Why do you think the question of democracy for the Scots needs powerful arguments?

Surely the concept of democracy stands on its own feet?

Apparently not. Every single opinion poll, as far as I’m aware of, has shown the Yes camp to represent a minority point of view. I have seen no evidence to show this to be grossly inaccurate.

The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.

But you have failed to convince “most Scots” so far.

If the case presented by the Yes camp is so overwhelming and needs so little explaining then why with only 6 months to go, ffs, don’t the overwhelming majority of Scots support it ?

Now personally I think that Yes Scotland will probably win on the day, but no one knows for sure. One thing we can absolutely sure about is that there is not, and there won’t be, overwhelming support for independence, despite the people of Scotland literally having had their entire lives to think about it.

Why is that, if the case is so watertight and needs so little explaining ?

.

And btw your claim that this is all just about democracy falls seriously short. Firstly the politically system being offered is not in any significant way different to the existing one. The gap between politicians and those they purport to represent will be just as wide as before – lack of confidence and satisfaction in politicians and their ability to respond to the needs of the people is not a uniquely Scottish phenomenon, it exists in all countries with simular systems of governments.

Secondly, far from extending the influence of Scottish voters over affairs which effect their lives this alleged independence will diminish their direct involvement.

And finally I simply can’t take seriously anyone who will happily hand over sovereignty to unelected foreign bureaucrats when they claim to want to have, not just more democracy, but more national/local democracy.

I’m all in favour in self-governing autonomous societies but I don’t see how voting yes in September will be a step in that direction.

I’m not quite sure that’s what you meant, but in any case, I thought the argument was “The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.” – well looking at the general election result, 61% of Scottish voters voted Labour or LibDem, and they have 315 out of 650 seats in parliament. ISTM that the Scottish voters have far more power in the UK parliament than the Southern Scots do in the Scottish parliament.

ninfan – Member
“The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.”
Where does that argument stop though?

you only need to look at the Scottish parliament election results for 2011

You’ll always get that, but by bringing the govt closer to home it’s more likely to work for you.

Anyhow, the Conservatives in Scotland expect to do quite well out of independence. Their current low standing is because the electorate has never forgiven Thatcher and the “nasty party”. After independence they start with a clean slate and will be able to stand on their own merits. Don’t be surprised to see them in a coalition govt in Scotland.

Conservatives for independence

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-new-poll-shows-yes-shift-1-3350563

Or is it only a denial of democracy when you’re not getting what you want?

Its only a denial when you are trolling 😉
A point so weak you do not believe it but if you really make me I can explain why a country is different from a constituency and why PR is better than FPTP but you already know that.

Ditto with the deceitful one

people explain why your question is a poor one and you do a long withering ad hom leading to one on AS whilst making not one defence, nor reply, of your question. Not sure whether to laugh at you or shake my head in despair.
It really is stuck record time and I think we have all got what your view will be on every issue from here to the vote. AS is a BS and a liar – its certainly a positive message of why to vote for the union 😛
I am still waiting for your explanation about democracy – you seemed to value honesty and integrity shame you dont deliver on it…perhaps your a politician 😉

Oh, so “If in the hypothetical situation of total 100% guilt with no chance of reform then, yes, death would be the best thing” was just a “negotiating position” then? 😀

piemonster – Member

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-new-poll-shows-yes-shift-1-3350563

Still no overwhelming support for Scottish independence eh ?

Not yet, but the gap is narrowing

ernie_lynch – Member
…Apparently not. Every single opinion poll, as far as I’m aware of, has shown the Yes camp to represent a minority point of view. I have seen no evidence to show this to be grossly inaccurate….

Since returning to Scotland 10 years ago, just about every pre election poll I have seen has forecast disaster for the SNP.

Yet somehow they keep increasing their vote. Makes one question whether there may be a teeny bit of bias in the poll mongers, or if they are simply incompetent.

There is only one poll that counts, and that’s the ballot box.

Democracy, a wonderful thing.

Ah, so you‘re in favour of the death penalty.

Still no overwhelming support for Scottish independence eh ?

No one has claimed otherwise but the question is which side has increased its support and which has decreased it

That Lord BS of eck, despite THM’s constant criticism, seems to be doing rather better than the No campaign what with increasing his support whilst their reduces.

Will it be enough not yet but at the vote who knows?

