Scotland Indyref 2

I thought that molgrips was quite clear that he abhors borders of any sort and that he therefore does not recognise the authority of the Scots people to conduct their own affairs.

Well, in an ‘ideal’ World, that’s what I think.
I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.

I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.

Apologies. I was lazily using as shorthand for “the people who live in Scotland”.

However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties

I don’t think that anyone is realistically doing that.

I’m not sure, it is difficult, for me at least, to read what is being said, from a neutral perspective.

For example, I can see both sides of ‘we would like more detail of what we can expect’ and ‘they won’t be happy without a minutely detailed proposal, it’s just a distraction technique’ (words expressed more clearly,to that effect)

I think for the SNP, Scots people means people who reside in Scotland – see also a UKIP definition of British for compare and contrast purposes.
It may also include conceptually people who might reside in Scotland in the future.

As a Glasgow born, Glasgow educated resident of York, I don’t qualify on the first definition. I might on second, as might my English born wife and children.

That said, elder son went to his prom in a kilt last night. He has his view on who he is, possibly because Scots is just cooler than English. That said he’s also a Yorkshireman.  Confused nationality / ethnicity is a good thing I think.

I’m not even clear there is such a thing as ‘Scots people’, I think I have as much in common with some people from all corners of the World, than specific people that I work beside each day, for example.

Apologies. I was lazily using as shorthand for “the people who live in Scotland”

Ah, okay.

I am one of the people of Scotland as was Bashir Ahmed. Its the people who make Scotland their home.

For example, I can see both sides of ‘we would like more detail of what we can expect’ and ‘they won’t be happy without a minutely detailed proposal

Indeed. I want to hear some good details on finaces especially. The issue is inionist attacks go unchallenged in the media and become percevied wisdom even if baseless. See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time. The unionists just ignore the fact that the pound is part owned by Scotland. The bank of england is the uk reseve back. Its division will have to be negotiated

Its the people who make Scotland their home.

And by extension, directly contribute to Scotland.

So Billy Connolly, probably yes for at least some of the year, Sean Connery (during his life obviously), maybe no.  Discuss 😉

Another problem for me with voting Yes is that it’s very final, there’d be no going back. So, if swithering, I’d default to the status quo.

So Billy Connolly, probably yes for at least some of the year, Sean Connery (during his life obviously), maybe no. Discuss

No discussion necessary. Neither are going to be voting so they have an opinion, that’s all.

if swithering, I’d default to the status quo.

There is no status quo. Events since 2014 should have made that clear.

Its division will have to be negotiated

😱 the potential difficulties with all these issues, are beyond me. I can understand for some, that these things are irrelevant and the end goal is all that matters, but…

I’m just concerned that it’s going to dissolve into a farce like brexit.

And before anyone says anything about we’ll do it better there’s 2 sides to this one is the Snp and ones Westminster. Neither of which I’m a fan of.

The risks just seem to outway any benefits.

There’s room for improvement granted but this just seems so drastic and irreversible

@scotroutes Apologies. What I was alluding to was Sean was a frequent advocate of Scot’s independence while living abroad and not qualifying on the people of Scotland test – though he was generally regarded as Scots. Billy, through most of his life was anti-independence, though he moved to a more nuanced position post-Brexit, while as I understand it living in Drymen for half the year.

They are just examples. Lots of less well known people will have the same confused mix views and potential for participation.

I personally found 2014 very difficult, because I had folk in England tell me I was a foreigner and to go home, while Scotland didn’t think I should have an opinion.  Not saying it was right or wrong, just that I felt unwanted by both countries. (Note I don’t mean unwanted by friends, family and colleagues)

I personally found 2014 very difficult, because I had folk in England tell me I was a foreigner and to go home,

I’m going to let you into a secret – they think that of you anyway. 🙂

They really didn’t in 2012.

But to be fair, I’m an arrogant git so I can rise above it all.

EDIT – possibly the reason they didn’t see me as a foreigner in 2012 is because those folk hadn’t realised Scotland wasn’t part of England 😉

You’re lucky then. I had folk telling me that when I lived in London in the 1980s.

