Labour Party problems

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  • Labour Party problems
  • Pigface
    Member

    how the hell has the Labour Party managed to get itself into such a mess about anti semetism?

    On a side note the Arron Banks Alistair Campbell twitter confrontations are getting ugly

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    Because they have got tied up with arguing over terminology rather than principles.

    Problem is simple. One side is oppressing another, is it wrong? Is it wrong if the oppressed side retaliates?

    tjagain
    Member

    Its all bogus.  Its the next stage in the attacks on corbyn.  Its a ” have you stopped beating your wife yet?” question

    first they tried to label him a communist.  It didn’t stick.  Then they tried to label him a terrorist.  It didn’t stick so now this.

    Yes there may be a little antisemitism in the labour party but its nothing compared to the outright racism in the tory party and how much do you hear of that?  any anti semitism also predates Corbyn

    Its also partly being done as labour often criticises Israel and many want to see anti Israel = anti Semitism and this is also a part of that campaign to make politicians afraid of criticising Israel

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Because the press tell you they have.

    Onzadog
    Member

    There’s still a Labour party? Who knew!

    fatoldgit
    Member

    Are nothing compared to the problems in the Conservative party….

    BUT

    vested interests decide what makes the news and what doesn’t

    Pigface
    Member

    I think fatoldgit and Drac have it

    kerley
    Member

    A bit of an anti islamic thing did come up a few months back in the Tory party but it was quickly buried never to be seen again.  The fact that the tory party is worse doesn’t really help though.

    Corbyn is simply not good at dealing with press and image.  You sometimes have to do things to stop issues getting out of hand or continuing even if you know they won’t make any difference as there really isn’t much of a problem anyway.  Just at least look as though you are tackling it and have a plan and it will go away.  It is not as though there are actually any measures to prove otherwise.

    He makes it too easy for the right wing to keep on beating him over the head.

    Unfortunately the subtleties of the can’t say bad stuff about Israel are going to be lost on most people who just see the headlines.

    On the subject of which I heard about the following on R4 this morning:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-criticises-jeremy-corbyn-as-labour-s-antisemitism-crisis-deepens-qb2dfnfxv

    I’m not convinced. McDonnell and Corby are very much in this together, I really doubt there’s a significant difference of opinion between them. Moreover some kind of action seems appropriate if she behaved aggressively/swore at Corbyn.

    Personally, I think the biggest travesty of the whole anti-semitism issue was Ken Livingstone. What he said wasn’t remotely anti-semitic or even untrue. (Mind you it was a deeply unhelpful thing to say at that point in time, which might have been the real reason Labour went for him.)

    DrJ
    Member

    I heard this on R4 this morning

    On Today, I assume, which has been acting as mouthpiece for anti-Corbyn Jews for months now.  For all the coverage they give the issue, they still have yet to explain the IHRA thing, content just to sling mud on behalf of their Tory paymasters.

    piha
    Member

    tjagain – Its all bogus.

    Utter and complete rubbish!

    Didn’t Corbyn admit there is anti semitism in the Labour party? I do think that the right wing press has seized the opportunity to smear Corbyn but he isn’t helping himself or the party. If 60 odd Rabbis, various groups and the Jewish community have raised concerns then its not all driven by the Mail & Co.

    I can’t believe that people are suggesting that because the Conservatives have racism within their party that it should mean that Labour are OK with their racist elements. Doesn’t that allow the Conservatives to say that UKIP should deal with their racists before the Conservatives should?

    Maybe some of you need to have a think a bit more about your comments.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    I can’t believe that people are suggesting that because the Conservatives have racism within their party that it should mean that Labour are OK with their racist elements.

    No one did. You need to think about your comment.

    Premier Icon williamnot
    Subscriber

    As someone who has just resigned from the party because the rising ant-Semitism disgusts me, the far left have always had an issue but to see it become mainstream has scunnered me, Labour will not get my vote till Corbyn and his fellow travellers are gone

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    As someone who has just resigned from the party because the rising ant-Semitism disgusts me

    Does anyone have an actual reasonable and factual link to what is being alleged?

    tjagain
    Member

    piha

    It is bogus.  read my post.  Its all about establishment / right wing press attacks on Corbyn.

    Yes there may be some anti semitism in labour although given the number of jewish mps and jewish organisations in the labour party I doubt it is much

    However its completely obvious that this is being weaponised to damage corbyn in a co ordinated series of attacks.  Di d you even realise that the labour party had an investigation and then set out a very strong policy on this?

    the reason those far rightgroups are going after Corbyn is not anti semitism.  Its about labour critism of Israel.

    tjagain
    Member

    Williamnot – any concrete examples?  You must have some given your resignation.

    piha
    Member

    @ Drac – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44957906   The 3 main Jewish papers unite on their front pages. Obviously as you claim “Because the press tell you they have”. How many copies do the 3 papers sell each month and are you a regular buyer of the publications?

