Osbourne says no to currency union.

Excellent THM,love what you did there,and for all to see.

So did I, quite restrained given the circumstances. And anyone CAN see your constant misquoting and misrepresentation. Seems like a pre-requisite for lots of yS arguments though TBF. You are in good company.

With his written evidence here: – please pay particular evidence to the video evidence about not being able to continue the existing opt outs – if you lose the existing opt-outs, then you’re signing up to worse conditions, its that simple!

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/643/643we13.htm

and the formal legal opinion given to government

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79408/Annex_A.pdf

An example of a positive message? and what would you say if AS did this?

A lot of “could”‘s and “might” in the formal legal opinion there.

Losing the opt outs would be a different but it’s not less democracy as someone was suggesting earlier. iScotland would also be able to properly negotiate for the things that impact it the most, such as fishing rights which the UK government has been inadequate.

A lot of “could”‘s and “might” in the formal legal opinion there.

Makes you wonder why SNP are so reluctant to let us see see their own (alternative?) formal legal opinion, doesn’t it?

Makes you wonder why SNP are so reluctant to let us see see their own (alternative?) formal legal opinion, doesn’t it?

Not really, I think we all know why they won’t release it. If, as I suspect, it says the same things as the above, I wouldn’t release it either.

As the end of the day both documents say that Scotland would, if it wanted, become a member of the EU after a set of negotiations. It’s also pointed out that there is no precedent, it’s just (informed) opinion and that things can change. Which isn’t really all that far from the SNP have been saying is it?

Pretty much but not quite WNB – Scotland will be offered access under the conditions that apply to all new members. There will be some negotiation on some details. This will take time – probably more that than SNP predict and more in line with the projections made by those more experienced in these areas – and will be under different conditions than those negotiated by the UK. The latter will still apply to rUK but not to a new state such as iS.

Cannot watch the video so cannot comment on it]
the first link says nothing about the issue and the second one is 50 + pages long

the second link has this

166.Assuming that Scotland would indeed have to accede to the EU as a new state, it would be a matter for the accession process whether it could do so on similar terms to the UK.
There is no rule that, for example, it would somehow automatically be entitled to the UK’s opt-outs from the euro or justice and home affairs. The terms of accession would have to be agreed with other Member States

Which is basically sitting on the fence and going we do not know which is what I am claiming is all we can say
as would point 179

Scottish independence would be an event without a clear precedent in EU law and is not clearly governed by any particular provisions of the EU treaties

We just do not know
we can have leaned opinion but it is just better informed speculation. there is nothing definitive because the EU are sitting on the fence on this one for the reasons I mentioned above.

the UK government have (exceptionally) published formal independent legal opinions from academics and barristers that back them up

whihc was it independent or designed to back them up. They were never likely to publish anything that countered what they thought were they

SNP continue to refuse to publish their own independent legal advice on the issue.

it does not exist apparently or it might who knows. It is certainly not helpful to their position and i would happily criticise them for this smoke and mirrors performance. It certainly tends to lead you to think they are presenting only evidence that supports their view but that is what I think both sides/politicans/posters on here do as well but the legal advice is out there. Nothing can happen till they vote and then anything could happen as it will be negotiated.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-snp-s-20k-eu-court-battle-1-3133692

Scotland will be offered access under the conditions that apply to all new members.

That’s not actually what the links say though is it. It’s probably the most likely outcome but they do make reference to the fact this hasn’t before and things may be fast tracked or concessions given etc. It’s also stated that although the UK is likely to remain a member there may be pressure to have it’s own terms renegotiated to reflect it’s own reduced population and assets.

Scotland will be offered access under the conditions that apply to all new members….and will be under different conditions than those negotiated by the UK

Could you highlight a Legal EU document saying this will be the case?
Now what would you say to AS if he were to do this ?

The EU could literally do anything as it is politics and there is NO PRECEDENT for this scenario,no real rules and no ruling for them on what will or wont happen
You have no evidence to support that claim and you know it. Is this not what yo object to AS doing? well that and breathing.

