Osbourne says no to currency union.

Which is the least worst option?

Here’s another – with independence, we can get rid of those horrific weapons of mass destruction, and spend the money on helping people not trying to kill them.

If only (genuinely) that were true. WMD will simply still be there but you will have no control over them whatsoever (DA, DT). YS is also committed to spending EXACTLY the same % of GDP on other means of killing people. Different brand, but it still smells like coffee.

why this bothers you so much

To coin a phrase, hello (tap, tap) is this thing on? These changes and the irresponsible threats that go with them have implications for all of us. Please don’t forget that in its confusion, yS is asking rUK to backstop the economy without having control over the ludicrous fiscal plans laid out in the BoD (not to mention other unfunded liabilities, policies and fairy tales). It takes an extreme level of arrogant insularity, to believe that we should not be bothered and I am sure that you can be accused of neither Ben. The answer, on reflection, is obvious….

And we don’t live in a democracy, you just think we do.

As I said earlier in the thread, I think there’s less transparency than you think.

I’ve dealt with ineffecitive Ministers who rely so heavily on their civil service team that you negotiate with the civil servant and the Minister rubber stamps it. I can’t find the link at present but I think it was last week there was a debate about the Committee system, which is supposed to be the backbone of Holyrood transparency, being bypassed.

You may have a point about Blair kona. Look at what he said in his memoirs:

The Scots were notoriously prickly about the whole business.

I always thought it extraordinary: I was born in Scotland, my parents were raised there, we had lived there, I had been to school there, yet somehow – and this is the problem which nationalist sentiment unleashed – they (notice the ‘they’) contrived to make me feel alien.

Language has to be used carefully. They were incredibly sensitive to the fear that the Scottish Parliament would turn out to be a local council (which it never was). The Scottish media were a PhD dissertation about chippiness all unto themselves. They could spot a slight that to the naked eye was invisible. Once I gave an interview on why the Parliament should have tax-raising powers, in which I said: ‘If even a parish council can, why shouldn’t the Scottish Parliament?’ – which led to the headline ‘Blair compares parliament to parish council’, which even by their standards was quite some misinterpretations.

😉

You really want to live in a democracy?

Death penalty?
EU membership?
Immigration?

Maybe have a look at the polling on those issues and consider why it is that we don’t live in a democracy, and if you would really prefer it if you did?

my suspicion Ben is that what you really want is to limit democracy to those things where you think people will agree with you, and not to the issues you find more problematic…

You really want to live in a democracy?

Death penalty?
EU membership?
Immigration?

Maybe have a look at the polling on those issues and consider why it is that we don’t live in a democracy, and if you would really prefer it if you did…

my suspicion Ben is that what you really want is to limit democracy to those things where you think people will agree with you, and not to the issues you find more problematic…

If you can pull some polling information that show Scots are in favour of the death penalty and want stricter immigration then I’ll be impressed. Same for EU Membership, otherwise there wouldn’t be such a big deal being made about it.

My suspicion is that you know fine well that a iScotland would have a more democratic government so are attacking Ben rather than the issue at hand.

Scotsman article Can’t find a poll offhand, but page 1 of google search shows a Scottish newpaper article expressing the concern, so presumably the journalist had a basis for it.

The thread momentarily went quite good for a bit there, good work from all the usual suspects to make it terrible again.

(devo max would increase the influence of Scottish voters far more than any false independence) There will be no revolution.

Correct, however it isn’t on the table, nor will a no vote be met with anything other than Scotland being squeezed till the pips squeak. So therefore independence would at least give us a CHANCE to shape our own future. If this ref was on devo max THM would be wasting his bandwidth opposing it as it would be a landslide,but it isn’t. A no vote by even the narrowest margin will not be seen as a suggestion to implement change(devo max) to remove the strength of the nationalists,it will mean a sucession of cuts (as history has previously shown us) as a punishment for daring to vote in a SG with an agenda. I would disagree with your summary of a post yes vote society,we have a fairly middle of the road mob in charge.Our fight against the bedroom tax is an example of a slightly softer attitude towards social care,prescriptions would be another.

Has the page layout gone wrong for everyone else or is it just me?

Yup, it’s borked….As I type this I can hear the rising tide of a pupil shouting his potty mouthed head off as he is brought to my door….see ya!

The Scottish polling is clearly in favour of the Death penalty, against EU membership, and anti immigration!

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/if-scotland-were-independent-do-you-think-it-should-join-the-eu
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-or-disagree-that-sometimes-the-death-penalty-is-the-most-approriat
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/what-are-your-views-on-immigration-to-the-uk

So, you really want more Democracy? How about a referendum on those issues eh?

I thought not! 😉

Hmm, my attempt to use italics seems to have broken the page formatting. Sorry.

