Osbourne says no to currency union.

Ben. – I am struggling with PW too

Jfgi?

I did FGI, but didn’t think it was Presbyterian Women or Poets & Writers.

No, they didn’t say that, listen again – they said that you’d be back of the queue with the other foreigners on the waiting list, not that you wouldn’t be able to have treatment in the rUK

If you think that people who have non-NHS funded treatment are at the back of the queue you’re sadly mistaken.

Wan that’s right, Scots that can afford private treatment in the UK will still be able to jump the queue. Scots that can’t afford private treatment will not be able to and will miss out on the specialist treatment that is only available in the UK.

You’ve not thought that one through.

Enlighten me then.

He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened.

Wan that’s right, Scots that can afford private treatment in the UK will still be able to jump the queue. Scots that can’t afford private treatment will not be able to and will miss out on the specialist treatment that is only available in the UK.

Care to name a treatment that is only available in the non-Scottish part of the UK and nowhere else on the planet?

The difference is that those treatments are currently available to all Scots free of charge. It won’t be the case after independence.

Free at the point of use you mean and Scotland NHS will still be paying – assuming what ben said was true [ I dont know if this is true but I know is is funded separately]

has the Herald got an early copy of the analysis?

Their plan is to just make statements and then call anyone who asks for an explanation a troll 😉

The difference is that those treatments are currently available to all Scots free of charge. It won’t be the case after independence.

You clearly have no idea how the NHS is funded, so it’s probably best not to engage you in debate in the subject.

Nobody said this is a debate Wan. If you know something I don’t on the subject please share it with me. My understanding is that if Scotland becomes independent then Scots will no longer have free access to specialist NHS services in the UK.

Your understanding is incorrect.

The NHS is free at the point of use. This is not the same as saying it is free. The NHS is not free.

Lets take an example from the current set up. NHS Scotland pays for a block of heart, heart/lung and lung transplants at the Newcastle Freeman Hospital, why would that change after independence? Republic of Ireland, Russia and several other countries have similar agreements. Would those departments remain open if they did not have the increased demand for operations from outwith England? Possibly not.

NHS Scotland also pays for patients to go abroad for Proton Beam Therapy. So there is already a clear pathway in place for people to get treatment outside of Scotland and indeed the UK and have it paid for by NHS Scotland.

The other side of this is that in 2011 although there were 7500 patient referrals to services in England by NHS Scotland there were over 5200 referrals by NHS England to services in Scotland. Why would independence change that or make life worse/harder for patients.

In my experience of tertiary care units you cant tell who is a private or NHS patient as they use the same facilities, same doctors and same AHPs and nurses.

The claim* is currently NHS scotland pays for it- ie the treatment if a scottish national elsewhere in the NHS
So it depends how you look the scottish person gets it for free but scotland pays for it

*I do not know if this claim is true

Why would independence change that or make life worse/harder for patients.
Independence would change that or is healthcare being added to the long list of things that we will be sharing? Next you will be arguing that the NHS is an asset. What part of independence and standing on your own two feet do Nats not get? I think we will mark this one down as a win for the better together campaign.

Scotland is considering becoming independent, not turning into a North Korea of the West.

Can you explain how independence would change the “that” you refer to above?

is healthcare being added to the long list of things that we will be sharing?

At present, NHS Scotland pays for patients to use facilities south of the border. After independence, NHS Scotland will pay for patients to use facilities south of the border. Can you explain why this will change?

Independent means going it alone, if Scotland goes it alone then I wish all Scots good luck. The UK does not have any reciprocal healthcare agreements with other foreign countries so there is no reason why we should have one with an iScotland.

Oh and I was referring to the “that” in your original comment. 🙂

NHS England doesn’t have reciprocal agreements with NHS Scotland at the moment – not in the way you seem to think. NHS England (and NHS Scotland) take patients from other countries, and charge to treat them. It’s not free.

Ben you seem to be making a habit out of being wrong.
Link
I now expect you to change the subject rather than admit you are wrong and that the argument for independence has been weakened, this is what you usually do anyway. 😉

Your link says “NSD funds services provided in England”. Did you actually read your link?

The UK does not have any reciprocal healthcare agreements with other foreign countries so there is no reason why we should have one with an iScotland.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/NonEEAcountries/Pages/Non-EEAcountries.aspx

And also all states within the European Economic Area.

Are you trolling?

Exactly – it’s not a free “you fix ours and we’ll fix yours” deal, it’s a service agreement where NHS Scotland pays for services provided by NHS England.

Now after independence it’s theoretically possible that NHS England could decide they don’t want our money any more – but since that might well lead to closing the services they’d be crazy to do so.

Ben you seemed to have missed “a contribution to the NHS England for Scottish access to highly specialist services which are provided on a UK basis“. An independent Scotland will no longer be in the UK so there will be no service agreement for treatment.

Wan, the non-EEA countries provide “urgent or immediate medical treatment” and not access to specialist services. You really should read what you post as evidence.

I think we will mark this one down as a win for the better together campaign.

In that case its not a win for the rUK education system 😕

The UK does not have any reciprocal healthcare agreements with other foreign countries so there is no reason why we should have one with an iScotland.

That was an even worse indictment of it and as shown is just factually incorrect
And then your link says

NDS* [ funds]a contribution to the NHS England for Scottish access to highly specialist services which are provided on a UK basis. Access is ensured through a service agreement.

Even your own link proves what they have said

Face palm

* Scotland health commissioner

So you think NHS England would either close these specialist services or find all the missing funding, rather than continuing to get funding from NHS Scotland?

You been on the sauce today?

