Yup. Which is why, after independence, I’m sure it’ll all be negotiated by sensible people

Which is the problem. We’re expected to vote Y or N to a deal yet to be negotiated and we’re assuming the people will be sensible. I don’t say Y to deals I haven’t read the small print on – this is like writing politicians a blank cheque with your future.

At the moment Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK – we contribute 9.9% of the taxes but get back 9.2% of the spending.

Not this shit again!

I vote for the Republic of Grampian and the Free City of London!

Which is the problem. We’re expected to vote Y or N to a deal yet to be negotiated and we’re assuming the people will be sensible. I don’t say Y to deals I haven’t read the small print on – this is like writing politicians a blank cheque with your future.

It’ll be negotiated as competitors on the global market, the best interests of both parties bit will only come into play by happy coincidence.

everyone sensible (the banks, Carney etc) say it’s workable with negotiation on both sides.

Of course it’s workable. But workable means that the UK would need some control over Scottish taxes/etc otherwise the UK would never sign up to currency union. Same as we see with the Euro. Given that the goal of Scottish independence is independence (at least as I understand it) then that seems like an odd way to go about it.

It’s pretty simple TBH- what you’re getting is the pre-referendum message from assorted partisan sources. It’s just a mistake to think that what they say now bears any resemblance to what will actually happen. Right now it’s expedient for the UK government to say it won’t happen based purely on today’s politics. Post referendum a different agenda takes over, that of actually running a country not a campaign.

It’s just a mistake to think that what they say now bears any resemblance to what will actually happen.

Ye Gods. Really? And this is democracy?

Given that the goal of Scottish independence is independence (at least as I understand it) then that seems like an odd way to go about it.

Talking with some friends whom are very active with the Yes campaign. It’s more about setting off in what they believe to be the right direction. There’s no belief that they’ll wake up one morning to find themselves in some wondrous socialist leaning utopia totally free from the influence of Westminster.

At the moment Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK – we contribute 9.9% of the taxes but get back 9.2% of the spending.

People keep quoting this figure – according to More or Less it’s highly debatable and if there is any ‘subsidy’ either way it’s negligible.

It seems a bit pathetic the way nationalists people keep banging on about it TBH.

Mr O is so popular north of the border that every time he opens his mouth and mentions Scotland – regardless of what he says – the Yes campaign gets more votes.

Indeed. I actually physically cringed when I heard Daves appeal to the Scottish for a no vote the other day. It felt like an elderly headmaster trying to ask the 16 year olds not to get drunk at their school leaving do. Pathetic!

They should have had a live swing-o-meter on telly to show the yes vote rocketing up with every fist-bitingly embarrassing, clipped, Eton-intoned word of it

Scottish folk -if you do vote for independence (and if it was me, I’d definitely be voting yes) could you please please please take us with you. Lots of love from the North of England

I dont envy the Scots on this one, on the one hand they have been historically marginalised )but the same can be said of anyone north of north of Northampton) and want more power. On the other hand they would be putting that power in the hands of Salmond….

Yes, please take binners 🙂 But make sure to tax him extra… 😉

Haha, this is absolutely hilarious. Those ‘chip on the shoulder’ Scots that want independence, the freeedoooooommm to create a new country but at the same expect the UK to give them exactly all the bits of the current Union that they want but at the same time taking no responsibility for their share of the national debt? Pie in the sky Scotlanders!

Good on George Osbourne I say. If Scots want independence either do it properly or STFU! The Scots can’t reject the Union, but then expect to be supported by the Union!

One thing for sure if Scotland do vote YES is it’s going to be a right horrible mess to sort out, with the rest of the UK holding all of the cards. Even without taking on their share of the UK debt, the restructuring will cost Scotland billions and billions. Where will that money come from? Yes you’ve guessed it – more borrowing. Enough debt to saddle the Scots with an un-maneagable burden for generations to come. Scotland’s credit rating would almost certainly be on a par with a third world country shortly after independence. Ever wondered the real reason why the SNP want to keep monetary union?

