Scotland Indyref 2

Scotland would have less influence in the world

The UK has a permanent place on the United Nations security council and is one of the largest member states in the European Union. Anti-independence campaigners say an independent Scotland would inevitably hold less sway. They question whether an independence Scotland would be accepted into Nato and say membership of the EU would only come with strict ­conditions.

Read more: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-10-reasons-for-yes-and-no-1-3542968#ixzz4Czi2kdmi

Edinburgh Evening News, 16th September 2014.

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches-Briefings/Scotland-s-Place-in-Europe-bdf.aspx

And so because Scotland makes up just over 8% of the UK population, it is conceivable that unless we choose to change our circumstances this September, we could be dragged out of the European Union against our will.

Therefore the real risk to Scotland’s place in the EU is not the independence referendum in September. It’s the in-out referendum of 2017.

First Minister Alex Salmond, College of Europe, Bruges. Monday April 28, 2014

So one of those claims was proven correct and the other was a lie…

Went looking to see if anybody was offering odds of Brexit not happening and found the bookies reckon the chances of IS is about evens:

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/scotland-to-vote-for-independence-by-end-of-2024

He called that one, right enough, Despite Jambyfacts asserting it; there was nothing other than the “No EU for an independent Scotland” line so beloved of the no camp doing the rounds. Christ; it was recited at great length on the Indy thread by the usual suspects.

jambalaya – Member
Ransos the possibility of an Brexit was discussed last time, you had two years to go through it all.

France (Basque) and Spain (Basque and Catalonia) have confirmed publically they are not in favour of discussions with Scotland – its a politcal nightmare for them to do so. Vested European interests. Whilst they may be happy to whoop and cheer a fellow MEP sucking up to them (partly in French) hard nosed vested interest is a powerful foe

Spanish premier Mariano Rajoy said he “believes everyone is extremely against it” and that “if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”.
President Francois Hollande of France insisted the EU would make no advance deal with Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon said Mr Rajoy’s comments were not surprising.
At least NS is acknowledging what many of us have been saying, there will be significant resistance to the Scots joining as an newly independent nation

Relevant but half the story and you know it.

You’re better than this Jamba. Come on.

From Lalibre.be

Dans les couloirs des institutions, certains font peu d’efforts pour cacher leur sourire à l’idée de voir les eurosceptiques récolter ce qu’ils ont semé. Quel meilleur moyen d’empêcher un effet domino du Brexit à travers le continent que d’afficher la carte déchirée du Royaume-Uni ? “Tant mieux si l’Ecosse devient indépendante, comme ça on reste à vingt-huit. Ça fait deux ans que je le dis : l’UE va continuer à exister, mais le Royaume-Uni pas”, lance un diplomate européen.

Looks like the EU is enjoying Brexit.

😀

@ben I remember it being discussed, what happens if the UK leaves the EU ? It took a bit of a backseat to the, how would Scotland join the EU as that was a more pressing question but it was a scenario that was discussed. Given what a mess the SNP made of the EU question the UK exit question got pushed down the agenda. My view of course,

Epic the Belgians love the EU, thousands and thousands of jobs and hotel stays flowing through their country. Vested interest always cheers loudly.

Somewhat bizarre that every European Nationalist party wants out of the EU except the SNP where they see it as a route to “independence”

You’re better than this Jamba. Come on.

Triumph of hope over experience!

jambalaya – Member
…Somewhat bizarre that every European Nationalist party wants out of the EU except the SNP where they see it as a route to “independence”

They’d see the EU as a better alternative too if they were shackled to England and had a Westminster govt.

They are better that this epic. Come on.

It takes an extraordinary level of myopia and/or narcissism * among your leaders to believe that joining a broken single currency that requires greater levels of inter- rather than independence is in the best interests of Scotland.

But as you say, the anti-English nonsense might just cloud the judgement of even our canniest people.

* after this week, it seems that politicians will do almost anything and sacrifice almost everything to achieve their individual ambitions.

Again the lesson is clear – be VERY careful what you wish for.

You are all better than this. Come on.

teamhurtmore – Member
They are better that this epic. Come on…

How often do I have to repeat it is not anti-English sentiment but a loathing for the Westminster system, and the sure knowledge that no matter how our country votes, it gets steamrolled by England’s priorities.

