F1 2021 – spoilers here

I thought it was interesting in that clip up there ^^^ that Karun popped a number of clips in of Max giving Lewis zero room.

Look at what happened a couple of corners before. LH was fully ahead of Max at the entry however Max had the inside line and Lewis, instead of turning in to claim the apex, backed off as it was Max’s corner at that point by virtue of having the inside. A similar ruling was made a couple of races ago where the driver on the outside was penalised as the car on the inside has ‘right of way’ so to speak.

Max had been doing a fair amount of squeezing and weaving which was just about in the rules down the straights as well. Ultra aggressive stuff – good to watch but I agree when LH says when you drive like that it sometimes won’t go your way.

For CH to say well this is different because it’s Copse and one simply doesn’t drive up the inside at Copse is bollocks. Max would have made exactly the same move as LH and had there been contact Red Bull would be saying LH turned in on him.

50/50 in my book however given race control had Horner on the blower alleging LH of attempted murder etc I think they caved a little bit.

Got to let these guys race a bit otherwise there’s no point turning up. It does set the second half of the season up though. Will Max get even more aggressive, will LH continue to hold his line, will LH’s experience of closing a championship out under pressure help and Max start to flap a bit? Going to be really interesting.

It seems that most of the other drivers think it was a racing incident. I’m not sure it was disrespectful to celebrate, everyone was asking how Max was and they were told he walked out of the car, going to hospital was purely precautionary.

I would also add that throughout his career LH has always admitted when he was in the wrong. Even against Albon when immediately after the event he said it was a racing incident he reviewed it and held his hands up and said it was his fault. Can’t see it being any different this time round to be honest.

Interesting reading the comments of the other drivers too. None of them have come out and said it’s nailed on either Max or LH’s fault and they are usually the best judges in these scenarios.

It seems that most of the other drivers think it was a racing incident

That’s going to make the next driver’s briefing interesting – I’m sure Masi will raise it with them and go through the rules that Toto has mentioned, so there will probably be the 4 RedBull drivers with a different opinion to the other 16. Or 15 as Kimi won’t give a **** either way.

I am tiring of the C4 Red Bull commentary team and constant interviews with christian Horner.

If there was a another way to watch without paying Sky I would do it.

I think that team representatives/principals haranguing the officials is very distasteful and something the FIA needs to stamp out. Toto sending emails and insisting the recipient reads them during the race, having clearly been told that won’t be happening, and CH bleating his side of the story, in both cases not even to the right person, is just ridiculous.

First of all, it looked like a heavy impact for Max and I am relieved that he’s okay.

Karun Chandhok’s analysis tells us a little more about the incident – Max appeared to turn in on an understeering Lewis and paid the price. Lewis wasn’t entirely blame free – it was a risky move and he could have left more space.

I thought Karun’s summary was pretty spot on. Max’s style of driving is “aggressive” as both he and CH put it. And he does seem to have developed a very strong and deliberate style of intimidation, some of which can be considered “strong” and some of it is just stepping beyond that line. As has been mentioned, they were going at it from the start and Hamilton did back off a couple of times and gave him space. This time though he had so much more momentum, Max still tried to squeeze him into the pit wall and I think the main reason Hamilton had come out was to try and give himself a shot at making the apex. Max then turned in too quickly and too strongly – not sure where or how he expected Hamilton to go. I felt the penalty for Hamilton was a bit harsh but in the end he overcame it with a quiet sensational last 15 laps or so. Again, as much as I like Bottas, he just wasn’t really at the races again today. Wasn’t really putting the pressure on Lando and allowing Le Clerc to get away.

I hope the incident makes Max think a little more about the way he drives but I suspect it won’t. Maybe though, he will think twice before trying to squeeze Hamilton too hard.

CH is just an annoying windbag at times though. Funny how the Imola incident (when Max basically slapped Hamilton on the corner) from his perspective is “just hard racing and if you don’t like it you need to consider whether racing is your thing” and yet yesterday’s incident is “totally out of order” and “desperate”.

