jimjam – Member
So your tactic would be?

Not to arrest and detain in the first place, but rather to disappear them as quietly as possible.

It is not nice, but if we are being pragmatic and want to live in a world where we can all, irrespective of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, go about our lives without the need to be armed (a frightening though, not least because of many people’s ineptitude with vehicles which ‘only’ travel at tens of miles per hour) or worried about random attacks, someone has to do the wet work on our behalf.

Pigface – Member
Vietnam??????? WTF

The west tried to fight a conventional armed forces war against an opposition that was more than prepared to use guerilla tactics and failed. There is no WTF about it.

My initial reaction was to post the Danish cartoons on my Facebook but it occoured to me that to do so would be to insult many including friends as a blow against a small group of random nutters who claim to share their faith but who ironically enough believe their God and his religion are two weak to shrug off a few line drawings.
htatp://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/special-coverage/481653-paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html
The Sun is already milking this for further erosion of our freedoms.

Obviously no cartoon ever justifies violence but I also don’t see how reproducing racist caricatures of Arabs is helping anyone.

Today, it’s saying to anyone who thinks that murder will prevent publication that it won’t work, that in fact the information and images that they were trying to suppress will just be more widely viewed.

Tomorrow, you’re probably right.

Brilliant from Steve Bell! As ever!

I’d imagine he was motivated by the uncomfortable looking experience of having to sit next to the former leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (the supposed ‘moderate’ Muslims we keep hearing so much about) on Newsnight last night. Whose weasely, half-arsed condemnation went along the lines of ‘we condemn violence, but…..”

…..then went on to basically say, in not so many words, that if you insult Islam then you deserve everything you get, and this is what you can expect.

So not really a condemnation at all then? Hurray for the ‘moderates’ eh? 🙄

Not to arrest and detain in the first place, but rather to disappear them as quietly as possible.
It is not nice, but if we are being pragmatic and want to live in a world where we can all, irrespective of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, go about our lives

I want to live in a world where people aren’t “disappeared” without trial.

Hurray for the ‘moderates’ eh?

Nah, it’s “Hurray for people who need feeble excuses to rant and make crass generalisations on internet forums.”

Not to arrest and detain in the first place, but rather to disappear them as quietly as possible.

Ah the Jean Charles de Menezes approach

Digga what you are suggesting is truly terrifying. What we need to fight fascism is to be more fascist? How many innocent people would it be ok to kill to carry out your ‘wet work’. You sick ****.

It’s pretty obvious that this kind of moronic reaction is exactly what the terrorists want too.

It’s going to take a long ol’ time to disappear all these guys. I hope we’re prepared for the non-linear nature of another “war” for another generation.

binners – Member
So not really a condemnation at all then? Hurray for the ‘moderates’ eh?

It does not present much of a rebuttal to those who believe that the extremists Muslims want to kill us all and the moderates want them to.

Not a view I personally subscribe to – I believe the reality is vastly more complex – but nonetheless, there can be no two ways; people either live in the West by our laws, or otherwise leave or stay and should be made to face the consequences of their words and actions.

digga

Not to arrest and detain in the first place, but rather to disappear them as quietly as possible.

It is not nice, but if we are being pragmatic and want to live in a world where we can all, irrespective of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, go about our lives without the need to be armed (a frightening though, not least because of many people’s ineptitude with vehicles which ‘only’ travel at tens of miles per hour) or worried about random attacks, someone has to do the wet work on our behalf.

That’s retarded I’m afraid. When you “disappear” them all, what do you think their friends, their families, their communities will do?

grum – Member
Digga what you are suggesting is truly terrifying. What we need to fight fascism is to be more fascist? How many innocent people would it be ok to kill to carry out your ‘wet work’. You sick ****.

It’s pretty obvious that this kind of moronic reaction is exactly what the terrorists want tooRead up on the formation of ISIS. Then also read up on the intelligence infiltration and operations against the IRA – a key factor in their decision to declare peace.

The world is not all nice, woolly and co-operative. I hope none of us ever has to experience what those victims in Paris yesterday went through, but it is fairly clear that current means are ineffective in preventing a tiny minority of lunatics from oppressing the peaceful majority.

…..then went on to basically say, in not so many words,

So he didn’t actually say it then, and you’re putting words into his mouth.

people either live in the West by our laws

Yeah, damn right. And if they don’t, we’ll go to their countries and kill ’em all…when the chips are down, we don’t care about no laws.

jimjam – Member

That’s retarded I’m afraid. When you “disappear” them all, what do you think their friends, their families, their communities will do?Same as usual. they would not know who, where, how why. Calling cards won’t be left.

