Molgrips This is something you feel very passionately about quite clearly. I drive 36 miles to work each day, taking in lots of B roads and the Cheddar gorge on the way. Every evening on the way home, I average (at best) 36mph, generally 10-15mph average than on the way. Now, I can and do overtake people. What’s not happened (OK, it’s happened once in 5 years from a clapped out Nissan Almera) is that someones come from behind and snuck around me and the car in front. I never have to abort my overtaking de to the cars behind me going for it and not waiting ‘their turn’
How often does it happen to you to get this wound up?

And your entrenched repetitive dogma is

All I’m trying to do is make a clear point, but I’m being massively misunderstood constantly. I hate that.

It would sound as though human courtesy might be to allow people who want to travel faster and might be in a hurry to make progress and do so,

It cuts both ways. I have said in this thread that I don’t mind letting people past when it’s warranted. However I don’t like being forced to stay back by someone else taking an opportunity that should have been mine.

not selfishly impede their progress just because you’re high and mightily first in the queue hogging the oppertunity by moving out to have a look all the time but never actually overtaking.

That’s not what I do at all. See previous post.

Thanks for the highway code spam, but it’s not really relevant.
Make your mind up – you could at least hold a position that’s coherent on the one page!

I despair, I really do. Surely it’s really obvious that the words ‘to this issue’ are implied at the end of ‘but it’s not really relevant’ in my earlier post? And even if it wasn’t, I re-stated with the added words.

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here, there’s no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

Just a quick question for you, molgrips. When an overtaking opportunity first presents itself either when a car coming the other way goes past, or when you come round a corner onto a straight, who first gets the opportunity to pull out to overtake, the person in front or the person behind?

Aracer

You’re missing the point – it’s a queue for gawds sake 😉

Molgrips This is something you feel very passionately about quite clearly.

Fairness – yes, I do feel passionately about it.

How often does it happen to you to get this wound up?

It happens on certain roads that are busy, so whenever I end up on those. It’s not that often, but when it does happen it’s one of the worst examples of downright **** rudeness I encounter in my day to day life. It depresses me that people think it’s perfectly fine.

I think people want to pretend that I am a dawdling granny who never wants to overtake, so that they can justify a selfish manoeuvre to themselves and not feel guilty.

who first gets the opportunity to pull out to overtake, the person in front or the person behind?

Surely the person in front? If I were the second person, I would wait several seconds for the person in front to look like they were going to move.

there’s no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

is that a challenge?

Surely the person in front? If I were the second person, I would wait several seconds for the person in front to look like they were going to move.

You’re missing the point. Ignore your bugbear about courtesy for a moment. Assume the car behind doesn’t care about whether the car in front wants to overtake and is going to pull out at the earliest opportunity. Which car can pull out first?

Well, it does come across that you are a dawdling granny, but there’s nothing wrong in that. You bought a Prius, sit there and be smug at 80mpg!
On the other side of it, getting angry at people in a car is the most pointless thing that I do in my day to day life, what does it matter overall? Something that doesn’t happen that often gets you so wound up? Let it go!

The one in front. They will have seen the straight first, or the car will have passed them first.

I’m sure you’re going to tell me otherwise, so I’m interested to hear your justification for it.

Actually I’m not, I’m dreading it, but you’ve all wound me up and I can’t help myself. I need banning for a day for my own sake.

Well, it does come across that you are a dawdling granny, but there’s nothing wrong in that. You bought a Prius, sit there and be smug at 80mpg!

Most of my driving is done in my Passat, 140bhp.

As aracer above, same point made a little earlier…

Surely if you are ahead on the road, you see a passing opportunity before the cars behind you…be that a clear straight ahead as you come out of a corner, or after an oncoming vehicle has passed you by. With this being the case, can you blame the person behind for being more pro-active & decisive in their overtake if they are alongside you as you intend to pull out?
If you’ve reacted as quickly, all I can think is you have an underpowered car & you have struggled to accelerate prior to moving out to pass the vehicle ahead, giving the vehicle behind the impression you’re not overtaking & they have taken the opportunity to pass.
If for the sake of a second as they blast by, you are then unable to overtake, it would be questionable if the original overtake manoeuvre was safe.