The UK is not really a democracy because at the top of the pile is a system of entrenched privilege and entitlement that cannot be shifted by democratic means. Most Scots see that as a far greater danger to our freedoms than how the EU is run.

Although the Leave campaign stressed getting rid of unelected officials etc, they do not seem at all interested in removing the mote from their own eyes. Apparently getting rid of the House of Lords is not on the cards.

Personally I see the EU as an enabler for our independence. The IndyRef was lost because enough fear and uncertainty was introduced that we would not be able to get EU membership.

Now the UK is taking us out of the EU there is a sea change amongst a considerable number of the No voters who see independence as the only answer to staying in the EU because even if the govt backs down, our membership will always be at the mercy of English votes. The damage is done. Thank you, Nigel & Boris. 🙂

I remain sceptical of the EU after how Greece was handled, but I’ll happily take it as a way to separate from Westminster. If we don’t like the EU then we can always leave it with less hassle than leaving the UK.

One step at a time.

Remember that Scottish nationalism is very different to for example BNP or UKIP.

Its generally quite inclusive provided you accept the premise that Scotland should not be ruled from Westminster. I know English Scots Nats, Scots Nats with a variety of skin tones and in the case of one individual an English born, Welsh descended, Welsh domiciled Scots Nat.

But there are many contradictions in the Scots character – and once you learn to understand that apparently mutually exclusive things can co-exist quite happily it’s pretty straightforward.

I think though Scots see the EU as a club that confers rights and obligations, while Westminster is the seat of a a UK superstate where their votes count for little.

They’d see the EU as a better alternative too if they were shackled to England

point 1

How often do I have to repeat it is not anti-English sentiment

point 2

hmm, now which one is out of synch? 😉

Anyway good luck with the € but dont say you havent been warned!

I think though Scots see the EU as a club that confers rights and obligations, while Westminster is the seat of a a UK superstate where their votes count for little.

Well if that’s what is truly believed, good luck x 1000000000000000000000000

Now the UK is taking us out of the EU there is a sea change amongst a considerable number of the No voters who see independence as the only answer to staying in the EU because even if the govt backs down, our membership will always be at the mercy of English votes. The damage is done. Thank you, Nigel & Boris.

I have unionist Scottish friends who would vote for independence next time for precisely this reason. I would do the same.

@ben I remember it being discussed

Your recollection of what was discussed seems quite different to everyone else’s. I’m going to go with the balance of probability.

My personal thoughts on the indyref are that a lot of no votes were predicated on concerns around economics (there was no real economic pan put forward). Given whats happened in the last week that’s a sort of moot point because we’re a bit bollocksed anyway.

igm – Member
…I think though Scots see the EU as a club that confers rights and obligations, while Westminster is the seat of a a UK superstate where their votes count for little.

That’s far better put than anything I’ve said. 🙂

Its a bit like that song “anyone but the English”. The EU is just a means to an end for the SNP. IMO its nothing at all to do with rights.

We are also forgetting that their majority was cut at the last election and whilst the EU is a conveninent distraction sooner or later their domestic performance will come into focus.

They have levels of support westminster parties can only dream off and you are making the mistake of assuming that everyone racially profiles to the extent that you seem to do.

jambalaya – Member
…We are also forgetting that their majority was cut at the last election and whilst the EU is a conveninent distraction sooner or later their domestic performance will come into focus.

Yes, we mustn’t forget that continuous racist meme.

That Scotland is unique among all the countries in the world in being unable to run its own affairs properly.

And no doubt uniquely it will want to surrender its independence when it realises that, unlike any other nation in the world that has gained its independence from Westminster.

If Scotland ever manages a cock up of the economy like we have just seen in the UK you may have a case, but until then…

Jamby; you do realise that the Holyrood parliament was set up so there would always be a coalition? No? Oh well,crack on.

It’s funny this “you hate the English” thing. A combination of narcissism and an inferiority complex. No matter how often people are told that hating the English is nothing to do with it, they leap on any nuance that proves their idea. Even automatically assuming that when we say Westminster, we really mean English people.

Why are some people so keen to be hated?

Because it fits with their narrative and allows an avoidance of truth.

