Home Forums Chat Forum Jeremy Corbyn

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  • Jeremy Corbyn
  • RustySpanner
    Full Member

    Seemed to go down very well on QT last night.

    Lifer
    Free Member

    mikertroid – Member
    As much as the Labour Manifesto sounds like we’d all be having so much of a better life once it’s implemented, sadly they haven’t truly considered how it would be funded.

    Except the IFS have said it’s fully funded and the published manifesto will contain funding details.

    It would end up Back to the 70s

    🙄

    Wearing flares and listening to Bread?

    binners
    Full Member

    As much as the Labour Manifesto sounds like we’d all be having so much of a better life once it’s implemented, sadly they haven’t truly considered how it would be funded. It would end up Back to the 70s. And that was horrible.

    Very true. Why stop there though? If we’re time travelling then we should stick with Theresa marching us all the way back to the 1950’s. I believe everything was a absolutely bally marvlous then, wasn’t it? A truly golden age?

    ulysse
    Free Member

    Better than back the Victims era under this shower of arrogant shite.
    Slave labour. Check.
    Poor dependant on charity. Check
    Workhouses. Check (I’ve posted sources for the reintroduction many times)
    No NHS? Work in progress.
    Selling of all National assets? Work in progress.
    Private “policing” been dun.

    rone
    Full Member

    Seemed to go down very well on QT last night.

    Yes, observed.

    However it’s how many times the rags can keep getting people to say ‘back to the 70s’ (with disregard to the oil crisis) that will stick .

    The Tories have much better PR. There was also no equal to “Brexit” in terms of catchy phrases which I think helped win the campaign. ‘Back to 70s’ will have a similar affect.

    The point is Labour are at least having a crack at shaping things. I can’t see the Tories doing anything other than the same old negative austerity because we haven’t got any money for anything unless it’s money for something they believe in.

    rone
    Full Member

    The whole thing would be awful. A flat rate of 25% across the board with a 10k personal allowance would raise more revenue and be fairer, with no get-outs

    .

    I wouldn’t agree with that tax system and I’m a slightly higher earner – we have a good living I want to collectively help others which means tax take needs to move with income.

    It’s not just particulars of the rate it’s how it’s enforced. So why not keep with our tax system but just deal with the people that jump through hoops better?

    binners
    Full Member

    I can’t see the Tories doing anything other than the same old negative austerity because we haven’t got any money for anything unless it’s money for something they believe in.

    Like further reductions in corporation tax? Abolishing capital gains tax? That type of thing?

    I was quite pleasantly surprised by the labour manifesto, in that its full of actual policies. Bold ones too

    I suspect the Tory manifesto will be about 2 sentences long, with some vague stuff about red, white and blue Brexit, or some such nonsense.

    Because one thing is becoming abundantly clearer with ever ‘Strong and Stable’ day

    Kim Jong May has plenty of policies she wants to implement. But theres no way on earth she’s going to tell us what they are. Because if she told us what here actual plans are – using Brexit as a flimsy cover to tear up the post-war settlement, and do away with things (like the NHS) that we’ve all taken for granted for decades – then theres no way on earth she’d get elected. And she knows it!

    I doubt the Tory manifesto will run to a side of A4. But what she’s really planning to do….? Well thats a different matter entirely. And we sure the **** won’t be hearing much about it. And certainly no detail

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    @rone, I think the accepted optimum rate is about 23%, I was just rounding up. A sliding tax rate as we have is ‘interesting’. I don’t begrudge paying taxes but when it actually pays to work less then there’s something broken in the system.

    @Lifer, they might have said so based on the assumption that swathes of people like me will continue to pay the tax they expect. That won’t happen. I’ll cut my hours. If it was ridiculously high tax, I’ll look to work overseas when the kids leave home. I pay more than my fair share. I do charity and voluntary work and neither of my kids burden the state education system. These options do cost me but it’s a choice I’ve made/had forced upon me by having kids with special eduacational needs. My employer provides my healthcare. I’m incredibly fortunate in those facts but there’s a bit of give and take. Squeeze someone too hard and they’ll go pop!

