Labour Party problems

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  • Labour Party problems
  • handybar
    Member

    Interesting character, this Hatton chap.
    Apparently he has recently made a lot of money out of property development, which begs the question, why isn’t he in the Tory party?

    Wonder how many of the points raised in that twitter thread are covered by this documentary series on the influence of the Israel lobby in UK politics:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

    Including ‘diplomats’ based in the Israeli Embassy talking of taking out UK politicians, not forgetting the vast sums of money available for such activities:

    Still a bit perplexed how Joan Ryan (featured in the video above) can leave the Labour Party, yet remain as chair of Labour Friends of Israel…

    Anna Soubry is on the last leg at 10. Could be interesting

    piha
    Member

    It appears that some people just can’t help themselves…..

    More denial?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Its like some weird form of Tourettes, isn’t it?

    At the end of the day, any organisation that thinks its in any way acceptable to very publicly welcomes a total **** like Derek Hatton into the fold, without thinking how many people regard him (correctly) as a truly abhorrent human being, is just completely detached from reality.

    As someone who’s been a lifelong Labour voter I just look on in total despair at the state of the Labour party. Its a disgrace. An opinion polling shows is presently shared by the vast majority of the population, at the very time it has never been needed more

    And it all comes from the typically simplistic, 6th form level, black an white, nuance-free mindset of the hard left – my enemies enemy is my friend. So I support the Palestinians cause therefore anyone else who shares my support for Palestine is my friend. The next thing your being photographed in a room with a bunch of terrorists, and you’ve just admitted a load of antisemites with open arms.

    See also: I don’t like how America conducts its foreign policy, therefore anyone else who objects to America conducts its foreign policy is obviously ok. So then you’re supporting the regime in Venezuela (because it claims to be socialist) which is presently ruthlessly oppressing its people while literally starving them to death and stopping (evil American) foreign food age reaching them.

    Its absolutely tragic, but inevitable once the party had been take over by an idiot like Corbyn, and the kind of clueless muppets he attracts!

    the Labour party has now been completely colonised and a total lost cause. I can’t see how it can go on for much longer without the inevitable rupture into two parties. if it wasn’t for the pressure of Brexit, it would already have happened IMO.

    Those who inhabit the real world will leave to join their TIG colleagues, leaving a rump of clueless Marxists who will wither away as the 6th formers who previously supported them grow up and see them for what they are.

    I expect the usual suspects will be along soon to tell us how its all a conspiracy by ‘the right wing media’ and ‘the Blairites’.

    If you use the word ‘moderate’ as a term of abuse, you really need to have a word with yourself, and instead of reaching for the usual candidates for blame, look a bit closer to home

    jate
    Member

    I was listening to Chris Williamson the other day on Radio 4 after Ian Austin quit the Labour Party. He simply denied that there was any problem with anti-semitism in the party and that those who had left citing anti-semitism were simply lying about their reasons for going. At least John McDonnell had the intelligence to understand that when you are losing MPs you have to as a minimum claim to recognise that there must be underlying problems that need to be discussed and addressed.
    With “friends” like Williamson, Corbyn really has no need of enemies.

    gobuchul
    Member

    The tweet that got Hatton in trouble, wasn’t anti-Semitic. It was a criticism of Israel.

    doris5000
    Member

    The tweet that got Hatton in trouble, wasn’t anti-Semitic. It was a criticism of Israel.

    it was demanding apologies from random British jews on behalf of Israel. That is anti-semitic.

    The average man on the street is not responsible for the actions of a foreign government, even if he has the temerity to wear a yarmulke, and it is unacceptable to pretend that he is.

    The average man on the street is not responsible for the actions of a foreign government, even if he has the temerity to wear a yarmulke, and it is unacceptable to pretend that he is.

    Wholly agree on this point, however, for fairness and balance, given demands being placed on the Labour Leadership, surely as chief rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis should make every effort to root out those within British and Commonwealth Jewry who support the more extreme elements of Zionism and military colonialism that blight the reputation of the Jewish faith.

    (something that his predecessor Jonathan Sacks clearly failed in)

    Such actions would show a strong sense of leadership and goodwill restoring faith that this is not just cynical political exploitation.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    it was demanding apologies from random British jews on behalf of Israel.

    if it was this one :

    “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

    then it wasn’t – ‘speaking out publicly agaiinst’ is the opposite of an apology, it is protesting against.