Not yet, but the gap is narrowing

The gap is narrowing that’s why come September I think Yes Scotland will probably win.

But tell me…… why is that up until now less than half of all Scots have been convinced that independence is a good idea ?

Personally I would have thought that if it was such a good idea, and more importantly doesn’t even need explaining, that a huge majority of Scots, I dunno – two thirds ? would support it.

All is not as it seems.

aracer – Member
seosamh77 » We have proportional representation, the tories of scotland are better represented in the scottish parliament than they are in westminster. 15/129 MSP are tory.
I’m not quite sure that’s what you meant, but in any case, I thought the argument was “The problem the No campaign is not addressing is that most Scots do not believe that their vote has any value because it is outnumbered by the SE vote.” – well looking at the general election result, 61% of Scottish voters voted Labour or LibDem, and they have 315 out of 650 seats in parliament. ISTM that the Scottish voters have far more power in the UK parliament than the Southern Scots do in the Scottish parliament.

Well that’s fairly easy to reconcile, we don’t particularly believe westminster politicians represent anyone bar business.

That may not change in an IS, I know, but if it is going to change to it’d be much easier in a smaller grouping.

Essentially the belief is that the smaller the democratic grouping, the more democratic it will be, potentially*

*i understand politicians being **** will still be prevalent in an IS, but it’ll be easier to chase them.

That’s the crux of the matter for me tbh. Nothing to do with nationalism, which I dislike. To sum up, imo westminster is democratically bankrupt, time for a change.

Democracy, a wonderful thing

Is it? Like currency options, it has pros and cons. Unlike a CU between iS and rUK, democracy is better than the alternatives but it is far from perfect or wonderful. There is always the danger that the views of the majority will rule roughshod over those of the minority. Have we heard that concern somewhere….?

1. the politically system being offered is not in any significant way different to the existing one. The gap between politicians and those they purport to represent will be just as wide as before….

2. … far from extending the influence of Scottish voters over affairs which effect their lives this alleged independence will diminish their direct involvement…

3. …..I simply can’t take seriously anyone who will happily hand over sovereignty to unelected foreign bureaucrats when they claim to want to have, not just more democracy, but more national/local democracy.

Blimey its nice, if rare, to be able to go +1 Ernie!!

I would have thought that if it was such a good idea, and more importantly doesn’t even need explaining, that a huge majority of Scots, I dunno – two thirds ? would support it.

This works just as well as a “question” re the Union 😉

I certainly admire your optimism in the face of reality.

But tell me…… why is that up until now less than half of all Scots have been convinced that independence is a good idea ?

More than half are “better informed” and/or have actually read the BoD, perhaps?

This works just as well as a “question” re the Union

I was asked :

Why do you think the question of democracy for the Scots needs powerful arguments?

Surely the concept of democracy stands on its own feet?

The evidence suggests this is not the case.

1. the politically system being offered is not in any significant way different to the existing one. The gap between politicians and those they purport to represent will be just as wide as before….

2. … far from extending the influence of Scottish voters over affairs which effect their lives this alleged independence will diminish their direct involvement…

3. …..I simply can’t take seriously anyone who will happily hand over sovereignty to unelected foreign bureaucrats when they claim to want to have, not just more democracy, but more national/local democracy.

You have no evidence what so ever of points 1 and 2 and 3 is exactly what the current system looks like, but with Scottish interests being represented by the UK who don’t really have much interested in keeping us happy. Just look at how pissed off out fisherman have been with the UK Government at their fishing rights negotiations.

Oh, so “If in the hypothetical situation of total 100% guilt with no chance of reform then, yes, death would be the best thing” was just a “negotiating position” then?

I chuckled, but, it was a hypothetical as I said, not representing my own views.

More than half are “better informed”, perhaps?

More than half are scared of change no matter what it might bring? More than half enjoy clinging on to the past?

I honestly can’t believe the idea from some here that an iScotland would have too much democracy. 🙄

aracer – Member
I certainly admire your optimism in the face of reality.

I’m well aware that it won’t happen overnight, but I also believe that if democracy stands still, it ultimately becomes undemocratic. So my long term hope(and I know that’s all that they are) is that there could be innovation in the democratic structures under an IS.

The argument for me isn’t about specifics or details that I’m continually told are supposedly important, it’s very much about what ifs.