No answer from Molgrips on this & concerned regarding Molgrips comments about having to wait when 1st in “queue”, yet also overtaking from 3rd or 4th car back…which is contradictory.

My assessment of the road when looking to overtake, if more than one vehicle, includes looking for indicators and/or signs of acceleration, lane change etc
If I perceive you’re not going to pass, then, if I feel it safe, I do. I wouldn’t be too impressed if you pulled out in front of me as I was overtaking, but again, as previously stated, it is something you factor in & prepare for if overtaking more than one vehicle, so neither would it surprise me or make me feel that I have to run you off the road.
There is definitely no winding up taking place here, just pointing out a reasoned view of what I see taking place on the roads.

Apologies – can see Molgrips has answered this query while I was typing the above.
Several seconds??? Chances are the car behind you looked, decided they could pass if they get on with it, saw no movement ahead, so commenced their overtake…all while you’re patiently waiting. If someone overtaking you is so upsetting, although I can’t see why, then be more decisive yourself.

The one in front. They will have seen the straight first, or the car will have passed them first.

Right. So if you’re driving the car in front, why haven’t you already pulled out before the car behind has the opportunity to?

I don’t think there’s any sort of order when overtaking. I think you make your own decision, check your mirrors and pull out to overtake. If someone has already commenced the overtake behind you, then it’s your own fault for being too slow/hesitant, you simply wait for them to pass and have another go.
If you sit and wait for people to overtake in turn, then you could be there for ever waitng for people to overtake who have no intention of doing so.

I think the only exception to this is when there’s a queue of traffic behind a VERY slow moving vehicle in a 50/60 mph zone (tractor/roller etc), where everyone is going to overtake. It’s realistic to assume that nobody in a car is going to be content doing 15/20mph so hence all will overtake. Steaming down the outsie is likely to cause an accident.

Let it go!

When it happens, I get pissed off that I’m delayed by someone else’s rudeness (which is worse than being delayed by insecurity).

This thread is really winding me up, because it’s full of people who think it’s perfectly ok to act like arseholes.

With this being the case, can you blame the person behind for being more pro-active & decisive in their overtake if they are alongside you as you intend to pull out?

Yes! Because they need to wait more than 0 seconds to decide I’m not going to go.

If someone has already commenced the overtake behind you, then it’s your own fault for being too slow/hesitant

What makes you so sure the person behind me isn’t a lunatic?

People are always complaining about nutters on the road, and yet suddenly on this particular thread, everyone’s a great driver!

It’s absoultely **** up.

I think people want to pretend that I am a dawdling granny who never wants to overtake, so that they can justify a selfish manoeuvre to themselves and not feel guilty.

Unless they are a mind reader it would appear that you may drive like one, which is why it happens so frequently. Have you considered that as a possibility?

You haven’t said what training you have had – might be something to consider?

Edit – I don’t recall anyone saying they are great drivers, they are simply saying you are wrong!

I think the only exception to this is when there’s a queue of traffic behind a VERY slow moving vehicle in a 50/60 mph zone (tractor/roller etc), where everyone is going to overtake. It’s realistic to assume that nobody in a car is going to be content doing 15/20mph so hence all will overtake. Steaming down the outsie is likely to cause an accident.

I agree. Though I have been stuck in a “queue” behind a tractor where the car immediately behind the tractor is sitting right up it’s arse, can’t see if it’s safe to overtake and hence doesn’t despite plenty of space which 4 or 5 cars could have got past in, leaving the whole of the rest of the “queue” also sitting there waiting.

Maybe it was molly? (joke!!!)