    Owen Jones tweeted today regarding Peter Willsman, secretary of the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy and is seeking re-election to the NEC – “I won’t vote for someone who undermines the struggle against the disgusting disease of anti-Semitism”.

    Corbyn and his fellow travellers

    Corbyns a pikey???

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    How many copies do the 3 papers sell each month and are you a regular buyer of the publications?

    I buy zero I’ve no idea how many they sell. Not sure why that’s relevant.

    Williamnot – any concrete examples?

    I rather feel I’m taking bait here, but there are some here if you really are genuinely looking for examples:

    Specifically the one that mentions Goldman Sachs and the one the denies the holocaust. I didn’t look any further.

    Premier Icon williamnot
    Subscriber

    plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own CLP of moonhowlers who think mossad are behind everything gaining more and more power.  I saw minutes of Birkenhead CLP where they rejected diversity training with the Jewish Labour Group because of “possible links with ISIS and the Israeli government”

    The very fact that the NEC is willing to die in a ditch to protect their pals rights to compare Israel to the Nazis is pretty damning evidence in itself

    piha
    Member

    @ TJ – Large parts of the Jewish community have voiced their concerns and many of them have been Labour supporters. Or is it as you insist – “Its all about establishment / right wing press”.

    If it was any other minority community and political party, I wonder if the comments would be the supportive of the political party. And for the record I’m no supporter of either of the main political parties.

    tjagain
    Member

    piha – and large parts of the jewish community work happily with labour.  You need to look at who is doing the shouting and question their motives.  Jewish mo0derates have been very scathing in their Briticism of the far right jewish groups pushing this idea.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-conference-jewish-supporter-vote-political-weapon-a7330891.html

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231

    etc etc

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Can I just check there the issue is about the line “Jewish Trump Fanatics” Is that right?

    Or is there a lot more going on – I saw some idiots emailing stuff around but it doesn’t look like the massive issue it is being claimed to be.

    It does correlate that the support for Gaza and Palestine is getting right up their noses though

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    That the Labour Party is spending months debating the semantics of a definition of anti-semitism yet hasn’t bothered to put together a coherent position on Brexit tells you everything you need to know about Corbyn

    A sixth form protest group, at best. Certainly not anything remotely resembling an opposition

    *sits back and awaits TJ telling me that this, like everything else, is a ‘Blairite’ plot against the glorious leader*

    piha
    Member

    @ Drac – “Because the press tell you they have”.

    Even the Chakrabati Report suggested there was some anti semitism.

    Even Jeremy Corbyn in his anti semitism statement states We have taken decisive action over allegations of anti-semitism since I became  leader, suspending all those involved from membership

    Even Baroness Royall found that Labour finds that members of the Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) did engage in antisemitic acts and some Jewish members do not feel comfortable attending the [OULC] meetings, let alone participating.

    Even a cross-party Select Committee on antisemitism called on Corbyn, Chakrabati and Livingstone, amongst others to give evidence in a separate, wider investigation of anti-semitism. The Select Committee’s report described the Chakrabati Inquiry as “compromised” and criticised the Labour party’s handling of anti-Semitism.

    And all of the above proves the press told them to? I won’t add the various MPs, Jewish groups and representatives that have raised concerns too.

    tjagain
    Member

    Nope Binners – its a right wing attempt to discredit him that is sticking.  Unlike the previous attempts to label him a communist and a terrorist that didn’t.

    It is so obvious that this is what is happening.

    Piha – read the piece from the independent

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Even the Chakrabati Report suggested there was some anti semitism.

    To be clear I’m not saying it hasn’t existed in the party with some members I’m referring to the claims it’s a mess when in fact it is being dealt with.

    Even Jeremy Corbyn in his anti semitism statement states We have taken decisive action over allegations of anti-semitism since I became  leader, suspending all those involved from membership

    There you go.

    That the Labour Party is spending months debating the semantics of a definition of anti-semitism yet hasn’t bothered to put together a coherent position on Brexit tells you everything you need to know about Corbyn

    This.

    I couldn’t really give a toss about Judaism , Islam, CoS, CoE or any of the other fairy tale flat earthers, when there are actual real issues to be addressed.

    footflaps
    Member

    It is bogus. read my post. Its all about establishment / right wing press attacks on Corbyn.

