Fare-Dodger 'may' take legal action……

I don’t really expect people who don’t actually know me to think they have the right to judge me in any sense, tbh. Who are they to judge me?

after all your years here you expect the court of STW to be non judgemental …beginers mistake fella 😉

There is also a distinction between judging behaviour (eg a post) and an individual. As you say, people do not have the right to judge others but they do have the right to judge and comment on other’s posts. IMHO of course.

Its similar non violent offence with a similar fine level

No TJ.

Fraud can lead to prison.

Parking offence can lead to a fine.

I appreciate your point about the non-violence and so on, but the threat of assault is not the only grounds for use of force. Reasonable force can be used to prevent a crime. A parking offence is not a criminal offence ergo not a crime. If the big man stood up in court and said he removed him from the train because he thought he was going to assault the conductor we would rightly say bullshit, there was no grounds to believe that was about to happen. But that’s not the only justification available.

It’s because of people being too liberal that the youth of today get away with so much. Fare dodging scrote knew fine well the old conductor couldn’t do much, so tried to take advantage. In my experience the police are powerless, and are only their to solve crimes and not prevent them.

Example. Groups of yoofs used to congregrate in the cul de sac my parents lived in. Shouting, swearing and damaging cars etc. When the police were called, they’d come round and move them on. Never mind the scratched cars etc. This went on for months, every weekend.

One night the youths were back and were rocking a neighbours caravan. My mum called the police, and the neighbour was out telling them to to leave his caravan alone. Half a dozen of them turned on him, so my mum and dad went out to help him. My mum walked with a stick and my dad told her to stay in. They shoved my mum over so my dad seen red. By the time the police come,most of the youths had scarpered, my dad had kicked the shit out of 2 of them and was holding them, and the neighbour had done the same to a third. They had sticks and bottles they were going to attack my dad and neighbour with.

Outcome? My dad and his neighbour got done with assault. Little bastards!

Now fair dodger isn’t as bad as these little babwbags, but the law doesn’t always work and common sense should prevail. If the police had dealt with the youths properly in the first place, it wouldn’t have got out of hand. Fair dodger will hopefully now be a nicer member of society and buy a bloody ticket next time!

The problem here is simple, in that for some time now we have failed to teach our kids that there is a relationship between their actions and the consequences of those actions. For that reason in a way the kid wasn’t at fault, but in the greater scheme of things I like to look on it as the big guy reconnecting the said disconnect, so well done him.

Would people’s reaction have been different if instead of Big Man we had wee granny hitting (abusing?) the fare dodger with her handbag?

Outcome? My dad and his neighbour got done with assault. Little bastards!

Charged, or convicted? And whereabouts?

The problem here is simple, in that for some time now we have failed to teach our kids that there is a relationship between their actions and the consequences of those actions

yeah.. cos no-one ever committed crime or misbehaved when it was the norm to assault children.. 🙄

I’m sure that George Laval Chesterton, Governor of the House of Correction at Cold bath Fields, London would have written about it in his 1856 book ‘Revelations of Prison Life’

thegreatape – Member

Its similar non violent offence with a similar fine level

No TJ.

Reasonable cause can be used to prevent a crime, such as fraud. A parking offence is not a criminal offence ergo not a crime. If the big man stood up in court and said he removed him from the train because he thought he was going to assault the conductor we would rightly say bullshit, there was no grounds to believe that was about to happen. But that’s not the only justification available.

Any force used must be commensurate and proportionate – hence teh big mans actions fail the test.

He is committing a more serious crime to prevent a lessor one Not commensurate or proportionate

Is fare dodging fraud ? i wouldn’t have thought so.

Would people’s reaction have been different…..

Yes they would.

Because it’s a different situation, so they would react in a different way.

Simple

(legally, it’s the same though)

my dad had kicked the shit out of 2 of them and was holding them, and the neighbour had done the same to a third.

Reasonable force that is the minimum needed,is commensurate and proportionate? This is the test.

Is fare dodging fraud ? i wouldn’t have thought so.

Yes it is.

Any force used must be commensurate and proportionate – hence teh big mans actions fail the test.

He is committing a more serious crime to prevent a lessor one Not commensurate or proportionate

In your opinion.

Go back a page and consider the analogy I proposed.