More than half are scared of change no matter what it might bring? More than half enjoy clinging on to the past?

You need to come up with some powerful arguments 💡

This democracy everyone talks about, doesn’t exist does it, it really means ‘middle class swing voters’. The irony of the SNP quote in that Scotsman poll article, is that he mentions Westminster only appeals to ‘Middle England’ swing voters, yet look at the independence polling and the demographic that the SNP needs to be convinced to vote Yes is you guess it the Scottish Middle classes.

You need to come up with some powerful arguments

True, but there are some people who you’ll never convince. Look over at the majority of people going to Ibrox every other weekend. There’s not many of them (or not many will admit it anyway) who will vote Yes and as a rule they hate AS and love the Union. I’m sure there are other examples as well.

I do think that you’re right though. Lots of people want more powers and bigger voice but are either don’t think independence s the way to do it because of the risk involved, some because of the cost involved and others are just a bit apathetic.

Apathy may prove the deciding factor

piemonster – Member
Apathy may prove the deciding factor

I reckon, it’ll be 80+% turnout. no lower than 70% anyhow.

What a persuasive argument for independence.

Once again, it amazes me how many people on here seem against the whole idea of democracy.

You seem to have missed the thrust of the recent argument on here, that the problem isn’t one of too much democracy with iS.

Now I’m really confused. Are you suggesting that those pointing out iS will have less democracy are anti democracy?

aracer – Member

What a persuasive argument for independence.

I would go into them, but to be honest, youse are all far too anal on here to have a conversation like that.

You seem to have missed the thrust of the recent argument on here, that the problem isn’t one of too much democracy with iS.

It was from someone with all the “so you support the death penalty” type stuff.

Sure, you join the EU you put up with the treaties and the bureaucrats that come with it in exchange for the benefits it brings. At the same time though we get a more representative government and we get rid of the unelected House of Lords. Doesn’t sound like less democracy to me.

Sure, you join the EU you put up with the treaties and the bureaucrats that come with it in exchange for the benefits it brings.

Hardly makes for ‘a more representative government’

If Scotland were independent do you think it should join the EU?

Apathy may prove the deciding factor

If Scotland votes yes then it really needs to decisive. If Better Together scraps in then nothing much will happen (other than possibly devo max if Labour are returned in Westminster) and everyone will stay calm and carry on and the whole issue will not be raised again for a very long time.

If Yes Scotland scraps in then it will be a nightmare for the Scottish government as they try to negotiate without a clear, unambiguous, and decisive mandate. Add to this the fact that will have to carry with them the goodwill of almost half of the electorate that didn’t vote for independence, and those who did that will understandably have high expectations, and you have a very messy situation fraught with some very serious problems.

An overwhelming Yes vote would at least give the Scottish government the excuse that whatever problems might arise they will simply be carrying out the clear wishes of the Scottish people and therefore ultimately aren’t to blame.

whatnobeer – Member

Sure, you join the EU you put up with the treaties and the bureaucrats that come with it in exchange for the benefits it brings. At the same time though we get a more representative government and we get rid of the unelected House of Lords. Doesn’t sound like less democracy to me.

These islands would also get more representation in the European parliament with 2 states.

Is that a variation on the Edinburgh defence?

but there are some people who you’ll never convince.

I am still clinging to the hope ernie and THM can be persuaded 😉

Are you suggesting that those pointing out iS will have less democracy are anti democracy?

if they believe it then they are wrong
1. Scotland did not vote for the current govt and will always vote for the govt they get in iS
2 They are in the EU now and after so that is no change

How is it lesser?
Just saying it will be less democratic does not make it true anymore than stating your opinion makes it true [ though of course we all agree on Lord BS of eck 😉 ]

I agree with Ernies idea that it should be a significant majority that decide either way.
I also think that votes like this should have a mininimum turnout 60% and 60% for a result to be binding.
Though the Australian system of mandatory voting is also looking appealing to stop the apathy in general elections.

It doesn’t appear the borders and northern islands will ever get the government they voted for in iS.

[ though of course we all agree on Lord BS of eck ]

You and me maybe, I have my suspicions that some on here love him though.

aracer – Member
Is that a variation on the Edinburgh defence?

Nope, just a suspicion that youse are incapable of the abstract thought required and a belief that it would descend into tedium.

Pretty much like how the thread is going. I’ve no wish to add another layer.