    There must be some other tweet as I can’t see much wrong in that statement – it is saying that jewish people that don’t agree with the actions of Israel should be vocal that Israel is not doing this ‘in their name’ – i.e. it’s a similar situation to muslims being quiet and letting people form the opinion that they agree with what ISIS is doing because they are also muslims and therefore must be ‘aligned’ in their views.

    Not that I am supporting Hatton, but if that is the tweet then I can’t see the problem.

    gobuchul
    Member

    this is not just cynical political exploitation.

    This is exactly what it is.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Looks like its not yet time to stop digging. The hashtag #istandwithchriswilliamson is now doing the rounds on Twitter. I’m sure its all well-reasoned, reasonable and not at all antisemitic.

    Do you think that there might be some mentions of antisemitism by Theresa during PMQ’s by any chance? Once again labour presents the Tory’s with an open goal and a chance for…SQUIRREL!!!

    Next stop for Labours present fantastic public image: Holocaust denial?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    i.e. it’s a similar situation to muslims being quiet and letting people form the opinion that they agree with what ISIS is doing because they are also muslims and therefore must be ‘aligned’ in their views.

    Agreed. And that is why he was wrong to say it.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I expect the usual suspects will be along soon to tell us how its all a conspiracy

    Do you not think that where the labour party currently is, is in some small way a result of the relentless opposition exercised by the ‘blairites’?

    Is the complaint solely about the personalities or the policies? If the latter, which policies are so extreme that it’s worth splitting the party over?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    is in some small way a result of the relentless opposition exercised by the ‘blairites’?

    And there we go. I think how you describe ‘relentless opposition’ gives the level of expectation of politicians, given the disengaged, totally reclusive nature of the labour front bench and the usual wall of silence not being emitted by it.

    I don’t see ‘relentless opposition’ at all. Aall I see is weary resignation from the ‘Blairites’ at the hopeless shambles the party has become under the present ‘leadership’. Hence people now reaching the point where they’re just leaving

    And as for policies? Do they actually have any? You wouldn’t ****ing know it!! The labour ‘leadership’ seems to do the square root of **** all in either opposing the Tory’s or setting out any alternatives

    But I suppose thats all the fault of the press and the Blairites too, isn’t it?

    No blame must ever be laid at the door of the sainted Jeremy!

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Agreed. And that is why he was wrong to say it.

    explain that a bit more please – why is it wrong to point out to the Jewish community that it might be a good time to remind people that what Israel does is not ‘a Jewish thing’, and therefore they shouldn’t form anti-semetic views based on the actions of Israel ?

    What exactly is anti-semetic about pointing that out ?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    What you’re talking about is collective accountability. Which is just nonsense

    Or will you be be popping over to Jamaica to make a press statement to apologise for the actions of the UK government in deporting people during the Windrush scandal, and the hostile environment created by Theresa May in general which has effected them?

    Applying your same principles, you’ll obviously have been having plenty of sleepless nights about it? And so you should! Again applying your principles, its your fault for not vocally denouncing it. Your silence makes you complicit

    Agreed. And that is why he was wrong to say it.

    +1.

    @binners Ironic that you were the one who brought up nuance don’t you think?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Care to expand? While we’re all apparently doing irony?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    explain that a bit more please – why is it wrong to point out to the Jewish community that it might be a good time to remind people that what Israel does is not ‘a Jewish thing’, and therefore they shouldn’t form anti-semetic views based on the actions of Israel ?

    What exactly is anti-semetic about pointing that out ?

    It’s not very often that I agree with Binners, but I think he’s right on this issue. British Jews are not accountable for the Israeli government because of what is no more than an accident of birth. I think it carries more weight when Jews do speak out, and am glad when they do so, but to demand it of them seems to me to be anti-semitic. If I were to be uncharitable, I could take the view that Hatton’s tweet was the carefully crafted kind of dog whistle we sometimes see used to associate muslims with terrorists. The sort of thing we used to do to Irish people not so long ago, so it seems we haven’t come very far.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    that’s BS, if I was getting flack from people because of the actions of the government, I don’t see a problem in me pointing out that what they were doing was not something that I agreed with, that they were doing it ‘not in my name’.