The Scottish polling is clearly in favour of the Death penalty, against EU membership, and anti immigration!

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/if-scotland-were-independent-do-you-think-it-should-join-the-eu
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-or-disagree-that-sometimes-the-death-penalty-is-the-most-approriat
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/what-are-your-views-on-immigration-to-the-uk

So, you really want more Democracy? How about a referendum on those issues eh?

I thought not!

Well, there you go. I’m either very out of touch with my fellow Scots or the polls graphics on the website aren’t telling the whole story.

One thing that jumps out is that agreeing that *sometimes* the death penalty is the best option is very different from ‘do you agree we should bring back the death penalty’ and the immigration question relates to the UK, not an iScotland.

Tbh though, if a party want’s to bring those policies into their manifesto because that’s what the people want, they should do it. That’s what it’s about, eh?

. If this ref was on devo max THM would be wasting his bandwidth opposing it.

Hear, hear ducks. Sadly when I suggested a long time ago, that devo max might the the best solution for Scotland, I was accused on here of arrogantly telling the Scots what they should do!!! It’s a funny old place STW but at least you have now squared the circle this time – a fittingly “positive” contribution.

Perhaps now you will see why I also suggest that having a vote on something that most people believe has a MUCH better alternative (and which in turn (ie the alternative) is supported (to the extent that anything factual can) by the BoD and the arguments put forward by yS AND is not (as?) detrimental to either Scotland or rUK) is, while democratic, little more than an expensive vanity project.

You may have a point about Blair kona

I’m not sure if his claim that Scots were trying to make him feel alien as Prime Minister is really true, but if any were, perhaps it’s because…he hadn’t lived, studied or worked there for 30 years, and didn’t represent a Scottish constituency.

Perhaps the more interesting question is why so many English people want to make him feel alien…

Hear, hear ducks. Sadly when I suggested a long time ago, that devo max might the the best solution for Scotland, I was accused on here of arrogantly telling the Scots what they should do

That probably got lost in some of your more flowery rhetoric.
For the record, I favour devo max as another step away from the UK,as I am a nationalist. A few years of Devo max would be enough to a)decide whether that made being part of a wider fed UK work for us. b)if it didn’t be more prepared to stand on our own two feet,without impacting as much on the rUK. I said early on this thread that the best stroke rUK made was making it all or nothing.It would have seemed an obvious transition, Devolution,Devo max,full independence. If we get a yes vote it will be a painful decade. A close no/yes vote will not resolve anything,and it didn’t have to be this way. In the event of a yes vote the horse trading will probably leave us with a version of devo max and a pile of bad feeling on both sides.

Its brilliant to see ernie and THM try and twist this debate about how you are waiting to hear of arguments – yes you are floating voters just waiting to be persuaded?

Re democracy as Ben claims it would take some pretty amusing posting to claim that Scotland wanted this current govt or that historically [ over the last 50 years] they do not regularly get govts thatt they did not vote for. Its a fairlydcredible point to make that they want an iS so they get a government that represents their views and that UK does not achieve this
When this point is made – lets call it a fact as this is what it is- the No campaign get all shitty

bencooper – Member
Real tangible advantages? Being able to live in a democracy is a pretty big advantage**..So independence is simple – I want to live in a democracy, and at the moment I don’t.
THM reply I am sure that such a comment would be “well-received” (???) by those living in truly undemocratic states.

** yes it is, we are all very fortunate.

Its not that the arguments are not out there it is when they are presented to you you give childish replies to them – in much the same way you do when I ask for information about why a currency is not an asset. Its certainly a novel pedagogical approach you have there.
Instead of doing this perhaps you could explain how scotlands democratic choice is reflected in ALL UK elections including this one. Perhaps you could tell them how a govt they do not elect reigning over them is democratic and how fortunate they are to have their views ignored and get the govt that another country voted for?
You cannot hence you do this sort of guff instead-
So THM explain why Scottish democracy is best served by having governments they do not vote for – its a tricky one that is it not THM – I wish you luck in attempting it but I expect ignorance will be your tactic here as clearly an iS will get the govt scotland chooses and the UK does not ALWAYS deliver this- Yes that would be the envy of the world …chuckles

Its brilliant to see ernie and THM try and twist this debate about how you are waiting to hear of arguments – yes you are floating voters just waiting to be persuaded?

I have no idea about THM but I have always been opposed to the break up of the UK (I support radical federalism though) My mind is firmly made up about that.

I am however perfectly prepared to listen to someone who presents a powerful argument for Scottish independence, and if it’s convincing and persuasive enough I am also perfectly prepared to change my mind.

Why would that be a concept which is difficult for you to understand ? I do try my best to tailor my politics to suit what I perceive to be factually correct, there’s really no point in supporting theories which you don’t believe in.

