Overtaking.

Let’s do another situation. There’s a small gap in oncoming traffic, then another slightly larger one. The small gap is not enough for me to pass, but Speedy M3 uses it to pass me. Then in the next gap, he can sail by, but there’s not enough space for both of us. But I could have gone had he not been in front of me. The next gap after that doesn’t come up for 5 miles.

Or how about a slightly different one. There’s a gap which is big enough for the M3 to overtake part of the queue but not all, shortly followed by another similar but slightly bigger gap. The M3 driver sits and waits behind the car in front to give him a chance to overtake, which he doesn’t take. He’s then stuck behind the slow vehicle at the front for the next 5 miles when he could have been clear, as is the car immediately in front. How is that fair?

Can I ask another quick question? Given recent headlines, do you assume that the father in every family living on benefits is only one step away from killing his children in a fire?

Yes, good point. 😕

Well he appears to be assuming that every driver who overtakes a “queue” in stages is a reckless maniac, so I thought it a reasonable analogy.

Must admit I’ve not read most of the pages as I get the idea, so, my contribution.

As the occasional driver of a very slow vehicle (tractor) on a busy a road with numerous straights and good sight lines, I can confirm that peoples overtaking abillity is rubbish. I know how easy it is to overtake a tractor up this road because I have done it in the Land Rover with trailer, gutless vans, poxy courtesy cars and even the hi-lux. Amazing how many people don’t realise how easy it is to overtake a tractor, I’ve even been overtaken by cyclists.
Traffic builds up behind me because it won’t overtake me, the only things that struggle to pass me are loaded lorries that don’t catch up on a view point and other tractors, so I pull in for these.
Most unusual ones are the (generally) German saloons that follow me down the straights and overtake through the blind corners.

Must admit, when in the car it is quite satisfying to overtake 1/4 mile of cars on one of the good sight lines.

Must admit, when in the car it is quite satisfying to overtake 1/4 mile of cars on one of the good sight lines.

Queue jumper

Can a premier member please add the tags ‘surfmatt=awesome’ and ‘molgrips=drivingmissdaisy’ please 🙂

Or how about a slightly different one. There’s a gap which is big enough for the M3 to overtake part of the queue but not all, shortly followed by another similar but slightly bigger gap. The M3 driver sits and waits behind the car in front to give him a chance to overtake, which he doesn’t take. He’s then stuck behind the slow vehicle at the front for the next 5 miles when he could have been clear, as is the car immediately in front. How is that fair?

That’s not the situation I’m talking about. Why dont’ you comment on the one I originally posted, because that’s the one that realy annoys me.

Your situation is not as bad as mine, because he comes to the back of the queue so has to wait by rights.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

Well he appears to be assuming that every driver who overtakes a “queue” in stages is a reckless maniac,

No, I’m saying that every reckless aggressive maniac is a reckless aggressive maniac. If you have given every chance for people to make a move, and they don’t, then fine, overtake. I’ve done the same.

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF. Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

No, but they are more capable of overtaking, and from further behind, where they probably have a better line of sight.

Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

If you were going to over take, why didn’t you? How can someone further back have that much faster reactions, unless you are indeed dithering, then feeling impotent.

I think we’ve found the root cause of Molgrips problem. He doesn’t seem to appreciate the difference between “intending” to overtake & actually overtaking. If you spent less time “intending”, they wouldn’t be in a position to be overtaking you.

Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

The whole discussion regarding your position on the road & having an earlier opportunity to overtake than cars behind you, purely by road position, has been covered extensively, with the general consensus being that you simply take too long to decide to overtake.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

No, but your much quoted M3 driver will overtake faster, easier, needing less space & generally in a much less stressed manner than drivers of cars with less power. No “moral” issue here, more acceleration = less stress overtaking.

Clearly they are not giving me driving miss daisy reasonable chance 5 miles to overtake, otherwise I would.

he whole discussion regarding your position on the road & having an earlier opportunity to overtake than cars behind you, purely by road position, has been covered extensively, with the general consensus being that you simply take too long to decide to overtake

No, because you have never seen me drive, and are imagining me drive based on an incorrect reading of my posts.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first? Speed is not an issue if there is room for either (but not both) of us to pass.

