigration. Anti immigration rehtoric holds no sway here. We know we need economic migrants and the lack of them has devasted the rural economy

Nuclear power and weapons. We dont want them

And please stop saying we keep saying this and that treating rUK as monolithic. We dont. Its about what the people of Scotland want. We cannot have this as part of the uk

Its not about England at all. Its about scotland and having a representative government

Its not an us and them arguement

Its about self determination

Ummm?

We know we need economic migrants and the lack of them has devasted the rural economy

So do lots of other people in the UK!

Scotland is a separate country with its own legal system to equate Scotland with a region of england is quote honestly offensive

So do lots of other people in the UK!

So? What relevance is that?

Once again. This is not about england. This is about self determination for scotland. This is about having a representative government

Oh one thing about england. We are fed up of sending money south and paying foe English vanity projects

Tax take per head of population in Scotland is more than public spending in Scotland

This is about self determination for scotland

You’re British, you already have self determination.

Some of these ScotNats think that everyone just votes according to some mythical ‘national will’ in order to shaft every other nation in the UK.

You’re British, you already have self determination.

No i do not. My vote for the uk parliament has no value and my country which is Scotland cannot follow its own path as part of this union.

Thanks but what I am doing is calling out what appears to be the sub-text here.

You have been told time and time again that your view is ill informed and based on a basic lack of understanding

What I am doing is trying to examine the nationalist ideas being shown here.

But you are not listening and what you percive is purely in your imagination

You have a basic lack of understanding of the motives of most of us and you refuse to listen

I agree with that there is a desire to have more autonomy which may or may not be a good thing however the arguement that Scotland and it’s people are different and using the Brexit vote to justify that is stretching things a bit.

If I remember correctly Scotland had about a 60/40 split for remain/leave with less than 70% turnout. This isn’t that much higher than the rest of the UK so shouldn’t be used as a determining factor to justify another indy referendum. Lots os people in Scotland wanted to leave the EU and lots more couldn’t be arsed to vote one way or the other.

There are valid reasons for another vote but the north/south brexit result isn’t one of them.

66 to 34 iirc which is very different to england 45 to 55

Brexit vote is a huge reason. We voted 2 to 1 to remain. Twice as many remain votes as leave. We have been dragged out of the EU against a strongly held wish to remain. Not one area in Scotland voted leave

Its a massive difference

62:38 so not that different and certainly not overwhelming.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36599102

EDIT: Lets not forget the 1/3 of eligible voters that didn’t vote. There is the possibility it could have swung to leave just as easily as moving further towards remain.

my country which is Scotland

And you said it’s not about us and them?

You might be Scottish but, perhaps unfortunately, you’re also British.

Not one area in Scotland voted leave

But 35% of the population voted leave. What about them? They just have to suck it up, right? But the 65% of Scots (some 5% of the UK population) get to have what they want?

Like I said, I am very sympathetic to the Yes cause for pragmatic reasons, but don’t pretend nationalism has nothing to do with it – especially when you are making nationalist arguments.

But you are not listening

I am listening, I’m just not agreeing. I’m listening to your arguments and attempting to point out, using logic, where they are based in nationalism.

So where is this Scottish supports the UK.

Everything I see says otherwise?

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

For example.

Again the benefits I see are all what ifs.

If you want something from someone just cause you want it doesn’t mean they’ll give you it.

No molgrips. You are not listening at all. You have a fixed preconceived idea and refuse to hear anything that goes against it

Once again. Its not about England. Its a out Scotland wanting to go its own away

Its not agaist anything. Its a positive wish for self determination.

We have been dragged out of the EU against strongly held wish

The same could be said for all remain voting constituencies in the UK.

Duncan loads of info out there.

Yes Scotland has higher public spending per head than england but if you look at total tax take in Scotland its higher again.

Sounds very similar to some brexit arguments…

Once again. Its not about England. Its a out Scotland wanting to go its own away

Its not agaist anything. Its a positive wish for self determination.

The same could be said for all remain voting constituencies in the UK.

And what does that have to do with Scotland

No molgrips. You are not listening at all.

I really am, you’ve not left me anything left to say other than ‘ok then’ which I’m not going to say cos I don’t agree. You’re just insisting I agree with you, which isn’t the same as discussing an issue 🙂

Its a positive wish for self determination.

But you’ve defined ‘self’ as Scotland, not the UK. You could have chosen either, but you chose Scotland. That’s why it’s nationalism.

OK Tj drop me a link ref tax vs spend that’s independent