    And if I kept quiet and just complained to a mate that I was sick about getting flack about it, and he told me that I should point out to anyone giving me flack that this wasn’t being done ‘in my name’ in order to reduce that flack, then I would think that was a reasonable comment.

    What you’re talking about is collective accountability. Which is just nonsense

    it may be nonsense, but that is how people work, isn’t it?

    Same as people on here calling all conservative voters ‘tory scum’, for example.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    that’s BS, if I was getting flack from people because of the actions of the government, I don’t see a problem in me pointing out that what they were doing was not something that I agreed with, that they were doing it ‘not in my name’.

    It would be better if you could avoid name-calling just because someone disagrees with you.
    No-one said there’s a problem with pointing it out, simply that there shouldn’t be an expectation.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    It would be better if you could avoid name-calling just because someone disagrees with you

    ??

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Maybe we could get all the Jews to wear ‘Not in my name’ t-shirts so we could easily identify them?

    Or some kind of badge or insignia?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    And as for policies? Do they actually have any?

    That barely deserves a response tbh but I’m going to anyway (I’m off work so have plenty time!). You don’t like Corbyn, fair enough. As I’ve said before I’m pretty non-plussed by him too. However the policies that his leadership, with the full backing of members, has put forward are something I’m extremely supportive of. What’s tragic is that these policies, which all labour voters (and many others) should be able to support, are being obfuscated by the continued obsession with Corbyn the personality.

    I’d expect the tories to do this as deflecting attention from policies which appear to be very popular with the voters is their best strategy for remaining in power. But the fact that it’s supposedly ‘labour’ people who are doing their job for them is beyond the pale. Given this I’m suprised there isn’t all out civil war between MPs and members who support the policies and those who are obsessed with preventing their implementation by ensuring labour never win an election.

    I agree they probably will split, and the end result will be continued tory government. It’s fine if some MPs (and it is mostly MPs) don’t like Corbyn, but what I cannot understand or accept is that they prioritise bringing him down over winning an election and having the chance to implement the policies which as labour MPs they should obviously support.

    they prioritise bringing him down over winning an election

    Maybe, just maybe, The Absolute Boy is a massive turn off for the electorate, thereby making winning an election rather difficult. If that were the case*, then getting rid of him would be sensible political strategy.

    *It isn’t though, is it? It’s all the fault of the Red Tory Blairite scrum and their mates in the biased MSM, amirite?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Again: Jeremy Corbyn is totally unelectable. While he is leader of the Labour party it doesn’t have a cat in hells chance of forming a government. As amply illustrated by his woeful poll ratings against the most shambolic and incompetent government this country has ever witnessed, presently driving us towards economic Armageddon.

    This isn’t the fault of the ‘Blairites’ ‘moderates’, the right wing press (which apparently no includes the Guardian) or disillusioned labour voters. It is entirely the fault of Jeremy Corbyn for dragging the party off down an economic and political cul-de-sac.

    The idea that your suggesting – that moderate labour members would rather have a Tory government than a Corbyn one is both ludicrous and insulting. Its precisely because we want to get rid of this shower and have a Labour government in place that we want rid of the useless, totally ineffective 70’s throwback.

    Any leader worth his salt would have taken action against Chris Williamson over his antisemitic behaviour this week

    Heard anything from the Labour ‘Leadership’ yet?

    No… me neither

    Expect any action to be taken against him (a Corbyn ally)?

    No… me neither

    How do you think this all looks to swing voters in key marginals? You know… the ones you need to get onside to win elections?

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Maybe we could get all the Jews to wear ‘Not in my name’ t-shirts so we could easily identify them?

    Or some kind of badge or insignia?

    what a clever comment – not.

    what about the anti- iraq war protests – that’s pretty much what they were doing – saying that the actions of the government weren’t in their name. Maybe they shouldn’t have done that?

    the point is that people have difficulty seperating the actions of Israel from the jewish faith. So maybe give them a helping hand to realise the difference, rather than sitting there bleating about anti-semitism.

    or maybe just frequent internet forums and virtue-signal all day, because that makes a big difference.