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF

Then do it.

If “they” have commenced their overtaking manoeuvre and are already along-site you, preventing you from taking your opportunity, you have waited too long.

When you mention earlier that you have had this happen on numerous occasions, were you exaggerating? Serious question – not trying to stir things up further.

I’ve had it happen to me only once or twice in my driving years (I’ve been driving regularly since 1985). I drive 20k+ miles a year. Recent vehicles have been a Seat Ibiza, Honda CRV, BMW 320D and a couple of bikes.

I like to “make progress”; I have paid for advanced training in both the car and on motorcycles. I do not consider myself particularly fast/reckless. My licence is clean and I’ve never had an accident (touch wood).

EDIT: That may read like I am implying I am a driving god. I am not. What I guess I’m saying is that I realised/acknowledged my own driving skills weren’t as good as I thought they were, so I did something about it. £130 ish will see you right on an IAM course. It’s money well spent IMHO.

No, not exaggerating.

Trying to step away from the aggro now – there are plenty of people out there on the roads that I use who will force their way through, and will queue jump resulting in all the non-aggressive non-dangerous people having to wait much longer.

I do not believe this is fair.

I do not know if aracer and the others on this thread are in that category. Likewise, they do not know if I am in the dawdling hesitant category.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.
So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first? Speed is not an issue if there is room for either (but not both) of us to pass.

You are now quoting your own comments to argue against???

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first?

…and again, you state you were ready to go…big difference to “going”. Recall you stating way back in this thread that you were prepared to overtake from 3 or 4 cars back if the need arose, so what is the difference & how long did you allow for them to “intend” to overtake?

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first?

If you were “ready to go”, then you would have gone. Instead, you dithered long enough not only for someone who had less time than you to “get ready to go”, then to actually “go”. The twin outcomes of this being you get to places slower than you otherwise would, and it gives you an immense feeling of impotence for us all to poke fun at on here.

I do not believe this is fair.

I do not believe this is fair.

Unfortunately, fairness has little to do with it.

When on one of my IAM observed rides (pre passing the test). I was on the receiving end of a right bollocking for not filtering to the very front of a “queue” at some traffic lights. When asked why I had stopped behind the front two cars, I mumbled something along the lines of “it didn’t feel polite, they were at the front first.”

What then happened, was that they moved away from the lights very slowly and I was stuck behind them for a good few miles. If I’d have moved to the front of the line of cars, I’d have been away in a flash and out of everyone’s way.

If you have given every chance for people to make a move, and they don’t, then fine, overtake. I’ve done the same.

Phew – it’s only taken 10 pages to get you to agree with that. Can we stop now that you’ve agreed with the rest of us (who aren’t reckless aggressive maniacs)?

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF. Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

What exactly has that got to do with the rest of the thread? The bit where everybody else is suggesting that they do give the drivers in front of them in the “queue” a chance to overtake first before choosing to overtake in stages themselves. I’ve probably also said that 100 times by now, and you still don’t seem to be registering. You could always try pistonheads if you want some reckless aggressive maniacs to rant at – there are probably rather more of them there than here.

I do not know if aracer and the others on this thread are in that category.

So why do you wade in labelling us as such, simply because we choose to overtake a line of cares in stages in a perfectly safe and considerate manner? It would save an awful lot of time and trouble if you didn’t do that…

Phew – it’s only taken 10 pages to get you to agree with that. Can we stop now that you’ve agreed with the rest of us (who aren’t reckless aggressive maniacs)?

I’m pretty sure I’ve spent 10 pages trying to make it clear that that’s my viewpoint.

Some people seem to think that 1/10 of a second on a 200m straight is enough time to decide I’m a granny though.

So why do you wade in labelling us as such

The ‘you’ in my posts is the generic ‘you’, not any of you personally. At least, at first it was.

Unfortunately, fairness has little to do with it.

I have to disagree on that. I always try to be fair and decent, even in a car.

I have to disagree on that. I always try to be fair and decent, even in a car.

Which is highly commendable (I try to be as courteous as I possibly can too – manners maketh the man and all that jazz) and should be positively encouraged. But decisions must be made quickly – being decisive and committed, does not make you a bad person. Being indecisive, on the modern test, will result in a fail.

