I dont feel the kid should have been allowed to travel without paying for the ticket.
whatever circumstances, he should have been ejected based purely on his language and attitude.
The old guy was not in a position to physically do it, so accepted help.

seems pretty simple and the greater good was seen to be done. (at least from the reaction of the passengers)

The bottom line is that he did what he felt was right at the time. We’ll see whether he was right or wrong to do that in the eyes of the law.

i don’t think there is much doubt though that no pay was in the wrong on several counts too, and i find his (constantly changing)version of events particularly distasteful.

Morally FD got what he deserved but and this is a big but this is all with hindsight.

What if the FD had some form of mental illness ?

There is no way the conductor should have said yes to big man intervening. He should have told him that he was dealing with it and not to get involved.

Conductor could not do his job and was out of his depth. Its sad but its the truth of the matter.

Its like the 15 year old that nicked my bike, he had a real full on fight with the police when they caught him, it took three officers to get him in the van, and yet he claims he was assaulted.
And I mean the first officer tackled him off the bike, the kids reaction wasnt to start running it was to square up and start throwing punches.

Sorry but anyone can claim assault but Im tired of it.

Conductor could not do his job and was out of his depth

what else would you have him do?

EDIT – we’ve been over this ad nauseum already so unless its a revolutionary idea not posted above, then i dont think there is anything else he could have done. He may have refused to accept the passengers help in getting him off the train, but that doesn’t mean events wouldn’t have played out as they did.

and yet he claims he was assaulted

He can claim whatever he likes, can’t he? It’s whether or not his claims are justified that is the problem. I don’t expect a bike thief (or a fare dodger for that matter) are very keen on accepting responsibility for their actions so he’s likely to try every excuse in the book I reckon.

According to some he should have not made a fuss and let him go as what if he had been;
a – a woman
b – a pregnant woman
c – mental problems
d – old

etc etc

one from personal experience here..

many years ago when I was still a tiny wee pimple on the arse of society, me and an associate were trying to steal a pair of jeans from C&A.. (I’d been sent into town by my mum with cash for new jeans and I had spunked it on hash and cider)

long story short.. we got chased through the streets by store detectives until I was forcefully apprehended by a large and capable member of the public.. the broken fingers and cuts and bruises didn’t hurt even half as much as getting frogmarched back to the shop through a mile of appreciative onlookers.. I don’t think that I can honestly say that I turned my life around that day but it certainly made me think twice about choring stuff from shops..

we used to think it was us against the world when we were lads.. and that we were invincible and could act with impunity.. I think that sometimes you need to realise that the world is more than capable of fighting back..

EDIT – we’ve been over this ad nauseum already so unless its a revolutionary idea not posted above already, then i dont think there is anything else he could have done.

I told you what I thought he should have done. It really did not matter that much if BTP were at the next stop, he would have been on CCTV and he should have been pursued this way.

I have to assume that ScotRail have a procedure for this and I am guessing it does not involve help from a member of the public.

I think he worried too much about him “getting away with it” so much so he forgot about the safety and service to the paying customers on the train.

Yunki, nice one. Good of you to share an experience from the flip side of the coin…

“a procedure for this”
I love that mentality.

I think that sometimes you need to realise that the world is more than capable of fighting back..

Exactly !

But they need to be allowed to fight back otherwise we’re ****.

“a procedure for this”
I love that mentality.

Care to elaborate ?

many years ago when I was still a wee little pimple on the arse of society, me and an associate were trying to steal a pair of jeans from C&A.. (I’d been sent into town by my mum with cash for new jeans and I had spunked it on hash and cider)

😆

Why did you not do the ‘take two pairs into the changing room and put one pair under your baggy jeans then put the other pair back on’t shelf’ trick?

I remember being chased down Oxford St by two big security guards; being small and agile gave me a massive advantage in the dense crowds, and helped me evade capture. I ended up by an upstairs floor window in I think it mightuv bin Olympus Sport, laughing my head off as the two big lumps wandered around outside, scratching their heads. 😀

No Pay 2, Big Men 0.

