"Muslim" terrorists attack French magazine in Paris

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit. Europe wide at least.

I have much, so much more to add but I’m so saddened by today’s massacre, I’ll refrain.

Rivers of blood….

Outright racism seems to be generally much more acceptable in society these days. All those who claim political correctness has gone mad ought to be pleased.

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit.

This kind of reasoned and rational analysis is exactly what’s needed right now.

The increase of bare faced racism from seemingly intelligent forum contributors over the last 5 years is really **** depressing

+1

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit. Europe wide at least.

I have much, so much more to add but I’m so saddened by today’s massacre, I’ll refrain.

Rivers of blood….

And quite a lot by those not quite so intelligent as well.

What a depressing mess. ‘Sharpening contradictions…’?

I know this – I really, really hate that certain (many) people choose their ‘facts’ based simply upon their existing prejudices and resultant political affiliations. At times such as these there I’m reminded of a saying. (This may be paraphrased) – ‘Lies half way around the World before the truth got its boots on’

squirrelking – Member

Ahhh … just had my fish & chips for dinner so now back to answer someone who is wrong on the interweb … 😆

The parallel was between the posters views and those of Farage.

I focused on the AK47 shooters only so how the connection to Farage I don’t know and for you to simply refer to posters then you lost me there.

Farage has nothing really to do with it, I only included him for the above reason. Could you explain the twisted logic or is it just because you clearly don’t understand what I was saying?

The twisted logic here is to post a British politician and his wife, implying he might flare up all hatred even more etc, in relation to AK47 shooters is simply illogical in trying to score points. Completely abstract.

In my opinion, yes.

Spineless, herd mentality, bureaucrats, hypocrite = zombie maggots. Yes?

French AK47 shooters = muslamic related. Yes?

“your worrying gun fetish” = A person needs hobby(s) mine is weapon like gun. Yes?

Which of the above do you think I should change to accommodate you?
Explain yourself. 🙄

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pk7BS9XC10QC&pg=PT38&lpg=PT38&dq=justification+muslim+conquests&source=bl&ots=M7n9yzBMNX&sig=C_GdIDbyqRru_vn-JjuNn0DnTSA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x8GtVLf-L4WzUYXpgrgD&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgK

So are all of these quotes racist and taken out of context then? Was Hitchens a racist? Are some of you going to carry on thinking that the Koran was nothing more than a political tool designed to spread Arab political influence? That it doesn’t justify conquest and oppression?

Reports now that one suspect has been killed and the other two captured.

I focused on the AK47 shooters only so how the connection to Farage I don’t know

pretty sure squirrel was comparing farage to hora, not you.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Was Hitchens a racist?

Racism isn’t the only way to explain his slant. Was the author of “God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything” perhaps anti-religion, do you think? 😆

the most intelligent analysis i’ve seen about the whole subject. worth reading for the hand wringers particularly[/url]

Especially “10 truths that should be self-evident”

I’d agree with you Northwind but based on his speeches he seemed especially anti-islamic.

Please keep in mind that I still haven’t really formed an opinion on this topic/thread yet NW and before anyone gets nasty I’d add that I respect your opinion.

Are some of you going to carry on thinking that the Koran was nothing more than a political tool designed to spread Arab political influence?

its another cleverly written/edited religious guidebook that can be used to condone your actions (and two at odd groups can both simultaneously use the same book to justify their actions) Its a load of cobblers same as the others. We do seem to be getting into quite a unilateral Islam bashing tizzy*. Like I said slate all religions if you want (I’ll happily join you on another thread)
Currently fundamentalist islamists/Muslims are having a successful recruitment drive but presumably when that loses its appeal for the disenfranchised who sign up for this shit some other justification/rally call will be used.
*anyone who fancies terrorist bashing tizzy, go for it.

Being anti-religon isn’t racist – the clue is in the word raceist. People confuse race and religion (often deliberately) – criticising religion is fair game, and even vital, criticising race is not.

lame pedantic argument trotted out over and over again Bencooper..

the anti islamic sentiments are uncalled for and disgusting

It’s pedantic to point out the distinction between race and religion?

So Monty Python was uncalled for?

Religion needs to be criticized, as that spectator article points out…..it just so happens that Islam appears to be the most oppressive religion currently.

in this case yes ben

Tom_W1987 – Member

I’d agree with you Northwind but based on his speeches he seemed especially anti-islamic.

The catholic church thought he was mostly anti-catholic, and the jews thought he was mostly antisemitic. Which is most unlike them 😆 But he described islam, christianity and judaism as the “axis of evil” and said all religious belief was sinister and childish. He hated islam, just not islam in particular, which I reckon is different but still makes him just as unreliable

binners – Member

the most intelligent analysis i’ve seen about the whole subject. worth reading for the hand wringers particularly

In our time, the most oppressive religious movements are variants on radical Islam. That may change. You only have to look at Hindu fundamentalism in India or anti-Muslim Buddhist fundamentalism in Burma to see how. But for the present we must fight the enemies in front of us. What other choice do we have?