    So, in my opinion as a voter, labour’s plan isn’t achievable. Everyone has their opinion and I’ll wait until 9th of June when the results come in to see how the collective mind of the UK decide the policies and leadership stand up.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    There were a series of tweets from @ComRes yesterday showing by and large that the public really like Labour’s manifesto policies but when asked who they think has the most realistic and well thought through policies:

    Tories: 51%
    Labour: 32%

    The state we’re in. 😆

    Meanwhile, Mummy’s been on LBC lying about the EU again, and today will be in the NE talking about “patriotic” working class people.

    kerley
    Free Member

    I pay more than my fair share.

    The problem being addressed through taxes is because you receive more than your fair share.

    You will leave the country or reduce hours but majority won’t. And if it was up to me I would be glad for selfish and greedy people to leave as it would be a better place.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    Buy “you receive more than your fair share” do you mean salary ? And if so, what is the “fair share” ?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I would be adversely affected tax-wise and would be one of a huge number of people changing my working pattern and the net result would be less income for HMRC. I wouldn’t be avoiding tax, just not liable for so much. The whole thing would be awful. A flat rate of 25% across the board with a 10k personal allowance would raise more revenue and be fairer, with no get-outs

    so a fairer way would be for the top 5% to pay less and to reduce the current personal allowance for all and make ALL of those earning under 45 k pay more tax and all of those over pay less tax.

    i think you have confused better for you and the wealthy and fairer
    It would also reduce the total tax take whilst passing the burden to the less well off

    You are a Tory I assume.- happy to avoid tax and happy to say it fairer to make the poorer than you pay more whilst you save.

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    @kerley

    Sorry, can you explain. What problem is being addressed?

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    @junkyard if you want to remove the personal tax allowance in toto, be my guest. Just suggesting an option to reduce burden on low incomes.

    Yes I vote Tory. They don’t quite do it for me but they’re the least worst option in my opinion. And that’s just it. We’re all entitled to opinions. We’re not robots and therefore every individual has differing needs and wants.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Just suggesting an option to reduce burden on low incomes.

    You suggested a TFA of £10k. You’re aware of what it is at present?

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    You will leave the country or reduce hours but majority won’t

    I really wouldn’t bet on that.
    Reducing hours to avoid higher rate taxes seems a very sensible choice for anyone. Better work/life balance without being penalised excessively for doing well for yourself.
    Put it this way – would you work overtime for half your normal hourly rate?

    What a lot of people seem to forget is that the better off are already paying vastly more. Even with a flat rate 25% income tax, someone earning 100K would be contributing 4x more than someone earning 25K.

    Most people that earn big money work really hard for it, as if they didn’t theres a queue of people behind them ready to take their jobs. Why shouldn’t hard work be rewarded?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    It would end up Back to the 70s. And that was horrible.

    You mean the Heath government and the 3-day week ?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    You will leave the country or reduce hours but majority won’t

    I’m seriously considering emigration with my family if brexit goes as badly as I fear it will.

    I’m am not alone in my peer group.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Just suggesting an option to reduce burden on low incomes.

    you reduced their tax threshold and you increased their tax rate

    if this was your aim then it was a spectacularly bad attempt at achieving it as you just increased the burden on them and ONLY reduced it for those earning over 45 k.
    Only the[very??] well off pay less with your plan.
    0-11.5=0%
    11,501-45 k = 20% tax rate currently

    We’re all entitled to opinions.

    of course we are but the maths here is the killer that defeats your argument and proves my opinion of what happens of we do what you want to do.

    You cannot really have an opinion on facts and the fact is your plan makes the poor pay more and the well off pay less whilst reducing the tax take
    If it really was an attempt to help the poor it was a very bad way to do it.