And the couple of times I’ve bin stopped by ticket inspectors without a ticket, I’ve just given a false name and addy. Simples. 🙂

Well put Yunki, trouble is there are too many dogooders looking for a reason to justify his behaviour when the long and short of it is he was a prat and living in these parts you know if you behave like that at some point you will be challenged about it, and for all that are going on about what if he was old/pregnant/mental health issues well he wasn’t, ( as my old gaffer would say ‘if your mum had a c£*% she would be your dad’)

The produres for this, the police, they are all there because WE THE PEOPLE authorise them to enforce the law of the land on our behalf. When they are not available, there are situations that I feel that as a member of civilised society, I am morally obliged to step in, if I can do so safely and capably. I should imagine that big man felt similar. It’s not about the legal definition of assault, or who’s job it is, it’s about knowing right from wrong. In my opinion.

avoid a decision, and let someone else take the blame.

the im just doing my job culture,
there’s a procedure for that,

partly why a lady died in a hole whilst fire crews were prevented from saving her life.

they didnt have a procedure, they had to wait for the right equipment etc, it stops people applying common sense to a situation.

Bollox in my view, I hate it with a passion.

No Pay 2, Big Men 0.

our usual trick was to go in mob handed and help ourselves to armfuls.. there would be so many of us it was like someone had emptied a bucket of psychotic rats into the shop..

we were a bit short-staffed that day however..

well isnt Elfin so great for getting away with it.

good on you Elfin for stealing.
Im glad you feel so smug for stealing from someone and getting away with it.

You remind me of the 15 year old who tried to steal my bike. or the guys trying to break in to my shop.

It’s good to know there are people on here that feel good that they can get away with theft.

Conductor could not do his job and was out of his depth. Its sad but its the truth of the matter.

You are not the only person to have made that assertion, but I’ve still not heard what alternative action the conductor should have taken when presented with an abusive passenger who doesn’t have a valid ticket and claims to have no money? He’s 4 minutes from the passenger’s intended destination, and 30+ minutes from BTP support.

So far the only answers I’ve heard are: “Wait for BTP” which is fine but disrupts not only the 100 people on that train but about 600 travelling on that line in general. “Let him go” – not much point on having ticket inspectors if you just need to get lippy to not have to pay. CCTV isn’t going to prove he was travelling without a valid ticket, or that he was being abusive on the train, even if it was good enough to ID him.

The best answer was ‘put his bag on the platform’ – but I can see him lashing out in that process whereas he was restrained as he was removed.

A similar thing happened when I was on the train. He had a sob story about his wallet being nicked. I was feeling rather unwell and eager to get home so I gave the bloke the money for his ticket and we all got home on time.

Ironically, the guy who filmed it said he was about to offer to pay for his ticket for him (a whole £3.60!) when the young guy kicked off with the swearing etc – and that is when he started filming. If he had seemed genuinely remoreseful, apologetic or even admitted he had been confused at all then no only would the other passengers have probably found enough small change to cover his ticket but the ticket inspector has I believe the discression to allow him to travel, complete a form and pay (full fare and possibly a penalty) later.

laughing my head off as the two big lumps wandered around outside, scratching their heads.

No Pay 2, Big Men 0.

And the couple of times I’ve bin stopped by ticket inspectors without a ticket, I’ve just given a false name and addy. Simples.

I’m sure it’s of no interest to you, but you’ve just lost a lot of my respect. Still boasting about it, eh? 😐

t’s good to know there are people on here that feel good that they can get away with theft.

I don’t think he’s off on a spree this afternoon though is he..!?

he’s barely capable of riding a pushbike these days.. let alone evading capture in a busy high street..

I’m sure it’s of no interest to you, but you’ve just lost a lot of my respect. Still boasting about, eh

Yup. Me too.

The produres for this, the police, they are all there because WE THE PEOPLE authorise them to enforce the law of the land on our behalf

So the Germans are in charge of us after all?