Being indecisive on the open road will lead to the increased frustration of other drivers who may subsequently take additional risks to get past. Leading to errors, excessive speed, aggressive behaviour and potentially worse.

For those of us who passed the test many years ago, it really is worth investing a few pounds in some advanced driver training.

But decisions must be made quickly

Your emphasis is interesting. The penalty for not making a quick decision is a slightly slower journey. The penalty for making a quick decision and getting it wrong could be death.

So it’s much better to just chill the **** out.

People seem to think that it’s really really important to make good progress on the roads. Really, it’s not that big of a deal.

If I get a really slow run up to my parents, it takes 1h40 instead of 1h30. That’ll include traffic jams, dawdling drivers, lorries, the lot. And it only adds 10 mins. It’s really not worth getting worked up over.

As above, I DO overtake cars when it’s safe, but if it’s at all marginal I don’t go for it. It’s not worth the risk. I think that as adults we should all be able to accept that sometimes you’re held up. However it seems many people can’t.

So it’s much better to just chill the **** out.

In that case, put some sounds on, sit back and let those who want to ‘make progress’ do so 8)

EDIT:

Your emphasis is interesting. The penalty for not making a quick decision is a slightly slower journey. The penalty for making a quick decision and getting it wrong could be death.

Indeed it could.

Conversely, the penalty for not making a quick decision could result in the person (or ‘queue’) behind becoming increasingly frustrated and prepared to take risks they would otherwise not do (red mist descending).

I’m pretty sure I’ve spent 10 pages trying to make it clear that that’s my viewpoint.

I’m not sure accusing anybody who has the temerity to overtake in stages of being a dangerous driver was necessarily the best way to get that across.

The ‘you’ in my posts is the generic ‘you’, not any of you personally

So who on this thread has shown any more evidence of being a reckless aggressive maniacs than you have of being dawdling and hesitant? If the answer is “nobody” then why are you even using such an argument?

I still find it strange that the person arguing so much against people making progress by overtaking is somebody who makes progress by overtaking. It would seem more obvious for somebody who didn’t ever overtake at all to do so.

Let’s knock around a few numbers.

45mph, 5 seconds deciding to pass or not to pass.

Car behind, let’s use very simplistic formula, if 0-60 = 7 seconds, then 45-60 = 1.75s – let’s add a bit more & allow for decision time too & call it 3.75s.
This leaves 1.25 seconds with the car now travelling at 60mph. Let’s completely ignore that during acceleration, the car is covering more ground than when it was at 45mph or that it may continue to accelerate beyond 60mph & look only at those 1.25s at 60mph…
The car behind that was less hesitant has now covered an extra 8.5 metres compared to you at 45mph. Enough to close the gap & be close enough or alongside preventing your overtake. Cut 0.25 of a second from the 3.75s above & that car has travelled a further 1.7 metres further than you – now more than 10 metres!!
How far have you travelled in 5 seconds at 45mph…100 metres!!

I’m not sure accusing anybody who has the temerity to overtake in stages of being a dangerous driver was necessarily the best way to get that across.

Ok not dangerous necessarily, although I don’t like to do it because I can’t guarantee that any driver waiting to pull out is going to check their mirrors.

If the answer is “nobody” then why are you even using such an argument?

There are many reckless idiots, and to be honest I can’t tell if you lot are in that group or not. You’d hardly describe yourself as dangerous if that were the case.

But really, the point is that queue jumping is rude. You can only legitimately do it IF you are absolutely sure that no-one in front if you wants to overtake. If you are forcing your way up the queue from 10 or 12 back, then you are probably delaying other people who were there before you.

I’ve also been in queues with a steady stream of fast cars doing it. Enough so that I never got the chance to overtake myself. That’s clearly wrong.

45mph, 5 seconds deciding to pass or not to pass.

5 seconds is ages. That’s borderline dithering.

Not quite sure I follow your point there though stb.