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    DD /junkyard yes you can keep the allowance as it is, I was being very rough in my figures as I’m on my phone! Argument still valid.

    The point is if I went 50% part time and did 25% consultancy I’d earn more gross than I do now, pay WAY less tax and many others would do the same. A 25% rate across the board (you’d have to look at how that’s workable for self employed etc) with carefully planned allowances do not tonne open to abuse would actually make the wealthy pay more…..

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Why shouldn’t hard work be rewarded?

    Thats a good question, next time I see Mrs Strong and Stable I’ll ask her about her working teachers and nurses.

    Ben_H
    Full Member

    The earlier comment about railways in continental Europe being based on newer infrastructure due to WW2 is quite far off the mark.

    The UK network’s inferiority is due to rationalisation from 1951-mid 70s (inc. Beeching) and a lack of appetite to invest in the railways post-1980s.

    That constraint is added to by the simply perverse post-1990s privatisation set-up; whereby a train operating company has almost zero incentive to add passenger capacity to the rolling stock.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    The point is if I went 50% part time and did 25% consultancy I’d earn more gross than I do now, pay WAY less tax and many others would do the same

    Genuine question – Can you please explain how?

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    Anyway, my Labour-loving STW friends/komrades, Politics, religion and money are all conversation topics that are a challenge!!

    I’ll not persuade you, you won’t persuade me. We’ll keep sharing the trails and nowt will change in the grand scheme of things.

    Time to go ride! Adios!

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    DD /junkyard yes you can keep the allowance as it is, I was being very rough in my figures as I’m on my phone! Argument still valid.

    As JY points out, you don’t even bloody know what the TFA is at present. So, yeah, everyone has their opinion, and hey, some people even base it on facts.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    many others would do the same

    can i have a numerical value to many as I dont think many really are able to just stop being PAYE and become consultants who do less and earn more.

    PS your maths is still wrong re tax – you sure you would be better off if you did this 😉

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Time to go ride! Adios!

    So you won’t explain your tax dodge then?

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    Thats a good question, next time I see Mrs Strong and Stable I’ll ask her about her working teachers and nurses.

    https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/adult-nurse

    Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £21,692 rising to £28,180 on Band 5 of the NHS Agenda for Change Pay Rates. Salaries in London attract a high-cost area supplement.
    With experience, in positions such as nurse team leader on Band 6, salaries progress to £26,041 to £34,876.
    At more senior levels such as nurse advanced, modern matron and nurse consultant (Bands 7 to 8c) salaries range from £31,072 to £67,805.

    Assuming the linked data is correct it seems like nurses do just fine.

    kerley
    Free Member

    I’ll not persuade you, you won’t persuade me. We’ll keep sharing the trails and nowt will change in the grand scheme of things.

    That depends if you want a fairer society and don’t want to continue taking more than your fair share and then bitching and moaning when asked to pay some of back.

    You can either accept that you get paid very well and are very lucky to be in that position so can spread some of that around or you take a selfish view, dodge taxes etc,. to make sure you have more money than you actually need while those around you live in poverty.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    A Staff Nurse earns an average salary of £23,137 per year.

