Labour Party problems

that couldn’t be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn’t around then, but if it were being done now and I didn’t agree with it then I don’t see the problem with me making it

You are, for the same reason you’d be called an islamophobe for asking all Muslims to speak out on terrorism.

that couldn’t be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn’t around then

Again, the actions of the current Israeli government could only be interpreted as being done in the name of all Jews if you’re thick and/or prejudiced. They are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than you are for the actions of your forefathers.

Incidentally, you still benefit from all the wealth your ancestors pillaged from the east. Maybe you should give it back and apologise for handling stolen goods.

Again, the actions of the current Israeli government could only be interpreted as being done in the name of all Jews if you’re thick and/or prejudiced.

This is a totally valid comment…

However, the problem here is we’re not talking solely in terms of anti-semitism, but in terms of it’s apparent hold of the Labour Party; to do that without taking into account the very real influence of Israel in dark political manipulation behind the scenes is deceptive.

Do you think it’s in your best interests to call us all Tories

And who has done that? As for not being able to vote labour because you don’t like the leader, that’s a daft position. You vote for the polilcies and the party which best represents your interests and beliefs. I voted labour in 2005 even though I though Tony Blair was a war criminal and had no problems doing so, because it’s about more than personalities or individuals.

And this centrism thing. Again, as a centrist which policies do you disagree with? If you take out the personalities what is it about labour’s policies and values which you couldn’t vote for?

Oh yeah… I’d almost forgotten that the Jews run everything behind the scenes. And that Mossad are normally behind anything dodgy going on in the world

Those bastards are setting Jezza up aren’t they, as they fear the upcoming socialist revolution?

It all makes perfect sense now….

Damn, next you’ll be asking for evidence for such outlandish claims…

As for not being able to vote labour because you don’t like the leader, that’s a daft position. You vote for the polilcies and the party which best represents your interests and beliefs.

How about expecting a basic level of competency? I broadly agree with most labour policy (such as it is), but I wouldn’t trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country’s economy.

I also look at him and his ilk and always get the feeling (because of how they conduct themselves now) that if they did get any power, they’d get very very authoritarian very very quickly (loyalty pledges anyone?), and that policies that don’t appear that radical would soon get ratcheted up to be so

Maybe thats just me, but I doubt it

When asked in polls ‘who do you trust to…..?’ folowed by pretty much any question Mays Tory party scores way above labour.

That fact in itself should have the lot of them resigning out of pure unadulterated shame.

Take a look at the state this country is in. How is that even possible?!! Its dereliction of duty on an epic scale. Their failure to offer an electable alternative to this utter shitshow is the most damning indictment that anyone could deliver. Complete and utter failure

And they look like they don’t even care!!!

but I wouldn’t trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country’s economy.

But what choice do you have? Even if you despise Corbyn for whatever reason, you still should vote labour if you agree with the policies, because if you don’t, the only alternative is continued tory austerity and all the things that come with it.

Labour MPs have a simple choice, work with the leadership and members and do everything possible to ensure a labour govt, or don’t and ensure a tory govt. They don’t have to pledge loyalty to Corbyn or whoever else, they don’t have to like him, and they don’t have to share a platform with him. All they have to do is promote the policies and not give anyone any reason to vote against them. And that goes for the likes of Chris Williamson et al too who are being equally damaging with their idiotic rants about anti-semitism.

Policies versus personality is an interesting concept. There is no way I could ever vote for the Tories but could I vote Labour. Not at the moment, no, even though I like the majority of their policies. I just have no faith in the abilities or intelligence of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, Dianne Abbott and Barry Gardiner to actually deliver.

You want the moderate MPs to ‘work with the leadership and the members’ (which in itself sounds a bit Stalinist) for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?

If you were working for a company where they got a new boss in who was clearly mental, and started instigating policies that were sure to bankrupt the business, would you ‘work with the leadership and the members’ or look for another job and get the **** out of there?

I’ve said before, if it wasn’t for the Brexit vortex we’re all stuck in, I think the labour party would be no more. The vast majority of its MPs would have gone over to TIG and start to build a credible, electable, centrist party, leaving the completely unelectable lefties to gallop off to Far Left irrelevance, taking the 6th formers with them

The bottom line is Jeremy Corbyn will never leave of his own volition, until death, and while he’s there the labour party is electorally ****ed!