The was an interview in the very first Rapha magazine with either Thor Hushvod or Mangus Backstedt (other spellings are available) where they were talking about being your man’s main sprint lead-out and they said along the lines of

‘Your racing 60-70kph and winding up for the sprint. Another guy tries to take your piece of road so you have two choices – you give them the space or you choose to crash. So, you choose to crash because if you give them space next day they will take the space again but if you crash they’ll think twice’.

I think yesterday was basically the F1 version of that. Yes LH could have backed off but he would have had to do so much earlier as it all happened so quickly. In fact the point at which he would have need to have backed off would have been when he was fully along side Max. But if he had backed off Max would have done the same next race (as he has proven time and time again).

All LH did was hold his line – and rightly so…

Max appeared to turn in on an understeering Lewis and paid the price. Lewis wasn’t entirely blame free – it was a risky move and he could have left more space.

Right. Which is a classic racing incident. They both have the option to fold but they’re both still random sing each other.

Karen’s clip compilation is interesting: plenty of times Max has barrelled up the inside of Lewis—most notably Barcelona—and Lewis has chosen to fold and play the long game. But that was when he wasn’t more than a race win behind in the standings. This time Max simply found out that Lewis didn’t fold.

Welcome to racing the best drivers in the world: they don’t get paid tens of millions to back down in a fight.

Let’s see what happens if they end up facing off at Eau Rouge… 🙂

Welcome to racing the best drivers in the world: they don’t get paid tens of millions to back down in a fight.

Was it Senna who said the day you don’t go for a gap is the day you should retire? As LH said in his interview yesterday – he isn’t going to back down for anyone 🙂

Let’s see how Max handles real pressure against a driver that ain’t going to put up with his shit any more. LH can afford for them to come together again I think more than Max can…

Horner really did lay it on thick. He managed to stop short of accusing Lewis of attempted murder, but only just!

I think the penalty was fair. Max has defended early so Lewis has a choice. He could have stuck to the outside line, although he knows instinctively that this will mean Max can just run him wide on the exit of Copse. Instead Lewis has chosen a line at corner entry that will make it difficult to make the corner without running into Max, but I’d day it was “optimistic” rather than “desperate”.

Lewis could have backed out slightly earlier and avoided the collision. Max could have opened up the steering and also avoided the collsion, but he is the one with track position so is entitled to take the normal line.

So I think on balance a bit more blame falls on Lewis. There are, I think, three penalties the stewards can hand out during a race. 5 Second Time Penalty, 10 Second Time Penalty and a 10 Second Stop-Go penalty. They’ve gone for the middle options, given the above it seems fair.

But if he had backed off Max would have done the same next race (as he has proven time and time again).

Yup. One of the things that most impressed me with Verstappen in his first season was his car positioning. It was incredibly Senna-like and he rapidly built that reputation as someone who would be the last to back down in those fights—a seriously impressive feat for any rookie, let alone one so young.

But back then Max was in a Toro Rosso and wasn’t in a position to deny anyone a championship. Now he’s getting the firm response that he didn’t get when he arrived because none of the midfield guys really needed to deliver it.

Of course, he won’t be chastened by this. Nor should he. He’ll still go all-in, because that’s what it’s going to take in order for either of them to beat the other.

Which is great 🙂

Was it Senna who said the day you don’t go for a gap is the day you should retire?

Yeah, it always comes up on these occasions, but we do have to remember that he said it to try and pretend that taking Prost out at Suzuka was a racing incident, when he (and everyone else) knew full well it wasn’t.

I think it was the first corner where Lewis had the inside line and squeezed Max out wide, Max just went of the track and carried on, he could have made the same choice at Copse as there is tarmac runoff (I think Leclerc chose this option later when Lewis passed him). It would have been wise from Max as he was in the faster car and likely could have won anyway. I guess he’s not used to being in the fastest car and needs to change his mindset slightly to think big picture.