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here,

They all miss TJ really – nothing boost their ego as much as this – you are giving them ammo as well though molly – its not like they will actually listen or reflect [ watch let me show you]

Aracer as the car goes past at 60 mph or gives you about 0.1 second advantage – that does not mean the one behind cannot pull out aggressively and quickly to make it dangerous for you to do so.
Sure you could pull out block them [perhaps even cause them to brake] and take up a racing line but it might not be the safest options to do this.

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car – surely that is impossible given they start second.

Obviously the car in front gets first chance but i am pretty sure I can drive in manner to make it unsafe for you to do this when I am behind you or perhaps even overtake you if my car is faster or I drive like a complete tool

So in short the temporal laws answer your question but it does not indicate whether it is always safe to do this.

Right. So if you’re driving the car in front, why haven’t you already pulled out before the car behind has the opportunity to?

Because I’m busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they’ve already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

Let’s do another situation. There’s a small gap in oncoming traffic, then another slightly larger one. The small gap is not enough for me to pass, but Speedy M3 uses it to pass me. Then in the next gap, he can sail by, but there’s not enough space for both of us. But I could have gone had he not been in front of me. The next gap after that doesn’t come up for 5 miles.

How can that be fair?

life isn’t about fairness, if someone makes a decision quicker than you then they get the benefits if that decision was a wise one.

if you’re in a supermarket queue at the tobacco counter bit with 2 tills and you can’t decide whether to buy a lottery ticket or not, you stand there trying to decide and the guy behind you goes to the second till, buys a ticket and wins… thats just him getting the benefit of making a good decision faster than you.

Because I’m busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they’ve already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

You didn’t check your mirrors and signal when the car was alongside you? How long does it take you to signal? Personally in such a situation I’d already be across the white line before the car coming the other way had cleared the car behind me. Does that make me a dangerous driver, or does it mean I’m making my overtake sooner so that I can pull back in sooner and decrease the chance of coming into conflict with something I can’t yet see?

it makes you a winner aracer, a winner

Again, see this too, where people will sit & wait indefinitely behind even the slowest moving vehicles. Sometimes it is necessary to pull out & pass those dithering too. Extra caution required & wouldn’t “steam” past.

I’m sure we’ve all seen the middle lane motorway drivers…80-90mph when lane is clear, lorry pulls out, outside lane clear, so they stand on the brakes & remain in middle lane at 56ish mph, speeding up when whatever “obstruction” blocked their “progress” clears their path. Same thing with some drivers & tractors.

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here, there’s no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

No, but clearly you can be, as you keep demonstrating quite admirably

Because I’m busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they’ve already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

So what you are actually saying is that the driver behind has anticipated the opportunity and while fully aware of his surroundings has taken the opportunity quicker than you because you have been too busy faffing about checking things which you should have already done!

Back to the OP…i too have had the flashing of the headlights in angry response to an overtake, its pathetic.

I drive an 8 year old Hyundai Getz with a 1.3 engine so i have to plan any overtakes well in advance….this car does not allow the quick and effortless blast past that others enjoy!

Th scene is typically a NSL road with very little traffic and a car in front doing 40-45mph….i check ahead is clear (and it does need to be clear for a good distance to allow the Getz to get up to speed!)….i pull out, around and back in and settle to a 60mph cruise….look back in my mirrors to see an irate driver flashing headlights and making w@nker signs….why?!

My theory is that these are the same road captains who try to enforce the motorway speed limit by driving at 70mph in the overtaking lanes….i’m wise to their games now anyway, i tend to stick to lane one where apart from the odd lorry i can usually maintain a better average speed than i can in lanes 2 and 3.

Try it, the look on their faces when you make unimpeded progress in lane one is priceless….its not undertaking either, the highway code allows for this if lane one is moving faster than the overtaking lanes….its only overtaking if you come up behind somebody in lane 2 and then switch to lane 1 to pass them….simply staying in lane 1 at 70mph and passing the cretins tripping over each other in lanes 2 and 3 is fine.