So the Germans are in charge of us after all?

rather have ‘das crazy BMX Volks’ in charge than some of the scary not my problem handwringing nimbys on here… 😆

Yunki, it’s not his admission, I think it’s the proud tone that it came across with. Yours didn’t. I know where they’re coming from, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now, he has got an, ummm, inimitable style of prose.

I still got no answer to this:

those of you that think it was acceptable for the big man to get involved., is it acceptable for me to use force to remove a car that is parked illegally?

well isnt Elfin so great for getting away with it.

good on you Elfin for stealing.
Im glad you feel so smug for stealing from someone and getting away with it.

I was about fourteen or fifteen. Shoplifting was a bit of a ‘phase’ I went through; I did it for the buzz more than anything.

As for ‘feeling smug’; as a kid I spose I did feel a sense of ‘power’ having got one over the two big guards. Probbly something to do with the natural rebelliousness of yute, the wanting to show authority I coon’t be controlled, that sort of thing. Y’know, the kind of thing most kids go through…

What I won’t do, is feel guilty nearly 25 years later about something I did as a misguided, misdirected yute. Cos it’s done, no going back now and undoing it, is there? And why waste energy and emotion feeling full of guilt, if I don’t need to? In the past, done, dusted.

I’m sure it’s of no interest to you, but you’ve just lost a lot of my respect.

Whatever. If you want to judge me by mistakes I made twenty five years ago, up to you I spose.

I don’t think he’s off on a spree this afternoon though is he..!?

he’s barely capable of riding a pushbike these days.. let alone evading capture in a busy high street..

😆 I’d mess meself if I even thought about shoplifting these days. My bottle went many years ago. As for the fare-evasion thing; well there were times when I just coon’t afford the fare to get to college or wherever, and me bike weren’t working/had bin nicked, so I bunked the fare. Hardly a crime in the same league as the Brinks Mat Robbery…

London Transport seems to still be running (and making a profit too!) in spite of my attempts to bring it to it’s financial knees…

our usual trick was to go in mob handed and help ourselves to armfuls.. there would be so many of us it was like someone had emptied a bucket of psychotic rats into the shop..

Ah, ‘Steaming’. I always operated alone, far more effective, individually speaking. In fact, I only ever got propperly caught once, and only chased about two or three times. Which, considering how prolific I was, was pretty remarkable considering. 😀

Oh and I’ve paid for other people’s tickets when they’ve had no money, given people a bit of change in a supermarket when they’ve bin a few pence short, that sort of thing. Am I redeemed?

Or doomed to be forever condemned by the Self Righteous Never Done Nuffink Wrong Me Whole Life Honest To God Guv Brigade?

*Sigh*

TJ, talk is cheap.

Just Go for it, if you think it’s the right thing to do ?

See what happens.

Just like Big Man did.

People will have lots of differing opinions on it I’m sure (after the event)

Elfin – ok, so you dont need to feel guilty perhaps but some remorse/reflection might not go amiss.

Plus gloating about juvenile criminality is probably taking it too far. Silly posts, perhaps?

TJ – still harping on about irrelevant factors.

Its settled FACT that there was an existing legal power for the scrote to be removed by force from the train.

The only possible issue you can raise here, is WHO used the force.

I don’t think it is TJ.

I’m not sure it’s a great analogy, for the reasons I put earlier.

If you consider a different one…

You see a youth in your neighbours shed committing theft (like the big man saw a youth in the train committing fraud).

You see your neighbour tell him to clear off and get verbal abuse from the youth (like the big man saw the conductor tell him to get off the train and get abuse back).

You go down to help, and because the youth won’t get out of your neighbours shed you take hold of him and remove him, to stop him committing theft (like the ‘big man’ took hold of the youth and took him off the train to stop him committing fraud).

The youth struggles, so you pull him a bit harder until you manage to get him out of the shed (like the big man pushed him a bit harder to get him off the train when he was struggling).

You help your neighbour, the big man helped the conductor. Now I don’t know what you think about my shed analogy, I’m sure you will be able to find reasons why it’s different, but you can see how looking at it from a different perspective can lead to different conclusions, can you not?