An independent Scotland will no longer be in the UK so there will be no service agreement for treatment.

Erm, have a wee think about that sentence up there. Particularly the Scotland will no longer be in the United Kingdom part of it.

Wan, the non-EEA countries provide “urgent or immediate medical treatment” and not access to specialist services. You really should read what you post as evidence.

Typical of the “Please Gonnae No Leave Us Or We’re Screwed” (TM) side of the debate. Trying to reframe the debate every time they are proven to be spouting nonsense.

The problem is if Scotland does not fund them then they NHS england has a budget short fall and issues with economies of scale , it is more expensive for rUK to provide less and they have to lose staff /beds/provision as well.

I suppose they could bite of their nose to spite their face but they have nothing to gain as it costs them money to do this and they lose staff

We would not have to lose staff due to already existing shortages in staff. Link, if anything less patients from Scotland will be better for the UK. Are you saying the the UK is too wee and too poor to go it alone without Scotland?
The truth is that an iScotland will not be guaranteed the same level of access to healthcare that it currently gets as being part of the UK.

I suppose they could bite of their nose to spite their face but they have nothing to gain as it costs them money to do this and they lose staff

So, very similar to the “No To A Currency Union” standpoint that The Three Amigos are taking: “I suppose they could bite of their nose to spite their face but they have nothing to gain as it costs them money to do this and they lose stuff…”

The truth is that an iScotland will not be guaranteed the same level of access to healthcare that it currently gets as being part of the UK.

The same could be said of the rUK, given that the whole provisions of services thing is a two way street. The latest year that I could get figures for said that NHS Scotland spending on services provided by NHS England was 2008/9 and which claimed that the figure was around £8m for that year. Given that NHS Scotland has a budget of ~£12Bn, it’s a mere inconsequential drop in the ocean and not something that I’ll be worrying about should NHS Scotland have to pay private rates for those services (which it wouldn’t given that it’s not a single patient)

We would not have to lose staff due to already existing shortages in staff.

The staff shortages are mainly due to insufficient funding. Do you propose that the current staff in those specialist units take a pay cut – given that there would be a further reduction in funding following the withdrawal of Scottish funding input and staff don’t work for free.

Are you saying the the UK is too wee and too poor to go it alone without Scotland?

I meant what i said. It is your problem if you cannot do anything beyond create a straw man with it. I never said that

Thanks for a link unrelated to the topic in discussion – unless of course you wish to claim they are all rushing south to use the A & E departments or seek treatment in the hospitals that are [ and I quote] the centre of patient-care scandals.

They go south for specialist provision at say GOSH or other national centres of excellence.

If scotland does not pay for this then GOSH has less money coming in
therefore rUK/ GOSH has to do one of two things
1. Pay more money to keep the current provision- COSTS
2. Reduce numbers of staff but incur economies of scale costs – ie the hospital still has to be heated so it will have to either pay more than it does currently or reduce provision for rUK residents

I cannot really simplify it further as it is not really that complicated and both points are facts rather than opinion

If rUK choses to do this it costs rUK money as well as affecting iS – will they ? I do not know neither do you but it does not make any sense for either rUK or iS

]The truth is that an iScotland will not be guaranteed the same level of access to healthcare that it currently gets as being part of the UK.

you clearly mean in your opinion rather than it being a truth- it may happen it may not but as explained if it does the decision costs rUK money.

Wan the currency union makes a lot of sense to an iScotland and none to the UK.

Junkyard. If scotland does not pay for this then GOSH has less money coming in therefore rUK/ GOSH has to do one of two things
Completely missing out the fact that it could go to NHS England for more money. As Wan stated it is not that many patients anyway. Good luck to building your own centres of Excellence.

I’d have thought there would still be trade in healthcare across the border, in much the same way there will be trade in all sorts of other things.

Completely missing out the fact that it could go to NHS England for more money.

😆 Good luck with that one.

Junkyard. If scotland does not pay for this then GOSH has less money coming in therefore rUK/ GOSH has to do one of two things
Completely missing out the fact that it could go to NHS England for more money. As Wan stated it is not that many patients anyway. Good luck to building your own centres of Excellence.

What you mean it would cost more? Shit i really wish i had thought of that one
FACE PALM
I still do not live in England – how many times do i need to say that one for you to get then?

Junkyard the NHS in the UK will not collapse without Scottish patients. The figures that Wan uses above show it to be £8 million in one year. That is peanuts for the NHS. You can repeat your mantra that the UK is too poor to live without Scotland as much as you want, I won’t be believing you any time soon. You need to get your head around the fact that independence will mean additional costs for iScotland and the UK.

I have no problem with paying more to live in an independent Scotland. I’d happily pay a few % more in taxes to ensure that my country was run better.

Junkyard the NHS in the UK will not collapse without Scottish patients.

Who has claimed it would?

The figures that Wan uses above show it to be £8 million in one year. That is peanuts for the NHS.

Its not a great deal but it is a costs if rUK has to pay it rather than iS though. Have you realised this is a cost yet? Have i said it often enough for you to grasp?

You can repeat your mantra that the UK is too poor to live without Scotland as much as you want,

Straw man I never said that again who would claim that for either state?
Bizarre “debating” style to put it mildly

Junkyard the NHS in the UK will not collapse without Scottish patients.

Who has claimed it would?
Wouldn’t that be you with the statement below?

The problem is if Scotland does not fund them then they NHS england has a budget short fall and issues with economies of scale , it is more expensive for rUK to provide less and they have to lose staff /beds/provision as well.

I think you’re confusing “collapse” with “costing more money”.