I believe the behaviour of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews is primarily motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs, not sympathy with the Palestinian cause. Their doctrine teaches that it is forbidden to have a Jewish state until the Messiah returns, so they view the existence of the Israeli state as a form of heresy.

That’s one of those comments which appears to be so confused and missing the point that you don’t really know quite where to start from.

The whole primary reason for establishing Israel in the “Holy Land” ie Palestine, is based on religious belief. The belief that several thousands of years ago God promised the Jews Israel. Israel is the “Promise Land”, a claim shared by Christian fundamentalist in the United States who use it to justify their total support for Israel.

If Jews were to be given their own special homeland (I consider a British Jew’s homeland to be Britain, an Italian Jew’s homeland to be Italy, etc, to suggest otherwise is racist imo) after World War 2, then it should have been, imo, a large chunk of Germany. Quite apart from anything else it would have provided a permanent reminder to arguably the greatest crime against humanity in human history.

The ONLY reason Palestine was chosen was a religious one.

Palestine was chosen in reparation for crimes committed by Europeans over many centuries against Jews, because of religious claims, not because they were already there – 80% of the Arab population had to be either driven out or expelled.

Palestinians who can quite honestly prove that their parents or grandparents owned land in Palestine have no rights, but Jews living the other side of the world who make rather dubious claims that their ancestors lived in Palestine thousands of years have their rights protected by the military and financial might of the West.

How the **** can that be, surely it’s not possible? Well it is when you see it as a religious claim. The pro-Zionist Jew who was shouting at the Orthodox Jews at the demonstration “God is on our side” made that very clear.

So if you are going to dismiss the Orthodox Jews opposition to Israel because it is primarily motivated by religious beliefs then you must also dismiss all the support for Israel primarily motivated by religious beliefs.

Incidentally I think it is deeply insulting to suggest that Orthodox Jews “sympathy with the Palestinian cause” is only motived by religion and not genuine. It’s like suggesting that Christians aren’t really opposed to murder and that they only say it because it’s one of the Ten Commandants.

I know that the Good Captain made the comparison between Orthodox Jews and the “Westboro Baptist loons” but this comparison is completely false. The Westboro Baptists represent basically an extended family of well under 100 individuals, out of a total US population of over 300 million. There are about 2.2 million Orthodox Jews in the world and they represent about 20% of the Jewish population of Israel.

Sure, there are indeed some Orthodox Jews who don’t oppose Zionism, I wouldn’t claim otherwise, but conversely there are also many liberal and secular Jews who don’t support Zionism., some of whom were on the Palestinian Solidarity demo in Central London a couple of weeks ago.

The reason I gave the example of the Orthodox Jews was simply to emphasise the point that deeply religious Jews could be opposed to Israel, a rather important point when religion is being used to justify the case for Israel. It also amused me greatly to see Orthodox Jews chanting “shame on you” when a pro-Zionist Jew was shouting “God is on our side”

BTW I am acutely aware that if I was actually a high profile Labour Party member much of what I have posted on this thread could easily be taken out of context and I could now be facing expulsion from the party for anti-Semitism. It is one of several reasons why I have never joined the Labour Party.

Although do I agree with outofbreath that accusations of anti-Semitism probably don’t really cost the Labour Party many votes. I think that if people are really concerned about racism then they would recognise that racism directed at Black and Asian people, in terms of discrimination and violence, is far worse.

What it does do though is sow divisions within the party and creates a perception of disunity, which is extremely important to the opponents of the Labour Party. It also very significantly stifles all criticism of Israel. It has been a very long time since I last heard Corbyn (or any other senior Labour politician) condemn Israel. He has remained silent even after the latest UN condemnation of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/28/gaza-israel-un-inquiry-killings-protest-war-crimes-army

Because you probably won’t bother reading it :

The panel said in a statement that it had found “reasonable grounds to believe that Israeli snipers shot at journalists, health workers, children and persons with disabilities, knowing they were clearly recognisable as such”.

Thirty-five of those killed were children, three were clearly identifiable paramedics and two were clearly marked journalists, the report said.

They said: “These serious human rights and humanitarian law violations may constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity.”

Although do I agree with outofbreath that accusations of anti-Semitism probably don’t really cost the Labour Party many votes. I think that if people are really concerned about racism then they wouil recognise that racism directed at Black and Asian people, in terms of discrimination and violence, is far worse.

They also wouldn’t vote for the Brexit party or indeed the conservative party as racism is much deeper in those parties. Being a bit racist may actually help Labour get some votes…

* sorry dissonance i’ll try to less casual when I’m defending people from victim blaming

Nice passive aggressiveness there. It is always a good idea not to make things up when trying to make an argument. I am curious did you do it yourself or did you just repeat what you read elsewhere?

The whole primary reason for establishing Israel in the “Holy Land” ie Palestine, is based on religious belief.

Nah, it was derived from Herzl’s book ‘The Zionist Dream’ (1890s?). he also proposed somewhere in S America and another place in Africa.
With the creation of the state of Israel, Ha’aretz said it was Israel’s role to be the guard-dog of western interests and not much has changed there. It’s interesting when the non-religious jews get all religuous over the role of Israel whereas the hasidic religious jews are frequently anti-zionist. No apartheid state can last forever, changes will come but propping up the current regime and shouting down critics with accusations of AS is a pretty poor show in my book.

Never mind the antisemitism. Even better news! Looks like if your a mate of Jezza’s You can cop a feel as well, with the same complete impunity

you’re

he also proposed somewhere in S America and another place in Africa.

Which I thought was my point, ie, other places were considered but the “Holy Land” was chosen for religious reasons.

I said that my preferred choice would have been a chunk of Germany.

They could have expanded over a period of time into a larger chunk because apparently that’s fine. Or at least no one does anything about it. Anyone who tries to is dismissed as a terrorist. Or possibly even worse, anti-Semitic.

Mentioned him on the previous page, Binners. Along with the latest dodgy candidate.

Seems it’s not interesting any more. Maybe we all just expect it to be like that, so there’s no surprise or interest.

Nice passive aggressiveness there

genuinely wasn’t intended, but I can see that it reads like that, just being hyperbolic

How on earth has Chris Williamson been allowed back into the Labour Party?

How to shoot yourself in the foot.

A timely reminder that Keith Vaz remains a member of Parliament.

Interesting that there’s more Labour Friends of Israel than Conservative Friends of Israel.

How on earth has Chris Williamson been allowed back into the Labour Party?

Statement on Chris Williamson pic.twitter.com/WGYx9os2A0

— Tom Watson (@tom_watson) June 27, 2019