As soon as we reach any kind of resolution of Brexit, if we ever do, that day marks the end of the labour party in its present incarnation. I doubt its got more than a few months left in it anyway, to be honest. And whatever shape it takes next, it won’t be Corbynite. That will be viewed for what it is/was. A misguided, accidental trip down memory lane to a 1970’s political dead end

Daz – much as I love you, and appreciate the time you’ve spent at the top of hills waiting for me t catch up, your attitude on this particular subject is absolutely bonkers. But having said that, its totally in tune with ‘the leadership/politburo’ 😉

You are, for the same reason you’d be called an islamophobe for asking all Muslims to speak out on terrorism.

only to a snowflake – the concepts are the same – one group pointing out to another group, with clearly limited mental faculties, that they are mistakenly failing to distinguish between two groups of people – religion has bugger all to do with it.

You want the moderate MPs to ‘work with the leadership and the members’ (which in itself sounds a bit Stalinist) for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?

Absolutely. Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him. It’s not Stalinist, it’s democracy. They don’t have to bend the knee to him, they just need to promote the party’s policies and not slag him off in public. I don’t see why that is so difficult.

your attitude on this particular subject is absolutely bonkers

My attitude to politics is driven by one simple principle: Anyone but the tories. I don’t see what is bonkers about that. Corbyn won’t be around forever, and what he’ll leave behind is a set of policies which I think all labour minded people can agree on, along with a more democratic party with the largest activist base in Europe.

Actually there’s another argument here that I can’t be arsed going into in much detail but the gist of it is that Corbyn is a direct result of the failure of the managerialist centrist politics of Blair, Brown and Miliband, so if we’re really looking for reasons why the labour party is in the state it’s in we may want to go back to them and ask whether they should repeat the same mistakes?

I broadly agree with most labour policy (such as it is), but I wouldn’t trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country’s economy.

You realise they don’t really do that don’t you? People that know what they are doing do the actual work and implementation. Labour’s policies are currently great and I would vote for any leader with those policies within their manifesto.
I don’t mind Corbyn and like McDonnell but I have said many times I think Corbyn should have gone a while ago as he is limiting chances of election.

I think Corbyn should have gone a while ago as he is limiting chances of election

The problem with with that is who to replace him? The irony is that in the current climate there’s no way he’s going to stand aside as it will be seen as giving credence to those who are disgracefully calling him a racist.

Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him. It’s not Stalinist, it’s democracy.

Is that how Jeremy performed when just a humble MP? Did he tow the party line at all times?

Maybe thats just me, but I doubt it

No as normal you are repeating the insinuations from some of the “moderates” and also the hard right and seemingly thinking you have arrived at it by yourself. I am curious how you square his plans for authoritarianism with the fact quite a few of his rebel votes were against new labours love of setting up the framework for authoritarianism.

Also

loyalty pledges anyone?

Seriously?
Remember you made a fool of yourself last time bringing this up. Are you hoping everyone has forgotten?
It had **** all to do with Corbyn. In both the being behind it sense and that the pledge was to the party not him.
Time for another picture?

for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?

Do we know that? Remember the last election was launched because we were all told he was so utterly unelectable the tories would have the greatest landslide ever?
Wonder what would have happened if instead of continuing to rant and rave about how unelectable he is people decided to try and work with him and instead of repeating whatever moronic misrepresentation of what he said was provided by the ERG and friends they actually challenged it?

The problem with with that is who to replace him? The irony is that in the current climate there’s no way he’s going to stand aside as it will be seen as giving credence to those who are disgracefully calling him a racist.

McDonnell seems like he would miles better as a politican, way way sharper than JC, but he has spoken about having had quite a serious heart attack a few years ago, and expecting his career to be winding down, so perhaps he is putting his health first. I mean he is a busy man and all, but the treatment Corbyn gets is just a different level – Tabloid press crawling up his ringpiece 24/7. Don’t find much to praise JC about, but he’s surprisingly tough for a bloke who’s never had to make a decision for 40 years. To go from relative backbench obscurity to that could decimate your mental health tbh.

Saying that, I reckon McDonnell would get eviscerated at the ballot box (and is probably aware of this). Smear tactics backfire with JC because even Daily mail readers can see he’s basically a decent bloke, bit of a cuddly dim lefty with his heart in the right place. McDonnell isn’t cuddly or dim and would seem a threatening prospect to middle England.

Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him.

Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made. That is not democracy at all. You can campaign and push for a different party leader, or different parliamentary candidate, or different party, other than the one which “won” the last vote that was held. I’m sure it will be pretty easy to find an old speech by the current leader of the Labour Party to that effect. He was known to ocassionaly speak out against the democratically elected leader of his party, before he was in that position.

Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made.

True, and I agree. But there’s a massive difference between ‘questioning’ the decision and disagreeing with it, and actively refusing to accept it. From day one Corbyn’s opponents said they would not accept the decision. Some were quoted as saying they do something every day to undermine him. They tried to get him out at the first opportunity, as was their right,  and lost again by an even bigger margin. Again they refused to accept it. When leading moderates were asked if they would join the shadow cabinet, they refused. Even during the election campaign they couldn’t bring themselves to support the policies, and when he did much better than they all said he would, they sniped that he didn’t do well enough, and complained that they were now stuck with him. If it wasn’t for those pesky voters eh? Since then we’ve had prominent figures calling him a racist and anti-semite when this is plainly not the case, and smearing him with all manner of ridiculous accusations.

So yes, I do think the moderates have done huge damage to labour’s election chances, and I have no doubt that was their goal because the only way to get him out is to prove that he is unelectable by being massively defeated in an election. Unfortunately the last election showed otherwise, and the tragedy is that had they spent their energies getting behind the policies and the party, they almost certainly would have won.

Williamson suspended.

Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made.

so how has that worked out for Brexit then ?

I missed out the word “not”, as I’m sure the rest of my post made clear.

difference between ‘questioning’ the decision and disagreeing with it,

No, there isn’t… I think we have the wrong MP here, the wrong PM leading our government, and the wrong policy on Brexit. All three have been voted for, and in all three cases I think, and will say, that I disagree. MPs and party members are free to say what they think about decisions made or espoused by their party, including who leads it. If they want to be in the cabinet or shadow cabinet, then that changes things… but back benchers and party members can, and should, say what they think.

Unfortunately the last election showed otherwise,

The last election wasn’t about policies.

Aaaah yes…. how silly of me. I forgot that if I wasn’t buying into the cult of Corbyn it’s because I’m a capitalist stooge, enslaved by the right wing media, totally incapable of independent thought and a lackey of the military industrial complex

You lot should get yourself a new script 😂

Kevin Barton
Jim Fitzpatrick
Caroline Flint
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer

7 Labour party “problems” right there for you.

Facilitating a hard-right Brexit is the new socialism, comrade

Somehow

No… me neither

The last election wasn’t about policies.

Really? I suppose it was Corbyn’s sparkling personality and charisma that overturned a 20 point poll deficit then?

 I forgot that if I wasn’t buying into the cult of Corbyn, t’s because I’m a capitalist stooge

Binners this is almost beginning to sound a bit paranoid. I know a fair few people in momentum or who are labour activists I can assure you their focus is on the policies and not Corbyn. I don’t know which ones you’ve met but the ones I know couldn’t be further from what you describe.

Really? I suppose it was Corbyn’s sparkling personality and charisma that overturned a 20 point poll deficit then?

Yes, of course it was dazh. It was absolutely Corbyn and his competent leadership team. You keep telling yourself that.

 It was absolutely Corbyn and his competent leadership team. You keep telling yourself that.

You appear to have had a sarcasm bypass I’m afraid. I’m sure you thought this response was quite clever though.

No dazh, I got your sarcasm – I’m not sure you got mine. But I’m sure you thought you were being clever too. Socialism through communal suffering comrade. Onwards we go!

Oh whatever. Seriously, is it completely beyond you lot to have a sensible discussion about politics without repeating tired early 20th century cliches about communists vs capitalists?

If you’re really interested in making a point, perhaps you could explain why the last election wasn’t about policy, and why the Labour Party did much better than anyone predicted?

& why ‘hard left’ Labour did better than the last 2 centrist efforts?

Low on nuance there binbins

Oh you’ve deleted your post. Can we expect a proper response?rather than your normal foaming gammon pub rants

Seriously, is it completely beyond you lot to have a sensible discussion about politics without repeating tired early 20th century cliches about communists vs capitalists?

