Scotland Indyref 2

Where we keep rolling back the welfare state in England… acting as if it is something used by the undeserving and that is unaffordable…

Yes, and the actual people in England don’t want this. But they somehow keep voting for Tories anyway despite that. That’s their great trick, they convince people to vote against their own best interests.

Where’s all this money going to come from that the SNP can supposedly divert to health, welfare, housing, etc., once Scotland becomes independent?

I’m curious as to the root of your vitriol.

Presumably you’re English? Are you anti an independent Scotland because you’d simply hate for Scottish living standards to be reduced? Or, because it’s somehow ‘right’ for Scotland to be (effectively) governed by England?

Don’t say oil. This isn’t 1980 anymore.

Wind, tidal and hydro power for starters. Things like hydrogen production become a lot easier/cheaper when you have a surfeit of energy and water. The Scottish Government would have investment-raising powers to encourage foreign investment, which then encourages investment in other industries – kinda like an energy and industrial strategy the UK Government has been promising for at least 2 decades…

Or, because it’s somehow ‘right’ for Scotland to be (effectively) governed by England?

‘Effectively’ – in other words not actually.

@dovebiker – that sounds like pie in the sky without numbers.

Why is it pie in the sky? Are you saying those things won’t provide an income?

Pies without number in the sky….Aye but wait till you see the size of the seagulls

An income could be £1 to the treasury. What sort of income are you projecting?

It’s fairly simple. If you are arguing for independence then you need to provide a detailed budget covering the next 50 years. If you are arguing against then some vague words about “strength of the Union” are more than adequate.

For some folk, the union is simply indivisible. It’s one UK now and nothing can change that. Nothing you can say will persuade them of a case for Scottish independence so it’s not worth debating them.

I also came to the conclusion previously that there is no value in trying to persuade someone who wouldn’t have a vote in the referendum.

That’s not to say that there is no value in debate. Many of the same arguments will be put forward by folk who DO have a vote and it helps to understand their position and, possibly, how to change their minds.

I’m not projecting any amount yet. I will look at the numbers when/if they become available. In the meantime, I will consider relevant arguements for and against. What do you think they will provide and what do you think will be required? And why?

@scotroutes, I think you may have nailed it there.

Or, because it’s somehow ‘right’ for Scotland to be (effectively) governed by England?

Ugh, that bollocks again. When we had a Scottish PM was that wrong? All parts of the UK are governed to some extent by Westminster, which is full of MPs from all over the UK. And we all live in the UK.

Nationalism is bullshit, I’ll say it again.

See

🤣🤣🤣

It’s fairly simple. If you are arguing for independence then you need to provide a detailed budget covering the next 50 years.

I know you’re being sarcastic but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan. Perhaps currency, fiscal, pension and monetary plans that could fit on the back of a proverbial fag packet aren’t enough?

but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan

Some of the same people.
In the same way some who are arguing against Scottish Independence and demanding details were the ones who dived headlong into Brexit without a plan.

Sturgeon now saying that Scotalnd would not provide any weapons to Ukraine.
Has she not been reading the news? I think they need everything they can get!

To put the above in some context
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/30/nicola-sturgeons-snp-will-no-longer-send-money-ukraine-weapons/

Yeah, the Scottish government have seen money go from their existing budget to Ukraine for military spending. They now say that any further money should be decided by the Scottish government/parliament itself.

And the Welsh agree

From that Telegraph piece …

The Scottish Government said its £65 million would be used to help fund “sophisticated air defence systems and thousands of pieces of vital kit for Ukrainian soldiers.”

“This further funding is to assist Ukrainian armed forces to fight Russian aggression and the unspeakable brutality being perpetrated.”

“We have agreed to providing funding on this occasion given the clear need to maximise the international effort to support Ukraine. However, we are clear that this must not be seen as any kind of precedent which leads to devolved budgets being used to help pay for clearly reserved policy areas.”

I know you’re being sarcastic but the same people arguing for Scottish Independence were the same ones criticising Brexit for not having a proper plan.

1) The published preparatory papers from the Scottish government at the last indie referendum went far beyond anything Brexit campaigning politicians offered at the EU referendum, and I suspect the same will be true at any future indie referendum.

2) After the EU referendum the Scottish government published papers about their proposed solutions to satisfying the UK wide mandate while minimising the negative effects on Scotland, including “numbers”. The UK gov has spent years now refusing to publish much of their findings, or even look into the effects of, the options the UK faced as it left the EU.

The SNPs and Greens will be ready and transparent come a referendum, there’s no reason to think otherwise.