It must be nice in some peoples kitten filled, rainbow adorned, fluffy cloud worlds… wish I lived there.

Ive been “assaulted” as a child a couple of times by the police and teachers, and I feel better for it, I learned a lesson.

I certainly didnt go home and get my dad to claim assault.

Minimum force needed should have been legs broken and face smashed in. They got of a lot lighter than that. Burst noses and sore ribs was what they got.

This happend in Scotland and they were charged not convicted. They still spent a night in the cells!

Fraud can lead to prison.

fare dodging isn’t fraud.

It’s because of people being too liberal that the youth of today get away with so much.

The youth of today don’t get away with any more than they always have done, in fact life seems far more restrictive than I remember from my youth. Its just a stupid fear that has grown through tabloid sensationalism about youth activities.
Youth gangs terrorised industrial towns in the 19th and early 20th century’s. WWII was a boon for criminal activities, mods and rockers fought on the beeches at seaside towns in the 60’s, there were far worst riots in the 80’s than we have seen over the past couple of years.
The past isn’t the false utopia many seem to believe.

yeah.. cos no-one ever committed crime or misbehaved when it was the norm to assault children..

Fair point, but then I do think you’ll find that by the same token youth street gangs, weren’t able to operate with impunity either.

fare dodging isn’t fraud

It is in Scotland.

Freeundred! 😀

Din’t pay for it either…

I do think you’ll find that by the same token youth street gangs, weren’t able to operate with impunity either.

Then:

The youth of today don’t get away with any more than they always have done, in fact life seems far more restrictive than I remember from my youth. Its just a stupid fear that has grown through tabloid sensationalism about youth activities.

This, basically. I hung about in a ‘street gang’ when I was a yute, and as you’ve learned, I was not the nice perfect well-behaved law-abiding child society probbly wooduv liked me to be. To my eternal shame, I spose, at least I think I’m meant to be ashamed of the Sins Of My Past. Dunno.

Stuff happened then, stuff happens now. People got robbed, kids got stabbed, drugs were dealt and taken, the lot. It’s just that stuff gets reported a lot more now, by a media seeking attention-grabbing headlines all the time, instead of presenting a balanced, objective view of things.

I think things aren’t as bad as they used to be, in my Inner City Deprived Urban Area. Lower crime figures and stuff would support this onion.

Maybe things are actually so good these days, the worst thing people have to get their knickers in a twist over is someone dodging their fare on a train in Scotland….

Bastid!

Any force used must be commensurate and proportionate – hence teh big mans actions fail the test.

He is committing a more serious crime to prevent a lessor one Not commensurate or proportionate
In your opinion as a nurse. Funny, but BTP haven’t charged anyone yet, which would imply it’s maybe a bit less cut and dried than you seem to think – or maybe they’re trying to contact you for your expert opinion?

And given that you posted on here that you were removed from a job as a result of verbally abusing a female, it’s hardly surprising that you defend the bawbag’s right to abuse the train conductor.

Heh! And after all that work you put in, Jezza, then I come along and just ‘freeload’ it off you, without having any entitlement to it! 😆

(Acts with utter impunity. is not at all ashamed of despicable actions)

TJ – again – its not the same as the car, as the LAW says that reasonable force can be used to remove a non fare paying passenger from a train – clearly the LAW was written taking into account this type of situation, with someone who had been told to leave refusing to do so, and as a sanction the train guard is empowered with the force of the law to remove him

Your ONLY remaining complaint is that the person who used the force was not the train guard, but someone who acted on his behalf.

The force used WAS reasonable and commensurate.

And given that you posted on here that you were removed from a job as a result of verbally abusing a female,

errrmmmm – not quite what happened.

I doubt its in the public interest to charge the big man and I doubt he will be charged.

However I simply do not believe its right to use force in that situation. There was nothing that required the use of force. NO threat of violence, no crime to be prevented, no danger of the criminal running away.

Zulu so you claim.

However I simply do not believe its right to use force in that situation. There was nothing that required the use of force. NO threat of violence, no crime to be prevented, no danger of the criminal running away.

Are you chronically dense? There’s a policeman telling you that the youth was committing fraud, then you say there’s no crime being committed.

I claim what?

That the law says that the guard can use force to remove a non paying passenger?

I don’t claim that TJ – S24 of the railway bye-laws claims that 🙄