    Basically as the Conservative Party / Brexit unravel it becomes apparent that Labour might get in power, so the Establishment does whatever it can to thwart this. Their current strategy is anti-Semitism, which I really can’t see being taken that seriously by the majority of the country. Seems like a complete storm in a tea cup to me.

    Even the Chakrabati Report suggested there was some anti semitism.

    All political parties have some racist / slightly racist members – just look at the Tories and the anti-Muslim rhetoric. You’ll never eradicate it all, just like you’ll never have a totally crime free society.

    Can I just check there the issue is about the line “Jewish Trump Fanatics” Is that right?

    I don’t know, but listening to the recording of the whole thing in context and the tone he said it in did sound mildly iffy to me. In contrast what Ken Livingstone said seemed completely reasonable to me and he ended up having to leave the party!

    That the Labour Party is spending months debating the semantics of a definition of anti-semitism yet hasn’t bothered to put together a coherent position on Brexit tells you everything you need to know about Corbyn

    This. It’s fiddling while Rome burns. Although now you mention it maybe it’s a deliberate strategy to divert attention away from the fact that Labour are as hamstrung as the government about a Brexit strategy. I don’t anti-Semitism will cos them many votes among their core voters. In contrast Brexit could theoretically cost them half their support whatever they do.

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Subscriber

    No the party doesn’t have a anti semetism problem, Corbyn isn’t a Brexit favouring protectionist, Momentum isn’t a nasty hard left group who will try to destroy anyone who tries to highlight that.

    #fakenews

    piha
    Member

    @ Drac

    And Labour didn’t quite take the decisive action with Ken Livingstone that they should have. Maybe the press told them what action they should take………

    Do you still think this is all down to the Press?

    I don’t think Corbyn is anti semitic but due to his long held views on Isreal/Jewish State/Palestine, I think he struggles to deal with the issues that the current anti semitism issues present for Labour. This frustrates the Jewish community and gives fuel to his opponents.

    @ tjagain – “You need to look at who is doing the shouting”…….Jewdas and Michael Segalov…..!!!!!

    I quite enjoy reading Jewdas – https://www.jewdas.org/68-jewish-rabbits-from-across-uk-gardens-sign-unprecedented-letter-supporting-labours-antisemitism-definition/

    Grrrrrr, why can’t I get the quote function to work!

    footflaps
    Member

    I don’t think anti-Semitism will cost them many votes among their core voters.

    Yep, I really can’t see it being a big thing outside the Westminster media bubble..

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    The Select Committee’s report described the Chakrabati Inquiry as “compromised” and criticised the Labour party’s handling of anti-Semitism.

    It is worth paying attention to what they said about some of the other political parties. For some reason though that gets skipped over.

    Its odd how there were no headlines about the Maybot lying about the tory code of conduct and claiming it including the IHRA definition (plus all the additional bits) when in fact it didnt mention antisemitism at all.

    No the party doesn’t have a anti semetism problem, Corbyn isn’t a Brexit favouring protectionist, Momentum isn’t a nasty hard left group who will try to destroy anyone who tries to highlight that.

    When you put it like that of all the problems Labour have right now, anti-semitism is the one with least evidence and least electorally damaging. I’m starting to seriously suspect they’re deliberately drip feeding it into the news.

    If they hadn’t had a pop at Rabbis today they’d be answering questions on Brexit/Momentum/their dismal polls against the worst government in living memory.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Do you still think this is all down to the Press?

    I never claimed it was all down the press, the press highlight what will sell stories dramatic headlines cause outrage a bit like the ones you linked.

    701arvn
    Member

    From the IHRA definition ; Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    It surprises me that some in the labour party can’t understand how doing this is an attempt to make the crimes committed by the Nazis some how less bad than they actually were. It is a ‘yes the Nazis were bad but look the Jews are bad as well’ type argument.

    It is possible to hold the view that the state of Israel does bad things and state that view without a reference to the Nazis and I’m with the IHRA on this one, to do so is clearly anti-Semitic and therefore the Labour party have answered the question.

    Premier Icon williamnot
    Subscriber

    @ 701arvn

    considering the amount of “what Ken Livingstone said wasn’t so bad ” comments on this thread I’m not sure many understand your point

    piha
    Member

    I never claimed it was all down the press, the press highlight what will sell stories dramatic headlines cause outrage a bit like the ones you linked.

    The only link I had posted highlighted the BBC article about the 3 Jewish communities newspapers articles.

    Still, Chakrabati, Corbyn, Cross party select committee and Baroness Royall are just the press telling me Labour have an issue.

    ETA – Quote function worked.

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