EDIT : RE : “there’s really no point in supporting theories which you don’t believe in” the exception for that of course is when conclusions are democratically arrived at, then the decisions of the majority override personal individual opinions and I am perfectly happy to support policies/theories which I don’t necessarily agree with or believe in. Democracy isn’t always painless 🙂

I am however perfectly prepared to listen to someone who presents a powerful argument for Scottish independence, and if it’s convincing and persuasive enough I am also perfectly prepared to change my mind.

AS could say the same thing in reverse it would be just as believable as you and THM 😉
That is not a dig to be clear the same is true for me on many issues as well.

If them getting a govt they choose is not a good enough reason then I doubt the others will work either.
Also a fan of fedaralism FWIW

I said early on this thread that the best stroke rUK made was making it all or nothing.

+1

Which makes the argument that AS is the most “astute/best” etc politician in the UK slightly far of the mark IMO. As “I also said earlier” it would actually be quite funny if the consequences for us all were not so serious. One day, all of these guys will remember that they are civil rather than self servants.

If we get a yes vote it will be a painful decade.

Indeed it will. I am glad you admitted it though. If we say these obvious things we get accused of being negative!

ernie_lynch – Member
…I am however perfectly prepared to listen to someone who presents a powerful argument for Scottish independence, and if it’s convincing and persuasive enough I am also perfectly prepared to change my mind…

Why do you think the question of democracy for the Scots needs powerful arguments?

Surely the concept of democracy stands on its own feet?

The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.

Having a more local government may not seem like perfect solution to you, but to us it is certainly a much less worse solution, and one where we can more easily affect the views of whatever administration we choose, especially as we have proportional representation.

A Devo Max solution would have probably been an outstanding success. We would still be in the UK, and most people would have been happy with that.

There is a suspicion that the reason it was not on the table was because the UK govt does not want Scotland to have more say in its internal affairs and was relying on scaring enough people so that the full independence option failed.

teamhurtmore – Member
Which makes the argument that AS is the most “astute/best” etc politician in the UK slightly far of the mark IMO…

If AS is stupid, it is because he’s a carrier of a powerful virus.

It seems to infect his opponents with far more serious effects than it has on him. 🙂

Indeed it will. I am glad you admitted it though. If we say these obvious things we get accused of being negative!

I think most of are big enough ans astute enough to know that despite everyone’s best efforts (if that’s indeed what we get) there will be a fairly length period of transition, including before and after the split. We’re all hopeful and indeed some of us confident that after than when things have settled a bit things will be better for the majority of us.

May I also say that it’s often not what you say THM, but how you say it.

One day, all of these guys will remember that they are civil rather than self servants.

One day you will realise that your opinion of AS is not everyone elses opinion. he is serving the people who elected him. Have you seen what the SNP stood for?is he delivering it? Its not even a decent attack is it THM? you would not pass a student who said this in an exam paper. he is delivering on his mandate and rather well it is just that his people are not pro Union england dwellers.

Anyway could you explain why Scotland getting the govt they choose is not a compelling reason to vote for independence? Why its great democracy that they get one they dont vote for?
Your halcyon view of the UK union is at least, on this specfic issue, as distorted as his view of the aftermath . Like him you just dodge and ignore a tough question [ he calls england bullies you call me a troll] with rabble rousing rhetoric
IMHO you know you are on dodgy ground explain how that is good or not a compelling reason hence the evasion.

Imagine what you would say were AS to do this ?

A Devo Max solution would have probably been an outstanding success. We would still be in the UK, and most people would have been happy with that.

There is a suspicion that the reason it was not on the table was because the UK govt does not want Scotland to have more say in its internal affairs and was relying on scaring enough people so that the full independence option failed.I always thought it was hilarious how that turned on it’s head. Referendum is annouced, yes/no question, the idea was touted that there should be a 3rd, the nationalist jumped onto supporting it(imo in the knowledge that people would say black is white). the uk government say black is white, hey presto, we get a yes no vote.

It was utter brilliance from the nationalists imo. A 3rd question would have destroyed any thought of an IS actually happening.

One day, all of these guys will remember that they are civil rather than self servants.

Salmond is not a civil servant and he’s not supposed to be. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Excellent spot KB, you are correct. What I should have said is:

one day all of these guys will remember that they are public not self servants

one day all of these guys will remember that they are public not self servants

He is serving the public who elected him and delivering on the party’s manifesto promise. Sounds fair to me.

Are you suggesting that the people in that poll are stupid? Because that’s the only possibility I can see for people thinking that the death penalty is sometimes the most appropriate sentence, but that we shouldn’t have the death penalty.

The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.