    http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Staff_Nurse/Salary

    the avergae wages is £27 , 5K iirc

    So doing fine means most earn less than the average

    tom84
    Free Member

    Though of course we would like gov policies to be immediately costed against income, I wouldn’t mind if the gov borrowed to pay for value-adding policies like reversing austerity and spending on infrastructure, or if money was spent on schemes to increase gov income directly, without making money for businesses who are out to extort and exploit. This is not just because it is the priority of the gov to take care of the lives of our fellow citizens on our behalf, but because, as we have seen in America, there is economic gain to be had in nurture, rather aggression and greed.
    When we play the ‘how are they going to afford it’ game with labour we have to remember that the tories’ income is based on incredible short termism, a strategy of slash and burn, selling off everything they can get away with and ruining people’s lives, communities, and the working of the country in the process. The idea that becoming a ‘more efficient place to do (only a select few kinds of) business’, which is how they justify their economic policies of deregulation, crushing labour rights, lowering taxes and privatisation, is pure speculation, especially with Brexit on the horizon. Labour are so much on the back foot about costing, and the fear in the media is about how things might be if labour borrowed rather than what is actually going on now. (I am saying this NOT out of skepticism about the manifesto but because of what I think would be a fairer representation of what is going on.)
    All this is especially rich coming from the tories because the borrowing figures have increased under the tories, not decreased, but the emphasis on the deficit (which is much easier to fiddle and puts short against long term effects) instead of borrowing, has obscured this.
    The other thing I think is very unfair about representations in the media is the description of policies of re-making public, of taking back royal mail, for example, as ‘radical’. Presumably re-making public those areas of the NHS (or the whole of it, or the education system as things are going) that are already private would be described as radical too? Why wouldn’t it be described the other way around? Here is a load of great things that people have paid for together over a long history, that no one party owns, that WE own, and which people have grafted at all their lives at because they believe helping others and doing good: wouldn’t it be pretty radical for an group of aristocrats and businessmen to sell those things to their mates?

    kerley
    Free Member

    Most people that earn big money work really hard for it, as if they didn’t theres a queue of people behind them ready to take their jobs. Why shouldn’t hard work be rewarded?

    They work harder than a nurse or a teacher? Why shouldn’t the nurse or teacher get rewarded? How does a nurse or teacher get to earn big money? (And no £21 – £40k per year is not big money)

    A lot of people do the jobs they do because they can (via good parenting, schooling, genetics – intelligence, ability) and it has little to do with working harder than anyone else. I.e. they have been lucky in life.

    So why should people who are lucky and have a good life set from the start get rewarded more than those that don’t?

    Lifer
    Free Member

    Overtime pushes me well into higher tax bracket but I don’t end up with less money because of it

    mikertroid – Member

    The point is if I went 50% part time and did 25% consultancy I’d earn more gross than I do now, pay WAY less tax

    Why aren’t you doing that now if it’s higher gross? 😐

    binners
    Full Member

    Meanwhile, Mummy’s been on LBC lying about the EU again, and today will be in the NE talking about “patriotic” working class people.

    While making damn sure that she never runs the remotest risk of actually coming into contact with any of these frightful working class people, patriotic or otherwise.

    More of this then….

    The same old bussed-in Tory sycophants waving their little placards. She says she’s in the north east. She could be in Syria, Acapulco, or the surface of the ****ing moon

    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..
    Strong and stable…..

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    The same old bussed-in Tory sycophants waving their little placards

    That’s not really a Tory thing though is it, pretty sure most political parties the world over are doing that.

    ctk
    Full Member

    It would be good if the media chose not to report this type of shite.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    fifeandy – Member
    That’s not really a Tory thing though is it, pretty sure most political parties the world over are doing that.

    well farrons keeping it real or those ranty OAP brexies are slipping through the lib dem checks 😉

    Corbs gets mobbed by the local mommentum cell every time hes out and about

    Maybot has taken this to new extremes with a hermitcaly sealed campaign, selectively targeting specific groups

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2017/05/believe-it-or-not-tories-are-running-energetic-election-campaign-you-just

    also very interesting to note that Johnson is being very tightly controlled, hes like a MOAB deployed only in very specific circumstances lest he incurs significant collateral damage

    kerley
    Free Member

    It would be good if the media chose not to report this type of shite.

    It would be even better if the media completely stayed out of politics. Reporting is one thing, putting forward biased/one-sided opinion as fact is another….

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    It would be even better if the media completely stayed out of politics. Reporting is one thing, putting forward biased/one-sided opinion as fact is another….

    +1

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    I’m very saddened by the current state of the BBC.

    Terrified to rock the boat, the commitment to equality of representation has been abandoned.

    During the Thatcher years her governments were held to account, even Blair was pilloried over God, war and dossiers.

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