Still, I say go for it – if that’s what you want 😆

I vote for the Republic of Grampian

While that is clearly meant as a joke, there has been a big row between the Aberdeen council and Alex Salmond for ages now. If he can’t keep his 3rd major city (and cash-cow) on side before independence, than god knows what it would be like after.

I’d be amazed if the Scottish independence vote was based upon sound knowledge and fact. Last time I was in Scotland speaking to firends in Linlithgow the fear was that facts and knowledge on what would be best for Sctoland would for the majority be obscured by a golden opportunity to say FU to England 🙂

grum – Member

It seems a bit pathetic the way nationalists people keep banging on about it TBH.

You do realise winston_dog raised the issue in the first place? Who’s banging on about it exactly?

This is a good thing, when Scotland get independence they will be a 3rd world country inside of 5 years, we don’t want them dragging Great Britain down with them!

I would welcome that F.U.
Thanks bye, don’t come back.

the fear was that facts and knowledge on what would be best for Sctoland would for the majority be obscured by a golden opportunity to say FU to England

Indeed. Sadly there are stupid/ignorant people on both sides of the ‘debate’ as has been demonstrated recently on this thread (and just about every other Scottish independence one…)

You do realise winston_dog raised the issue in the first place? Who’s banging on about it exactly?

No I didn’t. I was on about a currency union post Independence.

The issue that was raised by ben was about the current situation.

The Book of Dreams only applies if Scotland are independent, it appears that a lot of what is in there is pie in the sky and I don’t want a currency union with an unsupportable economy.

teamhurtmore – Member
Seosamh – feel free to ignore the cross party consensus here.

I am, don’t you worry! 😀 Cross part consensus means nothing to me, not does keeping the pound to be honest(we’ll sell you our 9% share in Sterling, then it can really be as english as you all think it is.), I just want cameron and osborne involved in the debate as much as they dare.

at the same expect the UK to give them exactly all the bits of the current Union that they want but at the same time taking no responsibility for their share of the national debt?

Whereas Osborne wants us to take a share of the debt, but not a share of the assets.

It’s like moving out of the family house and still paying the mortgage.

I’d be amazed if the Scottish independence vote was based upon sound knowledge and fact.

On the contrary, as opinion polls show the more people learn about independence, the more they’re likely to vote Yes. Whereas the No argument is basically “when Scotland get independence they will be a 3rd world country inside of 5 years”.

You do realise winston_dog raised the issue in the first place? Who’s banging on about it exactly?

Well I’m pretty sure both you and bencooper (and others) have mentioned it several times on here.

If other people make spurious points about Scotland being subsidised do you think it’s best to come back with your own spurious point about how it’s actually the other way round?

True Winston, but they also know that making trade more complex and expensive isnt a good thing. Anything that’s a barrier to making more money and all that..
Does anyone else think that a yes vote is lookjng a bit more like devo max? Still rather have a Yes vote with shared pound and other things than the status quo.

And it is that “FU England” attitude that tires me out. It may only be a minority, but it is that voice we hear the most down here. Because of that many people i know firmly want Scotland gone simply to put an end to it. The prospect of this occurring year after year is draining, just vote Yes and be gone.

Does anyone else think that a yes vote is lookjng a bit more like devo max?

Depending on how “max” devo max is, I’d be all for that instead of independence. But Cameron ruled out a third option on the ballot.

The worrying bit for me is what happens after a No vote. It won’t be devo max. It won’t even be business as usual. It’ll be worse. It’s already been indicated that the Barnett formula won’t last much longer, spending will be “based on need”. And as I’m sure the people of Somerset will tell you, the government is very selective about where it sees “need”.

grum – Member

If other people make spurious points about Scotland being subsidised do you think it’s best to come back with your own spurious point about how it’s actually the other way round?

I think failing to counter misinformation is a pretty bad idea, yeah.