I thought that the rules of common courtesy in a slow-moving vehicle situation were that everybody should just wait and give the person driving the BMW precedence to do whatever they want to do?

I’ve just bought a Bimmer on that very basis – so I’m going to be mightily upset if this is not, in fact, the case. 😀

as the car goes past at 60 mph or gives you about 0.1 second advantage – that does not mean the one behind cannot pull out aggressively and quickly to make it dangerous for you to do so.

It does if you’ve already pulled out before it’s physically possible for them to do so – which as mentioned above is what I’d do in such circumstances. BTW combined speed of 120mph (more than it will be if you’re stuck behind something slow) is 5.3m in 0.1s – you get far more advantage than that unless the car behind is literally glued to your bumper. Given a car length gap between you and the car behind (which is still far less than the gap should be and will look in the mirror like they’re on your bumper) and a more realistic closing speed of 100mph you’ve got at least 0.25s advantage. Certainly plenty enough to have pulled out before the car behind does given we’re not talking about reacting here, we’re talking about anticipating.

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car

No, actually I haven’t – certainly not in a pure drag race. Whenever I’ve watched F1 the car immediately behind the safety car also takes a run when the safety car pulls off, which is exactly what I’d do if I was wanting to overtake even if I had a car behind me. So I don’t see how the car behind gets an advantage.

<waits for Junky to tell me I’m not listening because I don’t agree that the advantage is only 0.1s>

I drive an 8 year old Hyundai Getz with a 1.3 engine so i have to plan any overtakes well in advance….this car does not allow the quick and effortless blast past that others enjoy!

In one of those things, about a weeks worth of planning 🙂

MM, that’s what your hazard lights are for 😉

also, fun fact for you… you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

😆

Not seeing Molgrips argument…so the M3 driver could overtake & you couldn’t…learn to live with it.
My overtaking depends on the car I’m in & I won’t begrudge others if they’re able to overtake on a section I can’t.
If I’m in the mood to plod along, then I make an effort to move out of the way of those wishing to go faster. If I too want to overtake, then I need to be decisive…chances are M3 driver behind may still be able to accelerate from his position behind me & still pass me & vehicle I was passing if I get on with it…still comes down to being prepared to overtake & being decisive as that opportunity becomes available.

MM, that’s what your hazard lights are for

also, fun fact for you… you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

😆

MM, that’s what your hazard lights are for
also, fun fact for you… you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

Off to check my car to see if all BMW’s have this feature 😉

Again, see this too, where people will sit & wait indefinitely behind even the slowest moving vehicles. Sometimes it is necessary to pull out & pass those dithering too. Extra caution required & wouldn’t “steam” past.

Yes I agree, it is rare though. Generally the ditherers seem to be the most unpredictable drivers in my experience, so extra caution is prudent, as you say.

So what you are actually saying is that the driver behind has anticipated the opportunity and while fully aware of his surroundings has taken the opportunity quicker than you because you have been too busy faffing about checking things which you should have already done!

No, what I’m actually saying is what I’m actually saying (that’s why I’m typing it). That the person behind me has, by being overly aggressive, made themselves too close to me and is coming too fast for me to be able to justify taking the risk and pulling out really close to a speeding car.

Not seeing Molgrips argument…so the M3 driver could overtake & you couldn’t…learn to live with it.

FFS. NO!

How can I make this any **** clearer?

He took a small chance to overtake ME, thereby putting himself into a situation where he could take the next spot that I could have taken.

On the roads, the people with fast cars or the risk takers are forcing other people out of the way. This is not justifiable anywhere else in life, so why the **** is it justifiable on the roads?

chances are M3 driver behind may still be able to accelerate from his position behind me & still pass me & vehicle I was passing if I get on with it

I’ve no problem with being double passed after I’ve passed the lorry.

The problem is people taking MY chances away from me by being rude and/or dangerous. Can you not see that is an issue? If you are denying it happens like that, then please say so.