Interesting stuff on how citizens are affected [ ninfan link]as the state may be a new member but the citizens are members…gives sufficient wiggle room for almost any scenario to be credible I would have thought but basically we do not know as they have remained neutral for the reasons stated above.

Which isn’t really all that far from the SNP have been saying is it?

Well, to be fair you’d need to specify – the SNP have said a lot of things in the course of events, their position has gone from claiming that they would automatically inherit EU membership, to accepting that they would probably have to reapply, to claiming that iS and rUK would both have to reapply, to accepting that the rUK would continue with membership and iS would have to reapply but would be guaranteed entry, to claiming that Barosso was lying when he said that they would not be guaranteed entry, to then accepting that Barosso was technically telling the truth, but it was all a conspiracy by the rUK government and EU to undermine the Yes campaign

So, which version is it ‘not far from’?

You may be right on the links WNB, I didn’t open them. But if you are correct that a yes vote would alter the rUK’s terms of membership, then perhaps the idea of “why do youse bother” can be out to bed once and for all.

We bother for very good reasons. It’s our interests that are being negatively affected.

The European citizens’ initiative allows one million EU citizens to participate directly in the development of EU policies, by calling on the European Commission to make a legislative proposal.

http://ec.europa.eu/citizens-initiative/public/?lg=en

Are there a million STWers? 😆

But if you are correct that a yes vote would alter the rUK’s terms of membership, then perhaps the idea of “why do youse bother” can be out to bed once and for all.

We bother for very good reasons. It’s our interests that are being negatively affected.

I can’t see it being a big problem, it’s unlikely to change more than, say, the number of MEPs I’d of thought, but it’s a possibility.

I can’t see it being a big problem, it’s unlikely to change more than, say, the number of MEPs I’d of thought, but it’s a possibility.

I can’t remember where been I seen a report somewhere that said that rUKs number of MEPs would be unlikely to change. ie they’d get the other three countries would get more representation. As a reduction wouldn’t really fly, their population is large enough to warrent existing levels.

I think Scotland would get 9, I think that’s the minimum.

Ah, an Edinburgh defence variation. I think it might save time if we assumed you weren’t actually serious about any of your suggestions. Oh here we go:

no I reckon there will be 2 successor states.

Ha, ha, ha, ha.

It would be able to do that because it would be in such a strong position in negotiations to rejoin the EU?

aracer – Member
seosamh77 » I do agree, I only suggest that as counter to the nonsense that Scotland will end up out in the cold with a begging bowl.
Ah, an Edinburgh defence variation. I think it might save time if we assumed you weren’t actually serious about any of your suggestions. Oh here we go:

no I reckon there will be 2 successor states.
Ha, ha, ha, ha.laugh all ye want, notable that none of the above points I raised have been addressed.

Maybe you can let us know when you’re being serious then. Also addressed by whom? I refer you to my earlier point:

aracer – Member
seosamh77 » laugh all ye want, notable that none of the above points I raised have been addressed.
Maybe you can let us know when you’re being serious then. Also addressed by whom? I refer you to my earlier point:

aracer » how about you go away and find anybody sensible who agrees with your suggestions before you ask us on here to refute them.hmm, I reckon this is the interweb equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and screaming lalal alalalalalal! 😆

Ha, ha, ha, ha.

It was mentioned in at least one of the links to legal opinion and couldn’t be totally ruled out iirc.

It would be able to do that because it would be in such a strong position in negotiations to rejoin the EU?

FFS, we’re not back to seriously suggesting Scotland wouldn’t be allowed back in?

Try reading what I wrote, wnb

Try reading what I wrote, wnb

I read it fine thanks.

You seemed to be saying that we won’t able to negotiate on fishing rights at all because we’ll have to give them all away to be allowed back in?

The negotiation works both ways, I can’t see Scotland signing up to a deal that would compromise one of its biggest assets, especially when the Spanish in particular need access to Scottish waters.

Hmm, let me check…

Nope, definitely didn’t write that.

The negotiation works both ways, I can’t see Scotland signing up to a deal that would compromise one of its biggest assets, especially when the Spanish in particular need access to Scottish waters.

You reckon they’ll stay out of the EU over that?