I’ve posted quite a lot of detail on it in the past and there’s huge amounts in the public domain so people can go and get informed if they want but it’s daft to complain at Bencooper or the Yes campaign for responding to someone else! Take it up with winstondog.

I think failing to counter lies and misinformation is a pretty bad idea, yeah.

Countering it with different lies and misinformation isn’t the way forward.

It’s funny – I always think of you and bencooper as being some of the more sensible, intelligent people on STW, but you both appear to lose your sense of perspective when it comes to Scottish independence.

And this is speaking as someone who is broadly in favour.

If other people make spurious points about Scotland being subsidised do you think it’s best to come back with your own spurious point about how it’s actually the other way round?

When did I say it was the other way round? AFAIK it is a very difficult thing to measure with any accuracy.

The point I was making and have done on several occasions,is that it is a pointless argument, the vast majority of Countries have areas that produce a larger % of GDP, in the UK London produces a huge amount of our wealth but is only 10% of the population. Go to Italy and the North “carries” a very poor Southern area. It’s how countries work.

An iSCotland would have Aberdeen producing far more per head than even the Central Belt. So what?

What may be an issue is the amount of public sector dependent jobs that Scotland currently have, particularly regarding the military which will disappear if they vote “Yes”.

grum – Member

Countering it with different lies and misinformation isn’t the way forward.

But is that what he did? I don’t believe it to be so, the financial case is certainly much stronger in one direction than the other. And the financial case that scotland will be a “third world country within 5 years” or any of the other rubbish in this thread is nonexistant.

TBF I don’t really understand why you’re complaining about Bencooper but not all that drivel.

winston_dog – Member

particularly regarding the military which will disappear if they vote “Yes”.

It really won’t.

But is that what he did? I don’t believe it to be so, the financial case is certainly much stronger in one direction than the other.

It’s highly debatable whether there is any ‘subsidy’ either way – it depends on how you look at a whole host of factors.

Confidently stating ‘At the moment Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK’ as if it’s an unequivocal fact is exactly the kind of hyperbolic claim you’d be moaning like hell about if it was the other way round.

the military which will disappear if they vote “Yes”.

I wish that would be true, but it won’t. It’ll be different, but it won’t disappear.

It really won’t.

So your keeping the nukes then?

You keeping the all the RAF bases and the aircraft?

You keeping all those soldiers who are in Scottish regiments?

You going to keep building warships on the Clyde?

Sorry Grum, I edited on you there

Winston_dog, none of those things support what you’re claiming, sorry.

Nae bother.

TBF I don’t really understand why you’re complaining about Bencooper but not all that drivel.

Because the stuff about Scotland becoming a third world country is obviously trolly crap – whereas I expect better from you and bencooper.

That’s a bit of ‘whataboutery’ as well TBH.

Sorry but I don’t think you can blame people for trying to counter troll-ey crap like Winston_dog. All that’s required for crap to win…

It’s just stooping to their level when you make unsubstantiated claims as if they are undisputed facts.

So your keeping the nukes then?

You keeping the all the RAF bases and the aircraft?

You keeping all those soldiers who are in Scottish regiments?

You going to keep building warships on the Clyde?
Those are all things that cost more money than they generate and lose more jobs than they create. Ditching the subsidy junkie arms industry would be a weight off the economy’s shoulders.

Winston_dog, none of those things support what you’re claiming, sorry.

I am not “claiming” anything.Some things are already quite clear and are declared policies both sides of the border.

If you vote “Yes” then it is quite clear the nuclear subs will have to be based elsewhere. That is not for debate. This will basically mean a much reduced Faslane Naval Base. Loss of a lot of jobs.

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships, the UK will not give that work to a Foreign country. That is not for debate. The yard will close. Loss of a lot of jobs.

Those are all things that cost more money than they generate and lose more jobs than they create.

Thanks for that. I didn’t realise that nuclear subs didn’t carry many fare paying passengers.

How do they “lose more jobs than they create”?

It’s like moving out of the family house and still paying the mortgage.

No it isn’t. It’s like moving out and taking part of that house with you.