Ben, your innocence is warming, Dont worry. No one is keen to be hated, it’s just fun to see people say one thing (openly in this case) and then deny it.

Then the really thin-skinned ones try to flip the “truth” on it’s head. Tres amusant.

Your really DO have to have an inferiority complex though to be willing to jump from a warm cosy fire to a live and destructive volcano. Be careful what you wish for 😉

Jamba the snp majority went down but their vote went up D’hondt you know?

Ben, your innocence is warming, Dont worry. No one is keen to be hated, it’s just fun to see people say one thing (openly in this case) and then deny it.

Then the really thin-skinned ones try to flip the “truth” on it’s head. Tres amusant.

Do you actually have a source for this from this thread or is it from ” the truth is out there” collection? I looked back over the previous couple of pages and all I can find was epic being a bit flowery in his description of the Act of Union, however he was accurate in describing the ordinary people’s reaction. Like Darien, it was a while ago, we are kind of over that. If you are looking for hatred of other races, maybe you could look at the motives of many of your own countrymen and women in voting Brexit?

Good article in FT on this:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3d922f72-3f67-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0.html#axzz4DBHyvY3G

Think it is free along with their other Brexit stuff.

There are certainly serious efforts ongoing within the FS community in Edinburgh and Glasgow to create a scenario where the US banks domicile up there under some sort of retained EU membership. Good luck to them I say, and I was against independence originally (still can’t see solution to currency issue though).

duckman – Member
…and all I can find was epic being a bit flowery in his description of the Act of Union, however he was accurate in describing the ordinary people’s reaction. Like Darien, it was a while ago, we are kind of over that.

Indeed, but knowing of that episode in history we can try to make sure similar events do not happen again. And the lesson to be learned from that: an entrenched elite will sell out their countrymen against their will.

But English gold has been our bane –
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
…
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I’ll mak this declaration;
We’re bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.

And tying this to the Corbyn thread, I suspect the Labour Party is experiencing a Darien moment.

‘Twas of course a song not about how horrible the English were, but how horrible the Scots ruling class was – just for clarity.

Aye. Perish the thought someone would call the English “rogues” 🙂

I like what you did there epico. Anyway let’s not all fall out with our Southern Neighbours. A toast!

Here’s to the King, sir,
Ye ken wha I mean, sir,
And to every honest man
That will do’t again.

Your health Zulu, Jam, and thm/bridge!

gordimhor – Member

Jamba the snp majority went down but their vote went up D’hondt you know?

I think the fact that we have a democratic voting system understandably confuses people who’re used to fptp. A colleague of mine thought the SNP had been massacred in the last scottish election, because they got practically all of the UK parliamentary seats but only half of the Scottish parliament seats… I don’t think he really believed the explanation.

duckman – Member
I like what you did there epico. Anyway let’s not all fall out with our Southern Neighbours. A toast!…

Did your goblet happen to pass over a glass of water just then? 🙂

Noooooo…..Well;it might have as I toasted the little gentleman in the velvet waistcoat

Epicyclo – nice historical reference 😀

igm – Member
Epicyclo – nice historical reference

Yes, but I was somewhat sorrel about Duckman’s 🙂

It’s funny this “you hate the English” thing. A combination of narcissism and an inferiority complex. No matter how often people are told that hating the English is nothing to do with it, they leap on any nuance that proves their idea. Even automatically assuming that when we say Westminster, we really mean English people.
Why are some people so keen to be hated?

It’s a very real thing and you know it and your paragraph there and use of “some people” is just proof of the them and us mentality behind it. Many of my friends in Edinburgh were English and would often get in trouble for it on nights out. At school the English kids would get targeted and beaten up (febs), and it wasn’t unusual to see “Settler Watch” sprayed on walls etc. The Anyone but the English type of humour is the “acceptable” face of it but it’s a pretty ugly face overall.

bigjim – Member
…Many of my friends in Edinburgh were English and would often get in trouble for it on nights out…

I don’t know if it has changed since my day, but you didn’t have to be English to get into trouble on a night out in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The neanderthals will always find an excuse, don’t support the right team, got red hair, blond hair, short hair, long hair, your clothes look poofy, you look like you think you’re a hard man, you looked at them, you’re a student, posh accent, etc etc etc.