Anyone would think there are millions of extremists (if this is the case, then surely even more drastic action is required?) but in fact there are relatively few.

Do you think we can reason with and rehabilitate them? Has this worked so far?

a key factor in their decision to declare peace.

😆

Yeah, we beat ’em…we beat ’em good man. Stupid RaRas…we didn’t have to concede no political ground or accept that nearly half the population of a country might actually be needing a bit of determination in how it’s run. We even let another country have a say FFS. Yeah man. We beat them proper good. We was awesomez.

To correct my bad link above
http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/special-coverage/481653-paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html

people either live in the West by our laws

Our laws, like not torturing people and executing those suspected of crimes. You’re an idiot, frankly – but a scary idiot.

Do you think we can reason with and rehabilitate them?

We can try, but we’ll have to start a little closer to home.

Has this worked so far?

No, I don’t think so. We skipped the reasoning bit.

Fighting terror with terror (and that is what “disappearances” are) makes us worse than them.

So he didn’t actually say it then, and you’re putting words into his mouth.

Watch it yourself. Its on BBC iplayer. Here you go. I just summarised. There were more words involved, but thats what he was saying.

It was like when that expenses fraud Tory MP did her famous 6 second non-apology in parliament last year. Where she had to apologise, but actually didn’t.

It was literally’ I know I have to condemn violence, so I will go through the motions of that……’, but then couldn’t help himself, and went on with a thinly veiled justification for it all. Like I said, to summarise…. that if you insult Islam, then this is what happens. So if you don’t want this type of thing to happen, then don’t insult Islam

And this is the ‘moderate’ view, is it?

As condemnation goes, it wasn’t one.

As a defence of freedom of speech, It most definitely wasn’t one.

Feel free to keep wringing your hands though…..

bencooper – Member
Fighting terror with terror (and that is what “disappearances” are) makes us worse than them.

So you are happy to continue to allow these radicals the freedom to run around killing and wounding innocent people? FYI another shooting in Paris now this morning.

grum – Member
Our laws, like not torturing people and executing those suspected of crimes. You’re an idiot, frankly – but a scary idiot.

That you don’t agree with me does not bother me and I am happy to debate, but turning your disagreement into an ad hominem attack is puerile. Try better or, perhaps make a constructive suggestion as to the way forward you see fit.

Feel free to keep wringing your hands though…..

Feel free to keep ranting.

Have you recommended the nuclear option yet?

Its hardly ranting, is it Bravissimo? I’m merely pointing out that this self-proclaimed, supposed ‘moderate’ viewpoint didn’t look like any definition of ‘moderate’ that I’d recognise.

Because it basically ended up justifying violence in circumstances deemed to be offensive to one particular group of peoples beliefs, by those people. Theres a word for that. Its fascism.

Unless you can point out to me where the exception clause is in our constitution that only applies to that one group of people, who, in certain circumstances, are now entirely justified in killing people

digga

Read up on the formation of ISIS. Then also read up on the intelligence infiltration and operations against the IRA – a key factor in their decision to declare peace.

Please, do educate us on how covert operations and shoot to kill policies by the SAS and security forces defeated the IRA. While you’re at it could you balance or weigh up the success of these operations and the handful IRA volunteers killed vs the massive propaganda coup and recruitment drive it gave the IRA. Trying to defeat terrorists with terror tactics just doesn’t work I’m afraid, you just do the recruiters work for them, and you radicalise otherwise moderate people.

digga
Same as usual. they would not know who, where, how why. Calling cards won’t be left.

You sound like a 15 year old who’s read too many Andy McNabb books. Wet work your arse. “They would not know” but some tosser on the internet knows all about it. You are deluded or trolling. Which is it.

Good straw man – no, I don’t think terrorists should be free to run around killing innocent people. But I don’t think “disappearing” people is the way to solve the problem.

And stop using that euphemism – you’re talking about kidnapping a person, executing them and burying them in an unmarked grave without trial.

Who decides who gets disappeared? Do you completely trust the government and security services to make these kinds of decisions?

You are deluded or trolling. Which is it.

Tbh, I assumed trolling, But then he got a bit upset with grum…so maybe deluded. 😯

bencooper – Member
Who decides who gets disappeared? Do you completely trust the government and security services to make these kinds of decisions?

No, of course not. That is like saying do I trust democracy; no but it is the best of the alternatives available.

I repeatedly asked what other people suggest might be the solution, how we can weed out (or at least weaken) the terrorist minority from the midst of western society and no one has provided a single solitary suggestion. Just criticism of my own opinion.