Where does that argument stop though?

you only need to look at the Scottish parliament election results for 2011

Where is the political representation for those in the blue bits? Can they not rightfully claim that their vote does not have any value because its outnumbered by Labour and the SNP? How about them up in the Orange bits? Are they being denied democracy?

Or is it only a denial of democracy when you’re not getting what you want?

Are you suggesting that the people in that poll are stupid? Because that’s the only possibility I can see for people thinking that the death penalty is sometimes the most appropriate sentence, but that we shouldn’t have the death penalty.

No, but can you not see that they’re different questions?

If in the hypothetical situation of total 100% guilt with no chance of reform then, yes, death would be the best thing, but as you can’t ever get that situation then no, I wouldn’t want a death penalty.

with independence, we can get rid of those horrific weapons of mass destruction, and spend the money on helping people not trying to kill them.

I can’t believe people are naive enough to think this is the case. iScotland isn’t suddenly going to become some hippy dippy place, it will still have a military, it will certainly train alongside rUKs military and they will support and fight together. I’m pretty certain that even if an iScotland had existed 15 years ago their troops would have been committed to Afghanistan and Iraq.

No, but can you not see that they’re different questions?

If in the hypothetical situation of total 100% guilt with no chance of reform then, yes, death would be the best thing, but as you can’t ever get that situation then no, I wouldn’t want a death penalty.

So, you’d have no problem with putting it to a referendum I take it?

So, you’d have no problem with putting it to a referendum I take it?

No problem at all if it was in a party manifesto. The people get what the people want. That how it works.

Where is the political representation for those in the blue bits? Can they not rightfully claim that their vote does not have any value because its outnumbered by Labour and the SNP? How about them up in the Orange bits? Are they being denied democracy?

Or is it only a denial of democracy when you’re not getting what you want?

We have proportional representation, the tories of scotland are better represented in the scottish parliament than they are in westminster. 15/129 MSP are tory.

FFS, If “all of these guys” were evenly vaguely delivering on what they promised, half the threads on the chat forum would be redundant. Farrage will claim that he is representing people, and he is. And thanks to the beauty of freedom of speech, he is able to demonstrate how ridiculous many of his comments are, and how inaccurate the supposed facts that he uses to supported them are as well. Ditto with the deceitful one. And people should be free to point out the absurdities as they see fit.

So we recently had the debate between Clegg and Farage that was supposedly based on the facts not the people. It was perhaps fitting, that both chose to adopt a relatively “liberal” interpretation of facts!

Given his excellent academic background, perhaps I expect too much from AS? He certainly does disappoint though and pretty much on a daily basis in this context. As Duckman said, you need stamina not to be worn down by it.

Maybe, but only a pedant would suggest you can have one without the other.

If in the hypothetical situation of total 100% guilt with no chance of reform then, yes, death would be the best thing

Well clearly you have a different view on the death penalty than I (and a lot of people opposed to it) do then. You’re a man of the people.

Sorry, is that if a referendum on the death sentence was in a party manifesto, or if the death sentence was in a party manifesto?

Why try and impose party political qualifications on your precious Democracy – how about the Swiss method, where a significant petition launches a right to a binding referendum?

Thats real Democracy! Why would you be afraid of it?

(I think I know why 😉 )

FFS, If “all of these guys” were evenly vaguely delivering on what they promised, half the threads on the chat forum would be redundant. Farrage will claim that he is representing people, and he is. And thanks to the beauty of freedom of speech, he is able to demonstrate how ridiculous many of his comments are, and how inaccurate the supposed facts that he uses to supported them are as well. Ditto with the deceitful one. And people should be free to point out the absurdities as they see fit.

You’re doing it again THM. Comparing Farrage and AS is a weak attempt to discredit him. As is your constant use of your pet name for him. It does you no favours. Can you not see that there’s a huge difference between a party that makes clear its aims in its manifesto then works to deliver it manifesto once elected? Especially given that fact that AS has a mandate for the agenda he is pushing.

Well clearly you have a different view on the death penalty than I (and a lot of people opposed to it) do then. You’re a man of the people.

Meh, it was a hypothetical. Personally I’m opposed to ever killing other humans, but if a party was to put that in their manifesto, get elected then put out a referendum on the issue that’s just them doing their job. I’d vote against but that’s not the point.

Sorry, is that if a referendum on the death sentence was in a party manifesto, or if the death sentence was in a party manifesto?

Why try and impose party political qualifications on your precious Democracy – how about the Swiss method, where a significant petition launches a right to a binding referendum?

Thats real Democracy! Why would you be afraid of it?

(I think I know why )

Either I guess. I wouldn’t vote for anyone pushing it, but that’s just me.

Personally I don’t find the Swiss model all that helpful. It may seem a good idea, but turnouts tend to be low and at a guess I would assume having referenda on everything would add significant cost and expense to governing the country.