Whoa…Molgrips now decides he can sit back & chill, as the rest of us have pointed out is a perfectly reasonable way to travel & indeed, we have illustrated our good will to those wanting to travel faster by allowing them by.

if it’s at all marginal I don’t go for it

…and one of the points we’ve spent hours on is that whilst an overtake may be marginal for you, it may be perfectly reasonable for someone else in a car with greater acceleration.
It does make me question why so many words were devoted to arguing about people jumping queue’s if he can accept it is possible to sit back & relax. I am though concerned that apparently now, making a decisive manoeuvre will result in certain death.

5 seconds is definitely dithering.

If the person in-front of me hasn’t committed to their overtake manoeuvre in 2 or 3 seconds, and it was safe for me to do so, I’d have committed.

This does change significantly depending upon which vehicle I’m driving, but then I adjust my expectations accordingly. In the little Seat, overtaking opportunities rarely present themselves as I’m not comfortable with the amount of power available to get me out/past/back in quickly. The BMW is much easier and I find myself overtaking at least once or twice on my 90 mile round trip commute. On the bike it is a breeze. I can be out, past and back in in a couple of seconds without opening the bike up too much.

and one of the points we’ve spent hours on is that whilst an overtake may be marginal for you, it may be perfectly reasonable for someone else in a car with greater acceleration.

Yes… but what has happened in the past is that someone uses that opportunity to pass ME thereby denying me the next decent opportunity.

if he can accept it is possible to sit back & relax.

It’s not about the time I lose, it’s about the morality of the situation. People being selfish and greedy really upsets me.

But in turn by not taking advantage of, in their eyes, a suitable overtaking opportunity, aren’t you holding them up? Isn’t that selfish and greedy too?

Best to just let them get on with it.

Yeah but I’m first in the queue, so I should be allowed at least a reasonable chance. They can see I’m not in a sports car, that I’m looking to overtake, so they should give me fair chance.

If they can get clear of both me and the lorry, then fine, whatever. But if they can’t, they need to force their way between me and the lorry, and then they are first in the queue and not me.

Basic queueing ettiquette applies everywhere in society, except on the roads. I don’t like this. How many people have said ‘just deal with it’ on here?

If I pushed in front of you in the supermarket, would you ‘just deal with it’?

That’s borderline dithering

No, that is definitely dithering. The point is that in just 1.5 seconds a following car (the acceleration phase excluded from the calculation, even though the car is accelerating towards & past you), doing just 15mph more, has covered over 10 metres more than you.
Let’s say the driver had allowed the “thinking distance” gap of roughly 12 metres, we have used up 10 of those metres by the car travelling faster & probably another few if we allow for acceleration. In the difference in time taken to make a decision, that car is now looming in your mirror or alongside. Did they really steal your turn to pass, or were they just more decisive. Please note I have just plucked a bunch of numbers as an example, the main bit is that it only takes a small time difference in the decision to overtake for that car to be “preventing” your overtake opportunity, as you regard it.

If I’d waited 5 seconds, maybe. But I don’t wait that long.

The situation might be say, with a bend that’s opening out. They can see 200m and decide that’s time to go, but I’m not happy with a 200m gap (say) and wait til I can see 400m down the road, at which point he’s alongside.

This is splitting hairs now, but the point is that being all zoomy is actually quite aggressive behaviour in itself. Try sprinting about a supermarket and see how other people look at you.

It’s a dog eat dog world out there, and the ‘snooze you lose’ principle works here.

I’m not encouraging bad behaviour or lack of care/respect for others, that causes accidents and nobody has the right to put others at risk. But, if there’s an appropriate overtaking opportunity and the person in front doesn’t take it, then I will – providing it’s safe to do so.

It’s a dog eat dog world out there

Yes, and this is bad thing. And at odds with experiences when people are not in cars.

One incident I can remember – long straight, one car coming the other way, I’m a decent stopping distance back. There’s someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He’s deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

Sorry Mol. A couple of things:
[quotemolgrips – Member
Yeah but I’m first in the queue, so I should be allowed at least a reasonable chance.[/quote]
It sounds like you had the chance, but didn’t take it.

They can see I’m not in a sports car, that I’m looking to overtake, so they should give me fair chance.

Are you sure this has happened more than once? Really? Maybe that tells you something….