Failing to act now essentially condemns many more innocents to become collateral damage of a failed strategy.

That you don’t agree with me does not bother me and I am happy to debate, but turning your disagreement into an ad hominem attack is puerile. Try better or, perhaps make a constructive suggestion as to the way forward you see fit.

I’ve already dealt with the gaping logical and moral fallacies in your arguments – so I think I’m free to give my opinion too.

The way forward I would see is to broadly carry on as are, but put an end to illegal wars in Muslim countries, kidnapping and torture of suspects, and put pressure on to create a fair and workable solution for Israel and Palestine. I suspect we’d see a huge decline in support for Islamic terrorism.

Perhaps also international sanctions against Saudi Arabia, who are the main funders/promoters of worldwide terrorism. Except they are such wonderful customers of our weapons so it’s pretty unlikely.

Tragic as these events are, the vast majority of people in the west are almost entirely unaffected by terrorism (unlike those in some of the countries we’ve invaded/made worse) so why do some think we need a step change in how we deal with it? Sadly there will always be some nutters who manage to achieve their aims. As I already posted many of the terrorist attacks in the US have been carried out by white supremacists/right wing nutters. I don’t recall anyone suggesting executing them en masse.

So a society where anyone can be “disappeared” by the security services is better than a society where random nutcases can occasionally kill people?

Actually, we’d just end up with both.

@Grum – Or we could just stop buying their oil until they helped bring around radical changes in Middle Eastern society, at which point we would be happy to trade with them again.

s I already posted many of the terrorist attacks in the US have been carried out by white supremacists/right wing nutters. I don’t recall anyone suggesting executing them en masse

Not forgetting Breivik.

Binners – whereabouts roughly in Newsnight is the bit you’re on about? ‘Hand-wringing’ is a bit of a meaningless insult usually thrown around when people don’t really have an argument BTW.

FWIW I’m fully in favour of freedom of speech with no exceptions and no cartoon could ever justify violence – I still don’t think racist cartoons are cool though. Freedom of speech does include the freedom to be a dick but just because you can….

Disappearing people? Murder squads? Argentine Junta anyone? Be very careful what you wish for people. Once you go down this road there’s no turning back.

@grum
Agree with most of what you said there. The tactics and strategies deployed by ‘us’, the West have been poor, wrong (IMHO illegal on many counts) and a highly effective tool for extremist recruiters.

As I’ve already said, the mass detention tactic was a failure of epic proportions – to which the rise of ISIS is attributable.

I think we need to be careful about offering potential ‘excuses’ for extremism, although again agree that situations such as Palestine are hugely unhelpful.

The tricky bit though, is how do we deal with the extremists in situ? The ones who are here, very often born here, who hold the radical, terrorist views on which they wish to act? I really don’t see any effective means – that the timeframe of outcomes from the above changes in foreign policy would be sufficiently rapid to prevent many hundreds more deaths from random attacks.

Freedom of speech does include the freedom to be a dick but just because you can….

Thats exactly what it means. As this forum is ample testament too 😉

There are no exceptions. Its all or nothing. And when one group tries, by use of violence, to insert an exception, for their benefit, then they need to be told in no uncertain terms to do one!

The tricky bit though, is how do we deal with the extremists in situ? The ones who are here, very often born here, who hold the radical, terrorist views on which they wish to act?

So your solution for these disaffected young men isn’t to wonder why they’ve got teh views they do, and try to counter that kind of extremism, your solution is to take them away from their families and execute them?

How does that prevent the next generation of young men growing up feeling they aren’t connected to society?

Do you only target brown people who download dodgy videos from the internet, or do you also execute white people who say something a bit racist on Facebook?

digga

As I’ve already said, the mass detention tactic was a failure of epic proportions – to which the rise of ISIS is attributable.

No. The illegal invasion of Iraq, based on lies an misinformation is the event to which the rise of ISIS is attributable. Long before “Operation Iraqi Freedom” Commentators and critics of the war had predicted that the removal of Saddam, the destruction of the country’s infrastructure, the slaughter of it’s citizens and the inevitable withdrawal by British and American forces would have a destabilizing effect on the country and the middle east, and would create opportunities for groups such as ISIS to flourish. How could they possibly have known 🙄

Guy on the BBC news right now making some good points about what he termed ‘medieval blasphemy taboos’ being discussed and modified to suit modern times, claiming Muslims need to accept that folk will poke fun at religions the world over, just as they themselves make fun of other religions.

His first point is the way forward for change and I actually believe it will be the way it all pans out. How long it takes is anyone’s guess…