What are you saying then? You said we’ll be in a weak position to negotiate. I disagreed.

No I don’t think they’ll stay out over that, but it would be massive kick in the teeth if the said “oh fine, we’ll bend over and continue to get **** on fishing rights”. It’s not going to happen.

yS appears pretty committed to rejoining the EU – you reckon you’ll be dictating your terms to the EU for giving them the benefit of your company?

No I don’t think they’ll stay out over that, but it would be massive kick in the teeth if the said “oh fine, we’ll bend over and continue to get **** on fishing rights”. It’s not going to happen.

So which is it, something on which they’ll agree to what they’re told to do, or something they’ll make a stand over? Or are you reckoning to get better terms of membership than the UK currently has?

You’re just playing silly buggers aren’t you.

They want to join the EU. I suspect, due to things like the fishing waters the EU would like Scotland to join as well. They’ll negotiate. Neither side will bend over.

I think we’ll get more MEP that we currently have will be better able to represent our interests. It’s unlikely that we get the same opt outs the UK currently has, but you never know. IANAL.

What won’t happen though is one side totally dictating conditions and the other simply agreeing. That’s pretty **** obvious.

No – simply providing some realism to counteract your optimism that iS would be able to negotiate better terms than the UK currently has on the basis that’s what the people of Scotland want. I’m not sure you quite understand how “negotiating” the terms on which new members join the EU actually works.

I think we’ll get more MEP that we currently have will be better able to represent our interests.

Ah, but will you get the European government that you voted for?

I think we can all agree no one gets the EU govt they voted for….does it even have a ruling party in the parliament?? However much minor changes there are to MEP numbers will make next to no difference but they will get an independent seat at the big table as council of ministers and also a commissioner [ well currently all states do] and be the presidency every 15 years or so!!!! You can make the case either way IMHO but little difference seems the fairest assessment or perhaps more influence but paying more if you insist they will get less favourable terms.

Indeed, but surely you didn’t miss the implied comparison between the claim about having some influence in the EU and the complaint about having none in the UK?

Oh dear looks like politicians do lie.
Cameron hints at a currency union

but surely you didn’t miss the implied comparison between the claim about having some influence in the EU and the complaint about having none in the UK?

WOOSH 😳

!news

Cameron hints at a currency union

Is that in some other story which you didn’t link to?

Yeah, am confused. Not the most nonsensical post in the thread by a long way mind!

I missed it too tbh

fasternotfatter’s link is interesting, I was particularly interested in this comment :

It would take up to 15 years for a cut in corporation tax to pay for itself, given the impact of a drop in company tax revenues on public spending.

I think we can safely assume that “jam tomorrow” will be official Scottish government policy should Yes Scotland win the vote in September.

Hmmm Jam tomorrow doesnt sound too bad compared to David Camerons war cry “we’re all in this together”

they must be gutted to leave the balanced books of UK behind eh

Remind me in the UK its still austerity and GO is still making the tough choices for our future prosperity or has he declared this to be the plan and the goal and everything is fine.
Its not exactly radically different from what we have now is it.

“Scotland’s economy could succeed under independence, and it would be in [the rest of the] UK’s interests to facilitate that as far as possible,” it concluded.

Surprised you missed this gem ….now how could rUK help them out eh…any suggestions say a Plan A

To those who say that means I am doing Scotland down, my reply is simple: we need more facts and less emotion in this debate,” he said.

Ok now I have gone off them 😉

Jam tomorrow doesnt sound too bad

I think it’s a vote winner.

And I suspect Alex Salmond also does.

As does every other party unless you are aware of one that stands saying it will be worse under them.

I’m not sure any party is claiming that we will be reaping the rewards of their policies in 15 years time.

And I seem to remember that the Tories are telling us how great things are right now……..falling unemployment, more jobs than in any time in British history, fastest growing economy in the western world, falling inflation, falling petrol prices, cheaper beer, lower tax on bingo, no VAT on pasties. Could things get any better ?

Ernie;that looks like you have just given a summary of the link THM posted as up as to why we are better together. Now if you give me scouts honour that is all true,I will write a letter of apology to that nice Mr Cameron and change my vote.. 😀