My assessment of the road when looking to overtake, if more than one vehicle, includes looking for indicators and/or signs of acceleration, lane change etc
If I perceive you’re not going to pass, then, if I feel it safe, I do. I wouldn’t be too impressed if you pulled out in front of me as I was overtaking, but again, as previously stated, it is something you factor in & prepare for if overtaking more than one vehicle, so neither would it surprise me or make me feel that I have to run you off the road.
There is definitely no winding up taking place here, just pointing out a reasoned view of what I see taking place on the roads.

This^

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car

No, actually I haven’t – certainly not in a pure drag race. Whenever I’ve watched F1 the car immediately behind the safety car also takes a run when the safety car pulls off, which is exactly what I’d do if I was wanting to overtake even if I had a car behind me. So I don’t see how the car behind gets an advantage.
If the car is already moving faster and accellerating, then it’s already got the advantage over a car moving around twenty mph slower, and having to move out then accellerate.

If the car is already moving faster and accellerating, then it’s already got the advantage over a car moving around twenty mph slower, and having to move out then accellerate.

Not quite sure if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me, but there’s no advantage if the car in front is also accelerating (just as the car immediately behind the safety car does in F1). Don’t really see why the car in front doesn’t have the same opportunity as the one behind to take a run.

molgrips; you need to calm the **** down my friend! 🙂

If someone else’s overtake prevents you from overtaking, so be it.
Wait for the next opportunity.
If their driving is inconsiderate or dangerous then they have done you a favour; the safest place for a shit driver is in front of you.
🙂

If you are denying it happens like that, then please say so.

In 18 years of driving at around 20k miles per year I can only remember one occasion where what you have described has happened – one occasion!

This was between Shrewsbury and Chester on the A41 and the driver was driving like an idiot overtaking a line of traffic by darting in and out where it really wasn’t safe to do so because of junctions, traffic conditions an upcoming blind bends. Other traffic wasn’t waiting to overtake though so slightly different to your situation.

I don’t know where you drive and maybe you are just very unlucky but that’s not my experience of the UK roads.

Please don’t ever go to Italy and get in a car or you’ll be in for a heart attack!

That the person behind me has, by being overly aggressive, made themselves too close to me and is coming too fast for me to be able to justify taking the risk and pulling out really close to a speeding car.

So that makes every driver who chooses to overtake by using more than one gap to get past a “queue” an aggressive idiot? Even if they’re not overly aggressive, don’t come up fast behind the car in front and get too close so not giving them a chance to pull out first?

Can I ask another quick question? Given recent headlines, do you assume that the father in every family living on benefits is only one step away from killing his children in a fire?

Sorry, but Countzero is using my words out of context by implying I’m racing up behind a line of cars, whereas I was explaining my situation sitting in said line of cars & viewing what is happening ahead.
This goes back to preparation – you may anticipate an overtaking opportunity & drivers of low powered cars will be well familiar with the concept of opening a gap just to accelerate back into ready to hit the beginning point of a potential overtake carrying a little extra speed & with the car now accelerating. Problem is, if the overtake isn’t possible, you have to brake, destroying momentum. For the driver with a bit more oomph under the bonnet, they can hold station with sensible gap, position car for best & earliest opportunity to view road ahead & then accelerate as & when the way is clear. If the car ahead is braking as I see clear road, am I going to wait for it to build speed again, or just slot by like it wasn’t there? That car may have been holding station too, but simply not have the acceleration to make a safe pass. Am I so wrong if I can pass safely in that space?
As for Molgrips…so a car passed you & other vehicles in a place you couldn’t overtake & then passed a lorry in a place you could, had you been a little closer (the length of the M3 & the gap you left to the M3). Big deal…just learn to live with it & don’t get so worked up. From your comments you seem to be less decisive than some (& being more decisive does not have to read “raging lunatic”). Not a bad thing in any way & not judging you, just what I see from the comments.