This whole “look how unprepared the Brexit campaigners were” as an argument for not even having a vote ignores the basic fact that it’s not the same politicians, or even political parties, that are proposing independence. Not all politicians are the same, but of course it’s very much in the interests of certain politicians that we think of things in that way.

The published preparatory papers from the Scottish government at the last indie referendum went far beyond anything Brexit campaigning politicians offered at the EU referendum, and I suspect the same will try at any future indie referendums.

Was it enough? From following this argument last time it seemed that people pre-disposed to Yes thought it was, and vice versa.

You could disagree with their findings, or their data… but they set it out and published it to be debated on. Rather than deliberating not setting anything out so that any debate became like nailing multiple jellies to a plate.

Quite, and that’s the difference between Tories and parties who actually try to act like a government.

The Sturgeon argument appears to be defence is a matter reserved to Westminster (and funds sit there too), and sending weapons feels like defence, therefore spending on such sits at Westminster not Hollyrood.  Stop dipping our pockets Boris.

Did I get that right?

Quite, and that’s the difference between Tories and parties who actually try to act like a government.

As it happens, I didn’t agree with their case last time (no vote for me down here anyway) but I could read and understand what they were proposing. I suspect the same will happen next time (probably with me disagreeing again, not that it’s relevant). This is not the same politicians, and they don’t approach things in the same was as those that led the campaign to leave the EU.

As for shouting “you can’t leave” at people North of the border, I think that’s the best path to splitting the union.

@kelvin

IIRC at the last referendum, the SNP couldn’t even say what currency they would adopt or how public debt with the UK(r) would be divided up. Almost everything was a deferred matter subject to negotiation. So surely you can understand my scepticism of where this magic money tree is coming from?

Not all politicians are the same

Westminster bad, Hollyrood good?

Don’t be so naive.

A former SNP MP was jailed today for embezzlement. Aren’t the police also investigating a much bigger SNP (alleged) fraud? What about the ferries debacle and the allegations of corruption? How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.

The only difference is that the SNP started with a relatively clean slate back when powers were devolved. As time goes on they will look just as bad (and good) as anyone else.

I scoff cake, are you living in Scotland? Not a loaded question in any way, just wondering.

A former SNP MP was jailed today for embezzlement

A former Tory one would have been given a Peerage

How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.

Can you add some details? Its an often trotted out line but ive yet to see anyone who has stated it (in social media) then go on to clarify why and with credible evidence.

How is the education system? Many say the SNP has wrecked it in Scotland.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19929798.scotland-europes-best-educated-population-according-eurostat/

@futureboy77

Quality ≠ Quantity

Those figures only show that Scotland shifts more bodies (relatively) through the Tertiary education system. I think we both know that you can take someone barely literate these days through a relatively worthless degree course, for example.

Besides, the only real reason for these figures is that Tertiary education is IIRC either much cheaper or free in Scotland, and it’s paid for with money borrowed by the UK as a whole.

I moved to Scotland in 2006 bringing my two degrees with me, so I guess I have contributed to that trend outlined in the National article. It’s got f all to do with the ‘success’ of the SNP though.

Meanwhile my kids are watching Marvel films as part of their Nat 5 ‘English’ education at the local High School…

Films are part of “English” lessons down here as well. My eldest went on to do both English Language and Film Studies as A levels… because the use of English in ye olde worlde books isn’t the only way to engage with and learn about the language.

Im just appaled there is no talk of Bueller

Before you know it… they be made to study a play as part of their GCSE/Nat5… I mean… A PLAY… the chosen entertainment of the lower orders.

Part of or dominated by? Because my experience of English lessons at this school is there ain’t many books involved.

Besides, the only real reason for these figures is that Tertiary education is IIRC either much cheaper or free in Scotland, and it’s paid for with money borrowed by the UK as a whole.

ScotGov subsidises education via balancing the books from the Barnet formula.

Because my experience of English lessons at this school is there ain’t many books involved.

Same here. “Books” and plays chosen based on there being suitable on screen versions to help get the pupils involved and invested. More watching (and then talking about) than reading. Drives me mad. I loved the books that were central to my English lessons. But, perhaps school is just, you know, different to when we were in our teens? We were educated in the past. To be honest, I enjoyed rewatching Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo&Juliet with both of my kids… he stuck to Shakespeare’s language, but the setting helped me relate… and if that’s true for an old bloke like me, probably more true for the kids. The lockdown version done by National Theatre was more my thing… but they swapped the lines about between characters (to make the most of Tamsin Greig’s undeniable gravitas), so the kids didn’t watch that as part of their revision to avoid confusion.

But, yes, “English” lessons include watching stuff now.