I’m going to let you into a secret – they think that of you anyway. 🙂

Similarly, there are Scottish people who have the same attitude to anyone from England they come across. You should hear some of the things my sister-in-law says!

Oh, I’ve met some of them too!

London – the sixth largest Scot’s town in Britain by population (or something like that)

How about this: if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they’d bail you out, giving you the opportunity to get rich as part of a global empire, how would you vote?

Molly “get rich quick!”, I’ve a bridge for sale, it’s cheap – interested?

Reminder – the people didn’t vote for the Union, it was decided by a load of rich folk, and some of them got very rich from ‘helping’ it happen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ker,_1st_Duke_of_Roxburghe

“In 1704, he was made a Secretary of State of Scotland, and he helped to bring about the union with England, being created Duke of Roxburghe in 1707 for his services in this connection.”

I got accosted by his ancestor earlier in the week, telling me to “got off my land”. Land he gained due to the Union and his part in it.

Indeed. I want to hear some good details on finaces especially. The issue is inionist attacks go unchallenged in the media and become percevied wisdom even if baseless. See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time. The unionists just ignore the fact that the pound is part owned by Scotland. The bank of england is the uk reseve back. Its division will have to be negotiated

Note, it’s a fact that any country could if they want to adopt Sterling as their currency. I’m ignoring whether it’s a good or bad idea, but I always point this out whenever I see any saying what Scotland can or can’t do.

I’m going to let you into a secret – they think that of you anyway.

Yep, whenever I listen to Unionist talk about been ‘British’ I always chuckle, because to the average Brit (the English) they’re either a “Jock” or a “Paddy”.

because to the average Brit (the English) they’re either a “Jock” or a “Paddy”

I follow these threads from afar as I am not well informed enough to contribute, but want to understand positions/opinions on such an important issue. This statement, however, is just offensive. I’m an average Brit (English) and do NOT think Scots are “Jock”s or Irish “Paddy”s. It’s blanket statements like that, that do nothing but infuriate and inflame opinions.

See the nonsense about not being allowed to use the pound last time

And that’s misrepresenting what said so you’re as guilty as the tabloids for not being transparent. No one said Scotland couldn’t use the pound, what was said was they’d have no control over it so monetary policy would be set in Westminster for rUK with no consideration of the impact of that in Scotland.

You could argue that’s the case now but as Scotland is still part of the UK the differences in terms of needs from monetary policy are much smaller, it’s quite conceivable if Scotland was a seperate nation the requirements could be quite different and what’s good for rUK could be quite detrimental to Scotland.

It’s this sort of not covering all the implications of independence which undermines the case for independence. Of course Scotland could continue to use the pound but there would be a period where they would ironically cede control of their currency in the name of sovereignty until they either setup their own currency and joined the Euro (and have even less control).

It’s all very familiar and exactly the same fallacy as Brexit, breaking away does equate to having full control over your affairs, we all live in a global economy. Brexit is proving this (and making the medium term impact of Scottish independence significant worse).

Stumpyjon.

Directky said by tory politicians. Yes sensible folk told the truth but the big lie remains out there

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/13/george-osborne-scotland-independence_n_4779204.html

It’s all very familiar and exactly the same fallacy as Brexit, breaking away does equate to having full control over your affairs

Correct and made clear and accepted by the snp

We would have more control tho to set policy to suit

You’re partly right stumpyjon
but they did say it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/independent-scotland-could-not-keep-3142934.amp
George Osborne’s “sermon on the pound” produced a rise in support for independence. However it is an old argument now and I am against using the pound for one minute longer than we have to.

This has been an interesting thread and I decided that I should jump in too.

In terms of outlook I am close to that of molgrips and his desire to live in a post-nationality Star Trek Federation sort of world. Nationality is a really peculiar way to define yourself as a person.

That said I am Scottish and have recently moved back to Scotland after two decades or more of living overseas, living in London and travelling internationally with work.

Politically I am absolutely centre-left social libertarian and I say that as someone who pays extra tax for living in Scotland. I am happy to pay my taxes when they go on useful things like the welfare of – ahem – the nation.