If they can get clear of both me and the lorry, then fine, whatever. But if they can’t, they need to force their way between me and the lorry, and then they are first in the queue and not me.

If they need to force their way between you and the slow moving vehicle, that would p*ss me off too – however, there should be a two second gap. I can understand that gap being smaller if you were in the process of beginning the overtake and I’d be a bit frustrated at the idiot for doing so too. However, the highway code (which we have all read recently, haven’t we?) which is the code of conduce for all road users states if we spot someone performing an overtake on us, we should leave them enough room to pull in safely.

Basic queueing etiquette applies everywhere in society, except on the roads. I don’t like this. How many people have said ‘just deal with it’ on here?

See above. You may not like it, but we have a written code of conduct. As soon as potentially lethal equipment is introduced into the equation, etiquette must take a back seat to rules and common sense.

If I pushed in front of you in the supermarket, would you ‘just deal with it’?

It’s a completely different scenario. If I were stood a few metres from the checkout fumbling in my pocket for change, then yes, I would deal with it – unless I had my bag of Michael Douglas-esque toys with me 😆

EDIT: I don’t actually have a bag of Michael Douglas-esques toys!

I’m in agreement with Molgrips here. My personal hate is people overtaking me on a slip-road to join main carriageway, across double lines. Just causes everybody to pile in towards narrow end of slip-road, braking, and general chaos, all because some monkey saw a gap not even a dentist would spot.

Problem is Molegrips, everybody is just out there for themselves. Might be a case of, cant beat ’em..

Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He’s deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

Reckless, possibly. Impatient, possibly.

What could have been done differently? If you can see that far up the road, you should have been in the position to execute the manoeuvre once the oncoming traffic has passed. Not start the manoeuvre as the traffic passes. It is just a case of planning earlier. Drop back a bit. Judge the speed of the oncoming vehicle and begin your acceleration process earlier – imagine there’s a great big elastic band between you and the vehicle you want to pass.

When I wish to overtake (in addition to making sure nothing’s coming from the other way) I check my mirrors, indicate, check mirrors again, look over shoulder (for motorbikes/things in blind spot), if clear I pull out. I don’t drive close to the vehicle in front of me (despite being a woman, I don’t tailgate) and anyway I have a 4×4 so I can usually see up the road quite well (and wouldn’t pull out to overtake unless I could see).

It bothers me when I am indicating to pull out and some **** behind me pulls out without indicating and overtakes me when I am beginning my overtaking move. I doubt they can see past me, and they obviously haven’t noticed me indicating – or are ignoring it – both of which are worrying.

Gripe No. 2. When I am towing my caravan, and am slowing for the queues at, for example, the Severn Bridge, I leave more space for braking because I am heavier. I f***ing well hate it when some C-word comes whizzing up and pops into the space I have left as braking distance. I have to brake hard(er) in order not to ram them up the arse (which I fervently wish I could do!). Get in line and wait your turn like the rest of us – it shows bad anticipation, bad manners and just generally … bad.

Rant over.

molgrips – Member

It’s a dog eat dog world out there

Yes, and this is bad thing. And at odds with experiences when people are not in cars.

One incident I can remember – long straight, one car coming the other way, I’m a decent stopping distance back. There’s someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He’s deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

And this was a bad driver, and a bad experience. He put you at risk. I wouldn’t do that.

It looks like you made your intentions obvious, and they ignored this. Agreed, reckless behaviour.

If however you didn’t make your intentions obvious, didn’t immediately take the opportunity to overtake, then I’d be gone.

I’ll just try this one again and make it as simple as possible:

1) it’s not a queue – the supermarket analogy is rubbish – if it was nobody would be allowed to overtake the vehicle at the front
2) you shouldn’t overtake somebody who’s clearly going to try and overtake (as opposed to sticking their car out occasionally but never showing any sign of doing anything more)
3) anybody who overtakes by bullying somebody who is trying to overtake themselves is a dangerous idiot – I’m assuming none of those are on this thread
4) there’s nothing wrong with overtaking a line of cars in stages when it is clear that the cars in front of you aren’t going to overtake (as is usually the case)

Is it possible for all of us to agree with that, and if not explain why it is wrong?