    Perhaps the best bet is for Jeremy Corbyn to express his unwavering support for Israel, demand air strikes against Syria and Iran and pledge to develop ‘even closer ties between Britain and Israel’ if he becomes PM…

    Some proper anti-semitic mentalists on this thread.

    Turnerguy, get lost and go and apologise on behalf of all Christian white men to each individual nation Britain colonised.

    How about asking all Muslims to distance themselves from Islamic terrorism and 9/11 – each group and country individually – Iran, Hamas, Isis etc etc etc

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    the point is that people have difficulty seperating the actions of Israel from the jewish faith

    Only if they’re a bit thick.

    My family is Irish Catholic. Should I be apologising for the Birmingham pub bombings?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    While he is leader of the Labour party it doesn’t have a cat in hells chance of forming a government.

    Totally agree. It would be hard for any leader to win an election when his parliamentary colleagues accuse him of being a racist along with many other absurd accusations. He doesn’t do himself any favours of course, the Chris Williamson issue being a case in point, but you can’t seriously suggest that the actions of moderate labour MPs haven’t damaged him, and the party’s chances at the next election. It’s both tragic and completely unnecessary.

    Binners, the hilarious thing is that their attitudes just cause more Jews to feel the need to move to Israel.

    There was a famous one recently, an Arab in France told a Jewish Philosopher to **** off back to Israel – but then they hate and protest against them going there as well.

    As if making all Jews feel uncomfortable is going to resolve the issue.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Some proper anti-semitic mentalists on this thread.

    where exactly are the anti-semitic comments ?

    Turnerguy, piss off and go and apologise on behalf of all Christian white men to each individual nation Britain colonised.

    that couldn’t be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn’t around then, but if it were being done now and I didn’t agree with it then I don’t see the problem with me making it known that I didn’t agree with it, particularly to anyone who sought to blame me for my government’s actions.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    But the fact that it’s supposedly ‘labour’ people who are doing their job for them is beyond the pale.

    Where does Tom Watson, the elected deputy leader of the “Labour” (big L) Party, fit in with your conspiracy theories?

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Subscriber

    Jeremy Corbyn is totally unelectable

    Agreed… here’s my 2p

    I’ll never vote for Labour whilst he’s leader, I don’t mind him staying on as an MP or being part of the Cabinet as a voice for the more left leaning Labour supporters, and I’m told he’s an excellent MP for his constituents.

    I won’t vote for Labour whilst ‘Momentum’ and other organisations like it control so much of the party, I’ve decided they’re not very nice people, they don’t have my interests in mind and I don’t agree with their politics and policies.

    Okay, I am only one vote, but nationally I represent the view of millions of like-minded people. Data from the last election suggests people like me held on till the very, very last moment before deciding they couldn’t vote for anyone else, or indeed stay away so we pinched our nose and voted for Labour but my stance on that has changed and current polls suggest I’m far from alone, as much as I like my local Labour MP (mostly because she’s Anti-Brexit and votes against Labour to try to stop it).

    So, for the Hardcore Labour supporters who don’t agree with me – do you really think STW is an online Tory heartland – really? Do you think it’s in your best interests to call us all Tories, tell us we’re wrong when every passing week brings more evidence we’re right, or try to explain away the indefensible? Because we’re all voters with an interest in politics, otherwise we wouldn’t be here.

    Labour lost the last election, as hard to accept as that might seem what with JC and crew cheering about coming second, Labour lost and Maybot and the Tories have 5 years in power.

    The great socialist uprising failed, it didn’t work, the momentum has stalled and membership is falling. If they couldn’t beat the seemingly unelectable May, they won’t beat them with a fresh new leader in 2022, not when they’ve finally driven away Centrists like me, not when you’re losing MPs who’d rather spend years without a party than support Corbyn.

    Sometimes you have to accept that in order to affect change you have to appeal to the majority of people and what they want – not try to dictate to us what you think we should have and berate us is we don’t agree.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Only if they’re a bit thick.

    which seems to be a significant portion of the population.

    Witness how anti-semitic feeling and attacks increases after Israel ‘cross the line’ in their actions. Witness the number of flat-earthers, the number of people that think corbyn is a gentle, kindly, competant type of politician…

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