Max appeared to turn in on an understeering Lewis and paid the price.

Absolutely this – he made two sharp turns of his steering wheel when he knew Hamilton was there and paid the price.

Yeah, it always comes up on these occasions, but we do have to remember that he said it to try and pretend that taking Prost out at Suzuka was a racing incident, when he (and everyone else) knew full well it wasn’t

Suzuka was completely different. Last race of the season and if neither driver finished Senna was champion and the way he went into the side of Prost there was no mistaking his intent. Lewis didn’t spearhead Max in the radiator and Max could easily have avoided contact.

At the corner entry they were side by side too so Max knew he was there. With Prost/Senna – Senna was behind when Prost turned in and made no attempt at all to do anything other than take them both out.

Senna even said before the race he was going to do it, it was only after the event he claimed ‘racing incident m’lud’. He would not have got away with it these days.

I think this was much more a case of Max getting as good as he gives and for once coming off worse.

The ‘whose fault is it?’ question is obvious but not really what interests me. I know that’s how the press tend to frame these things but for me it’s more a reflection on how Max HAD to beat Lewis today, on every lap, and every corner. That smacks of needing to prove something.

Lewis is cannier than that. Watch Rosberg vs Lewis Bahrain 2014. He can concede a corner and still win the race. Max is going to have be smart to beat Lewis, and that’s not what he was this time.

I was kinda ambivalent about Red Bull/CH and Max, was thinking CH had managed to control Max a bit and he was maturing as a driver. However it’s clear that CH wasn’t doing that, he will just defend his drivers no matter how much he has to exaggerate and forget what has happened at previous races (he wasn’t called CrashTappen for no reason). A nasty piece of work just like Max and his dad.
And the result of all this is that Lewis has had to endure an increasing amount of racist abuse, the flames of which have been fanned by CH and MV a great deal.

I’m afraid I’ll be one of those people cheering when MV goes off in the future. The whole team stinks.

LH has always said he will drive within the rules – his problem with the rules in the past has been that they have never been applied consistently. I was hoping they were starting to put things more down to racing incidents recently but that change appears to have been reversed with the George Russell (3 grid places FFS!!!!) and LH penalties.

Horner’s bleating really does him few favours. He wouldn’t be the first team principal to be guilty of that (Ron Dennis), he should also remember that the only other seven time world champ twice nerfed opponents off the track.

Absolutely this – he made two sharp turns of his steering wheel when he knew Hamilton was there and paid the price.

You’ve got to remember the time delta here though. At the first turn in MV was going for the racing line, he didn’t know where LH was. When he noticed the Merc alongside, he backed off the steering. The second, what people are seeing as aggressive turn-in, is at least in part due to the fact that they’re substantially further into the corner and MV now needs more lock to get around the corner without going off line and loosing too much speed. Lewis by this point is too fast and at too shallow an angle to carry as much speed into the corner and so has to brake earlier. MV turns across the nose of LH, just as LH starts to get his understeer under control. MV accelerates around the front of LHs car, but LH isn’t turning as much as MV as he’s again fighting understeer. MV overlaps LH front wheel and it’s contact and a spin.

Just a racing incident. Once again, the kerbs and the near useless gravel traps make for a big accident whereas the funny sandpaper at Paul Ricard woul’d likely have slowed MV much more.

Always we see cars launched by a kerb and then skipping like a stone on water over the gravel.

What it *does* prove, and it’s far from the first incident to do so, is that if you’re going to buy a ticket for Silverstone, you should buy one for Copse 😀

For CH to say well this is different because it’s Copse and one simply doesn’t drive up the inside at Copse is bollocks. Max would have made exactly the same move as LH and had there been contact Red Bull would be saying LH turned in on him.

However it’s clear that CH wasn’t doing that, he will just defend his drivers no matter how much he has to exaggerate and forget what has happened at previous races

It’s the same in any sport when there’s foul play. Coaches and managers have to put on a public display of supporting their team even when they know that their side is guilty as sin. Nobody takes what they say seriously.