You call that intelligent analysis? That is for hand wringers? That is weak. Very weak. No new arguments there I am afraid. Need something strong.

Ya, trying to draw on all others in parallel to AK47 shooters? Hindu and Burmese … 😯 The question is did they ever cross the boarder to the West to spray AK47 projectile? Why not offer asylum to those disenfranchises there? I mean I bet their govt won’t mind. Less mouth to feed etc. EU can feed them if EU wants …

It’s like saying North Korea should be democratic … wtf! N. Korea is self contained and their business are theirs and I don’t want to feed them so why should the “world” keep wanting them to be democratic?

Compare them to AK47 faith?

Ya, no wonder they (author(s) of the article) are screwed. 🙄

Yunki, I’m guessing you’re going to say that criticism of religion is like racism because you are born into both.

That’s akin to saying criticism of communism is racist because there are plenty of brainwashed Chinese, North Koreans and ageing Russians about.

the problem is that many racists – the EDL spring to mind – claim they are only criticising religion and are not racist and its BS
On this thread both legitimate and racist criticism has been made
Both views [ Yunki and Bens] have some merit and one cannot be [ forgive me] black and white about it. It all depends

I don’t think the name you apply is important- whether it’s racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, deiphobia in general, it’s all shitebaggery.

Religious belief goes to the core, it’s very much a part of a person, it’s not a hat you just put on and take off and if you attack a person’s faith, they will see it as an attack on their person. So in that regard, a bit like skin colour. It’s different in that it’s a choice but that doesn’t really matter- it’s not like we think racism is wrong because people have no choice in their race after all.

Tom_W1987 – Member
That’s akin to saying criticism of communism is racist because there are plenty if brainwashed Chinese, North Koreans and ageing Russians about.

Chinese brainwashed? 😯 You have Noooo idea. Good thing the communist oppress or brainwash them otherwise you will have to speak mandarin to earn a living. There is no way you can compete with them and not even the Jews (apparently the cleverest people according to someone …).

There are reasons why these countries are oppressed for good because when open up they will consume the world!

Why on earth do you want to bother them I don’t know … you can observe them or keep an eye on them but to change their thinking? They will beat you at your own game.

😯

Religious belief goes to the core, it’s very much a part of a person, it’s not a hat you just put on and take off and if you attack a person’s faith, they will see it as an attack on their person. So in that regard, a bit like skin colour. It’s different in that it’s a choice but that doesn’t really matter- it’s not like we think racism is wrong because people have no choice in their race after all.

Your skin colour doesn’t oppress people (well, directly), again this is like defending extreme political views because someone had them ingrained in them from an early age.

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground. This is the image that the TV news felt unable to show.

The murder of Pakistani school children has lead to a material change in government policy to terrorism. todays events are similarly significant

jambalaya – Member

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground. This is the image that the TV news felt unable to show.

The murder of Pakistani school children has lead to a material change in government policy to terrorism. todays events are similarly significant

They showed no mercy to the innocents then mercy should not be given to them. Waste of oxygen is a waste.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Your skin colour doesn’t oppress people (well, directly), again this is like defending extreme political views because someone had them ingrained in them from an early age.

Not at all- I’m not defending oppression, or extreme views. I’m saying that when you attack a faith, you can’t be surprised that people of that faith feel attacked. And the constant belittling of faith and lumping in of all people of a religion with extremists does exactly that. Whether that’s “there’s too many muslims in the UK” or “moderate muslims need to act!” or “Islam has been hijacked”, it’s all about pointing a finger at someone for their faith and lumping nearly a quarter of the world’s population in with headbangers who go on a shooting spree. It is all otherness and “us and them” and no good can ever come of it, and lots of bad.

As far as links between racism and islamophobia… Would Barack Obama be accused of being a muslim if he was white? Would my syrian atheist colleague and my indian catholic ex-colleague have been the victim of anti-islamic abuse if they were white? (ironically she put the mental back into fundamentalist, and quite possibly might blow up a mosque or an abortion clinic some time)

So heartening to hear the so called moderate Muslims denounce these extreme Muslims. How about they grow up and denounce the infantile fairy tale completely and create a real us v’s them with the deluded believers and the sane inhabitants of this planet.

As far as links between racism and islamophobia… Would Barack Obama be accused of being a muslim if he was white?

Probably with a name like Barack Hussein Obama which is African with Arabic origins.
What happened in Paris is terrible and seeing everyone on the streets in peaceful vigil for the dead and in support of freedom gives me hope that the evil of the like that was seen in Paris yesterday will never triumph.
Nor will the people who would have us return to the dark ages with their warped religious ideology.

Northwind – Member
Not at all- I’m not defending oppression, or extreme views. I’m saying that when you attack a faith, you can’t be surprised that people of that faith feel attacked. And the constant belittling of faith and lumping in of all people of a religion with extremists does exactly that. Whether that’s “there’s too many muslims in the UK” or “moderate muslims need to act!” or “Islam has been hijacked”, it’s all about pointing a finger at someone for their faith and lumping nearly a quarter of the world’s population in with headbangers who go on a shooting spree. It is all otherness and “us and them” and no good can ever come of it, and lots of bad.