I dunno dazh, maybe if you could stop bandying about “centrists”, “moderates”, “Blairites” etc as terms of “abuse” (for want of a better word), and tell us why you have reservations about Corbyn? You’ve said you’ve had reservation about him before haven’t you…forgive me if I’m wrong on that one. Also, I believe in your more exasperated moments with the middle class, you’ve professed that you think a bit of suffering might do us all some good; as well, as appeasing the far right who seem to be making you poo your pants quite a bit at the moment. As far as I know, the nearest we’ve had, in a modern developed democracy, to a “swing” left in the face of suffering was Obama being elected post 2008 crisis.

If you’re really interested in making a point, perhaps you could explain why the last election wasn’t about policy, and why the Labour Party did much better than anyone predicted?

I think the last election was about the electorate telling May she could screw her mandate and deluded remainers thinking that Labour was their only hope of overturning the 2016 referendum result.

I’ve previously made this point when you’ve described anyone who criticises Corbyn’s leadership as “the usual anti-labour suspects”: saying that the leadership is not competent and is allowing itself to be ripped to shreds by over-the-top anti-semitism claims, while it leaks MPs is not “anti-labour” . Corbyn, Len and Milne, and some of the other shitbags in there are making Labour an unattractive proposition to the electorate – you can blame the media (strong look always by the way) and disloyal scumbag centrists all you want. Parties do not fall apart under good leadership! (And by “good”, I mean competent, broad-church encompassing etc etc, not just “strong.”) They’ve failed to get their GE and are now supporting an amendment for a People’s Vote which will struggle to pass anyway. So, yeah, they get to see a bit of communal suffering, blame the Tories and hope we all swing to the left. I’m not “anti-Corbyn” – I think he’s a good bloke. I’m certainly anti Milne, Smith and Len – I think their thinking is outdated and in the case of Milne, quite dangerous at times. I’m guilty of being too naive to have seen the “others” who would see a Corbyn leadership as their vehicle. You can say that neo-liberalism has failed all you want, and for the good part of that, I agree, but it doesn’t mean I have to wed myself to the views of a few lefty intellectuals who tell me I must suffer for the common good. The only thing Corbyn’s got left for me is how much he makes right wing nutjobs shit in their pants – but I think it’s too late now – he’s not going to lead the Labour Party to a HoC majority – because the majority of the electorate he needs just won’t listen to him.

Parties do not fall apart under good leadership! (And by “good”, I mean competent, broad-church encompassing etc etc, not just “strong.”

Putting it in bold doesnt make it any more accurate.
A casual example of superb leadership, which resulted in serious party problems, is Robert Peel and the corn laws. Right decision but had the party in serious problems.
Secondly you fail to deal with the minor problem that the “moderates” (note this is term that they rather entertainingly use not an insult) are mostly a legacy of Blair, in his normal authoritarian way, pushed a centrally chosen list of candidates onto the local parties.
Most of them seem utter incapable of compromise which knackers the broad-church model.
Without the ability to do what many leaders coming into an organisation would do, sacking the old management and replacing them with personally loyal, he is kinda stuck.

but it doesn’t mean I have to wed myself to the views of a few lefty intellectuals who tell me I must suffer for the common good

Have you got some evidence of these lefty intellectual types saying just that or is it a special interpretation?

You think at i’m a gammon’?

I’m a fully paid up guardian-reading (has a subscription for the last 25 years), liberal lefty, who has voted labour all my life and you just thought you’ll just abuse me?

And you wonder why the middle ground swing voters don’t fancy voting for the present Labour Party? Seriously?

Youre like ISIS. Anyone who isn’t ‘pure’ enough must be castigated for their blasphemy.

It’s a good look. Ripe for electoral victory

All you corbynites come across as fundamentalist Waco style cult. Because that’s what you are. Blind and deluded, nasty, vicious and authoritarian. Just a re-badged militant

& why ‘hard left’ Labour did better than the last 2 centrist efforts?

May said “it’s me or him, back my Brexit plan”… and lots of us said, “no chance”!

Also, there was a lot of stuff in the Labour manifesto that a lot of people liked… it was easily the best option… the bonus was that they actually had a full manifesto! The other parties hardly bothered.

You think at i’m a gammon’?

You are a centrist scumbag moderate gammon.

Binbins. Your post (since deleted) was either directed at me or dazh and was x10 more abusive than my response so wind your holier than thou gammon neck in.

I don’t think JC can win an election either. I would have changed him soon after the last one.

You are a lefty centrist right wing liberal authoritarian scumbag moderate gammon.

Fixed it.