If I had voted in 2014 I would’ve been hard no. I voted remain in 2016.

And in 2023 I will be voting for independence with bells on.

I know that makes me a hypocrite because of my stated preference for a pulse nationality world but I see it as being critical to find a way to break the UK apart at this time to drive the necessary constitutional, political and electoral reforms.

The status quo is untenable and I have no confidence that labour will drive a big enough change. The Tories are abhorrent and they certainly won’t drive the right change.

I am in no doubt that independence will be something of a cluster****, but it won’t be one of those forever and the hope of re-entry to the EU is too important not to grasp.

HWFG!

No one said Scotland couldn’t use the pound, what was said was they’d have no control over it so monetary policy would be set in Westminster for rUK with no consideration of the impact of that in Scotland.

The biggest impact of that of course, is that it will prevent Scotland from re-joining the EU – If that’s one of the aims of Independence. I don’t think it insurmountable, (there’s always the Euro) but it’s one of the biggest challenges, the other of course being the hard border that the EU will demand – and we know now that they will not negotiate. If nothing else than to prevent rUK getting access to the single market through the back door, (so to speak)

Some things are clearer now than they were in 2014, not all of them are to the SNPs benefit.

I should add I would be right up for the Euro.

Talk of EU and Euro are a long way off after independence, the plan needs to be immediate, any application to the EU is joining a long queue just now and will require a lot of work for Scotland’s government to get aligned to the required criteria.

It’s also worth remembering for all the talk of socialist paradises, leftist policy and so on, Scotland has a large unionist following, and a lot of people who still think it’s the 1700s, as the orange marches today show, it’s not as cut and dry as the Brexit vote percentages, and worth noting both sides of the political line.

Not true on the EU. There is no queue. Countries join as they are able and scots law is compatible with EU law. This has been made clear. We would be back in quite quickly.

Orange men and other unionist fundamentalists are a tiny number. But for sure i want to see a 60+% yes vote.

More moderate inionists can be brought on board over time i hope. A bitter split like brexit would damage the cointry for sure but i think the boons of independence wod quickly show

Not true on the EU. There is no queue. Countries join as they are able and scots law is compatible with EU law. This has been made clear. We would be back in quite quickly.

There’s 7 countries currently recognised as candidates, Scotland would not be back in quickly, some of those candidates have been going through the process for 15 years!

This is the type of thing that will cause issues if independence happens and people think joining the EU will take a couple of years, it is not an easy process and if it’s part of any mandate, then appropriate timelines, resources, etc should be provided for any vote.

Yes and the eu has said there is no wueue. Scotland being fully compliant with eu law means no long adkustment period
I would expect this to be clarified during the campaign . Remember that we were a member until recently

Not all of those in favour of independence attach as much importance to the EU as I do it IMO quick reentry is rssential

We are not a monolithic group

The duration of negotiations can vary – starting at the same time as another country is no guarantee of finishing at the same time.

Ie there is no queue. You join when you meet the accession criteria and Scotland basically does already

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/steps-towards-joining_en

Imo the main issue with iScotland rejoining the EU is we would have to have the euro. Im in favour but i can see that being a hard sell and tbe SNP trying to fudge it. I hope they dont. I hope they are honest about it.

Is Spain going to veto it? That’s the question for me.

Ie there is no queue. You join when you meet the accession criteria and Scotland basically does already

Again, proof required rather than just ‘we were part of it before’, because the UK were part of it, Scotland will be a brand new country, with a different set of metrics to go against the criteria, and will need to be verified by the EU.

This is the type of issue that will need to be fleshed out a lot more than it is at present, otherwise it’s Brexit all over again, it’s a lesson that should be fresh in everyones mind!

I know that makes me a hypocrite because of my stated preference for a [post] nationality world but I see it as being critical to find a way to break the UK apart at this time to drive the necessary constitutional, political and electoral reforms.

The status quo is untenable

This a Yes position I could agree with.

Argee. I put a link to the accession criteria and quoted the relevant part

There is no queue and Scotland meets virtually all the entry criteria this there is no need for delay.