+1

On the flip side, such comments are also an excellent give away as to whether you need to read or listen to such arguments further NW! Saves an awful lot of time.

JCL – Member
So heartening to hear the so called moderate Muslims denounce these extreme Muslims. How about they grow up and denounce the infantile fairy tale completely and create a real us v’s them with the deluded believers and the sane inhabitants of this planet.

What and let the maturity gap get even greater? The old, the religious are insane chestnut!!

The old accusing anyone who criticises religious teaching of saying the religious are insane chestnut.

Read those verses, Northwind, it’s exactly what those killing people whilst shouting out religious messages are doing. A common factor in the religious murders in France recently is that the perpetrators have shouted religious statements as they’ve shot or driven into their victims. Have a look at some of the Islamic site too. They are calling for killing.

It was before the hack, but I was equally critical of Bush and the Blair couple before and during Gulf war two. Jacques Chirac’s book includes details of conversation with Bush in which Bush tried to persuade him to join the war for religious reasons.

It’s the old Christian and Muslim tit for tat. Qui sème la croisade récolte le jihad. Sow the crusade, reap the jihad.

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground.

so instead of leading with a display of solidarity with Charlie hebdo and a display of the little thing that a minority got murderously angered by they lead with the result and help spread the terror a bit further. 🙁

Edukator

Read those verses, Northwind, it’s exactly what those killing people whilst shouting out religious messages are doing. A common factor in the religious murders in France recently is that the perpetrators have shouted religious statements as they’ve shot or driven into their victims. Have a look at some of the Islamic site too. They are calling for killing.

Islamic fundamentalists shout religious statements shocker. It doesn’t matter what the Koran says though, it’s about interpretation. There’s plenty of hatred and incitement in the bible, it’s about the will to distort it’s message to suit your needs.

I don’t know why you are bothering to go after the Koran anyway when you’ve mentioned the real problem in the same post – Sow a crusade, reap the jihad. The harder Britain and the U.S try to bomb civility and western values into the Muslim world the deeper the seeds of hatred will be sown.

D0NK

so instead of leading with a display of solidarity with Charlie hebdo and a display of the little thing that a minority got murderously angered by they lead with the result and help spread the terror a bit further.

If you were the editor of a large news paper and you had the option to do this, potentially putting your life, your families’ lives and potentially the lives of your staff in danger would you?

Indy was the only UK paper that went for it as far as I know.

the rest have been blurring images of the cartoons which rather feels like the killers have won?

You have to hand it to the Germans though;

the Belgians give it some dignity;

and we get pictures of a man about to be murdered. No imagination and no empathy.

Steve Bell does a sterling job, however;

Steve B

bencooper – Member
Reports now that one suspect has been killed and the other two captured

One suspect handed himself in, the other two are brothers – this deduced from the fact one left an ID card in the getaway vehicle. Armed and gormless.

One of the two brothers on the run is reported to have been arresting for plotting terrorism in 2005 and served… 18 months.

You then hear stories from ISIS insiders who say that wholesale incarceration of suspects in Iraq in 2003/4 provided them with the ideal, safe (impossible logistically otherwise) means to plot the formation of ISIS.

My take on what the West is seeing with terrorism is very simple. We’ve tried playing nice and it does not work – the terrorists are laughing at us and gradually eroding our freedoms – it has been failing for some time; Vietnam, Afghanistan (several times for the British), Iraq, Syria, and the terrorism at home. The true definition of madness is repeating tactics and strategy and hoping for different, better results.

digga

We’ve tried playing nice and it does not work – the terrorists are laughing at us and gradually eroding our freedoms – it has been failing for some time; Vietnam, Afghanistan (several times for the British), Iraq, Syria, and the terrorism at home. The true definition of madness is repeating tactics and strategy and hoping for different, better results.

So your tactic would be?

The independent cover is great. Not sure about this though:

You have to hand it to the Germans though;

Obviously no cartoon ever justifies violence but I also don’t see how reproducing racist caricatures of Arabs is helping anyone.

Digga – if your idea of playing nice is invading Muslim countries and killing thousands of innocent people, and kidnapping and torturing suspects, I dread to think what it is you’re suggesting we should be doing instead.

It’s not the terrorists who are eroding our freedoms BTW.

Vietnam??????? WTF

If you were the editor of a large news paper and you had the option to do this

obviously its a tricky one to answer comeback and ask when I am. I like to think I would. The angry men with guns want the world s media to stop poking fun at them and show how badass they are instead and the UK press capitulate. Even if they didn’t want to go down the German route they could have done the Belgian one (from waswas’ post)

And tbh, having thought about it more, the Indy one is probably best, giving the finger to the terrorists while not giving moderates the opportunity to get sidetracked, keep everyone’s mind on being pissed at the terrorists.

Obviously no cartoon ever justifies violence but I also don’t see how reproducing racist caricatures of Arabs is helping anyone.

+1

It’s not the terrorists who are eroding our freedoms BTW.

+1