Elfin – ok, so you dont need to feel guilty perhaps but some remorse/reflection might not go amiss.

See, compared to other stuff what was going on in me life at that time, some petty theft is not something I’m going to bother wasting emotion over. I’m indifferent to it. Neither proud nor ashamed. I just wish I cooduv found something else that acted as an ‘escape route’ at that time, tbh. something more positive and nurturing.

But carry on judging, eh?

Statistically, there’s possibly one or two people on here whatuv nonced kids and that. I doubt any of them will be coming forward and being quite as open about their flawed character, somehow. No matter how sanctimonious they may act…

<cough> Lazytown Thread </Cough> 😉

Not really being judgemental – merely suggesting that reflection might be more appropriate than gloating after all these years. The first post was hardly indifferent in tone. Hence my last comment on the post (not you!)

What I’m seeing here is a sad attitude of ‘not my problem’ dressed up as legal justification. The same attitude that sees people walk on by when someone is getting abused or assaulted on the street.

What i am seeing is someone adding up 2 + 2 and making 7
It is also a non sequitor

there are too many dogooders looking for a reason to justify his behaviour

and too many folk willing to condone force as an appropriate respons eto any situation they dont approve of.

elf we have all done things we are ashamed of/not proud of but you seem indifferent to your “criminal” past – this is your business as far as I am concerned but you cannot really expect people to not judge you/your morality on this.

those of you that think it was acceptable for the big man to get involved., is it acceptable for me to use force to remove a car that is parked illegally?

OK, to indulge this TJ tangent, I suspect that you probably wouldn’t be allowed to do this, for reasons of the special law that you mentioned before, TWOC. If it wasn’t for that specific legistlation, then if you reeeealy wanted to I’m sure that if you wanted to get yourself one of these sling lift thingies

Then you could use (hydraulic) force to move someones car from an illegal spot to a legal one. People might think you a bit umm, eccentric, mind you.

Not really being judgemental – merely suggesting that reflection might be more appropriate than gloating after all these years.

I am being ‘reflective’. I’m remembering the buzz I got from having one over the security guards. Little Elf against The System, if you like. And I’m thinking about how it mightuv bin preferable if I’d bin able to get the same buzz, the same sense of satisfaction from a more positive activity.

Was funny though at the time. 😆 Spose you had to be there really…

elf we have all done things we are ashamed of/not proud of but you seem indifferent to your “criminal” past – this is your business as far as I am concerned but you cannot really expect people to not judge you/your morality on this.

I don’t really expect people who don’t actually know me to think they have the right to judge me in any sense, tbh. Who are they to judge me? How honest and without blemish are they themselves? Just cos they jolly well have not bin open about their pasts, does not in any way necessarily make them as Pure As The Driven Snow.

TandemJeremy – Member

I still got no answer to this:

those of you that think it was acceptable for the big man to get involved., is it acceptable for me to use force to remove a car that is parked illegally?

Depends what you mean by ‘force’. Using a couple of trolley jacks to wheel it out of the way is totally fine in my opinion if for instance they park on your driveway and block your car in so you can’t get out, and you have no other way to move it (contact the owners etc).

Who are they to judge me? How honest and without blemish are they themselves? Just cos they jolly well have not bin open about their pasts, does not in any way necessarily make them as Pure As The Driven Snow.

I’m not “without blemish” by any means. And did, once or twice, nick stuff. Only little things but that’s not the point.

But if I think back to the stuff I used to do when I was younger, it makes me cringe.

Whereas you seemed to delight in telling your tale, and you told it with what seemed like a sense of pride.
(could be mistaken, but that’s the way it seemed)

I am talking about manhadling the driver in a similar way to the way the big man manhandles the fare dodger.

Its similar non violent offence with a similar fine level, the remedy is similar. for the train fare dodger you seem to think manhandling him off th train is fine. its a car parked illegally part blocking a pavement and part blocking a road – causing buses to get stuck and people to have difficulty getting along the pavement.

can I use force to take make teh car driver move the car? Take the keys off him so I can move it? Use my car to tow it away?