You write much that makes lots of sense apart from

he didn’t know where LH was

He knew exactly where Hamilton was – just before the corner they were almost alongside each other but Verstappen chose to turn in anyway, hoping that Hamilton would pull out of the move (like he did in the sprint race on Saturday in very similar circumstances).

 he will just defend his drivers no matter

Good, that’s what you want in the fight for the Championship, a boss (that in public at least) fights like a bulldog in your corner. Nowt wrong with that.

There is no doubt about MV’s speed but he’s still making clumsy mistakes. He could have avoided that and he probably had the speed to win over the race but chose to try and force Lewis into backing out, except lewis was basically too committed. It even looks as if Lewis is trying to back out but then isn’t given room.

Max has previously said something about ‘if you don’t concede we’ll collide’ type thing. I’m sure other drivers have made the same comments. Ultimately he lost 25 points.

Lando and Leclerc managed to not crash despite being passed in the same corner, so you can pass there. Horner was being a jerk saying you cant pass there. I get he’s frustrated but some professionalism now and again may help.

also agree with C4 Red Bull bias. Great team but know who their paymasters are!

Max had much more downforce adn thus a much higher apex speed. Hamilton took too much speed in and understeered into max

When the hit max had given him a car and a half width – lewis missed the apex thats why lewis got the small penalty

Just another way of seeing it.

Good, that’s what you want in the fight for the Championship, a boss (that in public at least) fights like a bulldog in your corner.

There is robustly defending your driver and then there is accusing other drivers of stuff that didn’t actually happen. Toto defended Lewis but didn’t say Max was a mass murderer and had just made the worst, most dangerous move even seen in F1.

Lando and Leclerc managed to not crash despite being passed in the same corner, so you can pass there.

Yes =- and the man on the inside hit the apex and didn’t run wide with understeer.

He knew exactly where Hamilton was

But he didn’t really. He would’ve expected Hamilton to be heading towards the apex, he wouldn’t have had a clue that he was understeering and following an odd path as a result (hence the FIA explanation)

dannybgoode
Full Member
There is robustly defending your driver and then there is accusing other drivers of stuff that didn’t actually happen. Toto defended Lewis but didn’t say Max was a mass murderer and had just made the worst, most dangerous move even seen in F1.

No, he was busy attempting to send info to Masi via a private means. Doubt he’d CC’d anyone at Red Bull and didn’t hear that he visited the stewards with his evidence as Masi suggested

No, he was busy attempting to send info to Masi via a private means. Doubt he’d CC’d anyone at Red Bull and didn’t hear that he visited the stewards with his evidence as Masi suggested

I am on about about the interviews afterwards. CH was way way over the top of his criticism of Lewis. Toto kept a much cooler head

Of course he did, he’d just won the race. He’s not going to bring more attention to the event when he can’t possibly benefit any more.

Basically, they are all sneaky ****ers and would sell their Grannies if they thought it would get them the upper hand

Good, that’s what you want in the fight for the Championship, a boss (that in public at least) fights like a bulldog in your corner. Nowt wrong with that.

The way MV and CH have reacted here is not the way champions go about their business – it smacks of fear and an inferiority complex.

Surprised nobody had posted this yet. Crowd reaction seems pretty normal, they all know it’s a biggie

The way MV and CH have reacted here is not the way champions go about their business – it smacks of fear and an inferiority complex.

Yep.

Max Verstappen unfollows Lewis Hamilton on Instagram after British Grand Prix crash https://t.co/RPq8ad7NUI

— Express Sport (@DExpress_Sport) July 19, 2021

Surprised nobody had posted this yet. Crowd reaction seems pretty normal, they all know it’s a biggie

That’s the only exciting moment of the entire F1 day out.

^^^ OOft, shit just got real

I don’t see what’s odd about that crowd reaction.

Edit: not sure if you were meaning it was somehow odd or not. But it seems normal enough, like when someone drops a tray in a canteen some folks go way-hey.